FIAT and PSA Merger Approved By Shareholders

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FIAT and PSA Merger Approved By Shareholders

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Whilst it is described as a merger, it is more realistically a takeover of Fiat by PSA.
If future Fiats are just badge-engineered versions of Peugeots, like they've done with Vauxhall/Opel, then they could be doomed. At least with Skoda/Seat/VW/Audi the VAG group start with a decent base. PSA seem to have forgotten how to make decent cars, since the demise of the 205, 306 & 106. Vauxhall were always nicely engineered, if a little dull, but PSA like to do strange engineering.

We can hope that they'll let Fiat design the little cars, as they do best. Fiat badged larger cars on PSA platforms might actually be better than Fiat's recent attempts.

Time to look into the crystal ball, and stock up on all the parts we think we'll ever need to keep our current cars going until we die.
 

DaveMcT

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Hopefully it wont be like the Alstom "merger" with GEC. Where is the GEC name now?
 

AndyRKett

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Its done some significant damage to FCA share price since the market opened, might be time to spend a few quid and wait for it to recover

I think its hard to see what's going to happen at the moment. Obviously PSA carries huge weight in europe, and FCA do in the americas and asia with a relatively small business in europe by comparison. If I had to make a prediction it would be that fiat might disappear from Europe and be more of a developing countries brand in places like south America. I think we'll see Fiat dealerships being absorbed by Peugeot dealers before long.
 
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s130

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Yes all **** can happen now.

One thing I have admired the Italian engineering/automotive/motorcycle busineeses for is that generally they have supported and protected their businesses and brands at a country and International level until more recent times.

I think we can all think of Fiat, Lancia, Alfa, Maserati, Lambougini, Apriilia, Ducato, Moto Guzzi, Cagiva, ...... then all the others .... a very long list indeed.

Won't mention Ferarri .....

I'm not sure how the Italian public will respond to yet another dilution / loss of what they had prtected for so long?

Basically I guess the once passion for the Italian automotive / motorcycle / engineering/ design is very much dwindling in favour of German chocolot alternatives. I guess the French are feeling the same. How to take on Audi Group / Mercedes and BMW.

I've been going to Italy every year (Dolomites/Lakes/Norhtern Regions) for more years than I can remember and long ago just about every automabile, tractor, motorcycle, etc. ... was Italian. You would see very few Italian registered vehicles that were not of Italian make. Based on the last few years I would guess less than 50% were now Italian.

And here in the UK where Fiat/Italian/Jeep are probably only 5% or less in sales then things are really not looking very good for use Italian vehicle lovers.
 

The Panda Nut

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Its done some significant damage to FCA share price since the market opened, might be time to spend a few quid and wait for it to recover

I think its hard to see what's going to happen at the moment. Obviously PSA carries huge weight in europe, and FCA do in the americas and asia with a relatively small business in europe by comparison. If I had to make a prediction it would be that fiat might disappear from Europe and be more of a developing countries brand in places like south America. I think we'll see Fiat dealerships being absorbed by Peugeot dealers before long.

That will be the time I get shot and get something else for 2 of our 3 just keep the 4x4. Personally I intensely dislike PSA products even though I can see the logic. if not need for this move it will be the death of Fiat is all they are is badged Peugeots I cant see many current customers wanting to drive the far less interesting an entertaining PSA stuff. My Citroen years were the most appalling expensive motoring ever and I for 1 will never go back.
 

eeeno

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I agree that Fiat shouldn't adopt Peugeot's notoriously unreliable technology such as Puretech and THP engines and other strange engineering. Fiats from the same era seem to be very reliable whilst Peugeot or Citroen can be very expensive to keep. Maybe the italian pride of Fiat will keep it afloat in these difficult times.(y)

Maybe the car makers just need to share their electric vehicle technology and keep developing better electric cars of the future. However PSA has done well on the marketing and their cars sell, so let's just hope that Fiat can benefit from that.
 
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Fiat is a minor marque, with few dealers and a bad reputation for customer service. Anyone who has chosen to own a Fiat, has, by their actions, chosen NOT to own a Peugeot or Citroen. They have their reasons, and anyone at PSA who ignores those reasons will lose a customer.

I've always been happy with Vauxhall products, but now having driven the lastes Corsa, will not consider a Vauxhall again. It was horrible. Had it for half a day, mostly driven by someone else for training purposes, and that was still too much. If Fiat become badge-engineered Peugeots, there will be no reason to buy a newer one.

Slippery slope. I fear that driving in the future will become soulless. This will lead to worse driving, as people don't care. Reliance on automated vehicles will reduce expertise more, leading to serious problems at those moments when the automated car says, "over to you". Unless all our country lanes become two-way, normal width roads, and everyone has a designated parking spot, automation will still have times when it cannot cope. At that point, drivers will have very low skill levels.
 

DaveMcT

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FCA has spend huge sums buying CO2 credits from Tesla. Who knows, maybe its stood them in good position to buy Tesla batteries and control systems for use in Fiat cars. Fiat could certainly show Tesla a lot about how to make small cars people want to own (rather than rent).
 
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s130

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FCA has spend huge sums buying CO2 credits from Tesla. Who knows, maybe its stood them in good position to buy Tesla batteries and control systems for use in Fiat cars. Fiat could certainly show Tesla a lot about how to make small cars people want to own (rather than rent).

Well that would be very welcome.

Fiat have always excelled (IMHO) in the smaller car. 500, 600, 127, Uno, Panda, Strada, Tipo, Tempra (Tipo with with extensions).

Their more recent venture into the "B" market with Croma, larger Alfa models have not been a success. I had a Croma 2005 and liked the car and it was fairly reliable, but felt "different".

If Fiat can dominate the small car development in the merger then there is some hope.

Maybe the next versions of the 500 e, Panda e, 500X e will be world beaters, true to Fiat DNA and popular enough to maintain viability.
 

DaveMcT

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The Jeep Renegade is built on the same lines as the Fiat 500X. But the Jeep seems to be a success while the blobby style of the 500X has not really caught on. Fiat can do small cars but they do need help with the bigger stuff.

Regarding CO2 credits - Maybe Tesla said no to selling power trains, leaving FCA with no option.
 
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AndyRKett

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Fiat make smaller cars for a smaller budget, there are many companies now making electric car batteries and so for fiat there are probably a lot of cheaper options that tesla.

Tesla batteries are more energy dense than most other manufacturers and while they have sold batteries in the past it’s usually to high end companies like mercedes.

With the merger, I suspect any future plans will be based on the company as a whole and using the buying power of FCA and PSA to get a better deal.

The technology in Tesla’s probably a bit over board for your average fiat driver. Fiat will be using less powerful motors and will limit the power delivery, I can’t see fiat making a 500 themselves that will do 0-60 in around 3 seconds like a Tesla would, and I can’t see musk selling motors to a company that might use them in a “dumbed down” way which could effect the reputation of teslas motors
 

puntofan01

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I must admit, I think that if it's organised properly, and each collective set of engineers is able to swallow their pride and work together as 1 big team, this COULD work quite well, especially if they're able to give each model it's own identity. What could be tricky though is deciding which engines and platforms to use, until such time as new uniform hybrid/electric powertrains and platforms are developed: I believe that Vauxhall/Opel developed a brand new, state of the art platform for the current Astra, complete with new engines; Fiat have the existing platform in the Tipo and 500X, complete with fresh, high tech FireFly engines, as well as a fresh electric platform for the new 500.

There's also the other partnerships to take into account as well: I believe that Fiat work with Renault-Nissan and Mitsubishi in commercial vehicles, as well as the existing, and old, Ducato/Boxer/Relay collaboration. And the partnership between PSA and Toyota, which resulted in the Aygo/C1/108, and I believe there's shared vans and other engines as well. That I think might cause issues in the future.
 
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There's also the other partnerships to take into account as well: I believe that Fiat work with Renault-Nissan and Mitsubishi in commercial vehicles, as well as the existing, and old, Ducato/Boxer/Relay collaboration. And the partnership between PSA and Toyota, which resulted in the Aygo/C1/108, and I believe there's shared vans and other engines as well. That I think might cause issues in the future.

Vauxhall had a partnership with Renault for the Vivaro and Movano vans. They'd only recently introduced a new Vivaro, when PSA took over and replaced it with a badge-engineered Boxer. The Renault based vans were quite good. The new Peugeot one, not so much, as well as being smaller, and quite cramped inthe cab. Taller people will not fit in the Peugeot cabin.
 

rmjbn1

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I'm not sure I like the sound of this merger either. Modern PSA products are unremittingly dismal in my opinion.

Although I hope that the powers that be can see that each brand has established their own particular niche, and there's no need to mess with that.

FIAT for small, light, simple and fun cars
Citroen for MPVs
DS for blinged-up C3s and C4s
Lancia for promoting the Greek alphabet
Peugeot for invalid carriages (I've no idea what they make nowadays)
JEEP for, er, jeeps
Alfa Romeo for 'premium'/performance larger hatchbacks and saloons
Maserati for outrageously expensive yet unprofitable and unreliable wheeled Italian suits (some traditions need to be maintained, after all).

The one silver lining I can see is that the planets have aligned so that Citroen own Maserati again! Maybe we can expect some more weird and wonderful things in the future:)
 
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The one silver lining I can see is that the planets have aligned so that Citroen own Maserati again! Maybe we can expect some more weird and wonderful things in the future:)

A modern SM, with Maserati engine and Citroen hydropneumatic suspension, would be a brilliant yet probably unprofitable flagship. Something for many to dream about yet never own, just like in the past. Could do wonders for PSA sales generally.

Jeremy Clarkson once said people buy Peugeots because they live near the dealer. That was true here. When our local garage was a Peugeot dealer, one in three cars in the town were Peugeots. When they lost the franchise and became just another garage, people have made different choices.
 

DaveMcT

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I can see the Tesla traction motors being too exotic for almost anything Fiat produce. But Big Auto will struggle with batteries and control software. I guess the issues are
Can Tesla make enough to supply others?
Is Tesla interested in allowing the likes of Fiat to manufacture them under licence?
 
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DaveMcT

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I think it's more about manufacturing tradition.

The Citroen CX and DS were expensive cars but the hydropneumatic brakes, suspension and steering did not shove the 1980s BX or the older GS and GSA to silly prices. They had issues with corrosion but so did everything of the day.

The BX 1.9 GT is one (of many) cars I regret selling.
 
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AndyRKett

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But Big Auto will struggle with batteries and control software. I guess the issues are
Can Tesla make enough to supply others?
Is Tesla interested in allowing the likes of Fiat to manufacture them under licence?

“Big Auto” ?. Because Tesla isn’t the most valuable car company in the world right now?

Batteries are almost always bought in from other companies like Panasonic who incidentally make the batteries for teslas, or rather tesla make Panasonic batteries under licence.
Tesla only announced its plans to start making its own batteries at the end of last year.
 
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