have you got good oil circulation? a lot of cars have hydraulic tappets, and will not open the valves enough if empty.
Technical Engine will not start (Green Flag can't fix)
- Thread starter markos
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Technical Engine will not start (Green Flag can't fix)
solid tappets on all 8v engines mate
a car with empty hydraulic tappets will run fine just rattle allot
the hydraulic tappet only has a little movement so there fore when empty the valves will still open plenty to run
no it wont
I don't think changing tb will make any difference there is nothing in here that will stop the engine running besides the injector it's self so if you want to change something change this
but before you do anything your car may be flooded with fuel from trying to start it with a weak fuel pump so try and start it for other 10 seconds with your foot off the throttle and if it then does not even try you still have a problem
after this lets start from the beginning
what lights show on dash on first turn of the key to mar and does the code light and injection warning light then go out in the correct sequence injection light is the last to go off it goes off at the same time as the fuel pump does
if this is normal then you need to turn on your ignition and test the wires to the injector one is earthed by ecu to fire it the other is 5v+ if you put an L.E.D bulb on these it will flash when you turn the car over
turn the car over and see what you have coming out of the injector
should be short bursts of fuel in a fine mist if its a continuous dribble then your injector is clogged open
if nothing at all put your finger on the injector you should feel it clicking if it isn't you have a faulty injector or an electrical problem with the injector
what part of country do you live any way may be close to some one that can help
I don't think changing tb will make any difference there is nothing in here that will stop the engine running besides the injector it's self so if you want to change something change this
but before you do anything your car may be flooded with fuel from trying to start it with a weak fuel pump so try and start it for other 10 seconds with your foot off the throttle and if it then does not even try you still have a problem
after this lets start from the beginning
what lights show on dash on first turn of the key to mar and does the code light and injection warning light then go out in the correct sequence injection light is the last to go off it goes off at the same time as the fuel pump does
if this is normal then you need to turn on your ignition and test the wires to the injector one is earthed by ecu to fire it the other is 5v+ if you put an L.E.D bulb on these it will flash when you turn the car over
turn the car over and see what you have coming out of the injector
should be short bursts of fuel in a fine mist if its a continuous dribble then your injector is clogged open
if nothing at all put your finger on the injector you should feel it clicking if it isn't you have a faulty injector or an electrical problem with the injector
what part of country do you live any way may be close to some one that can help
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If he took it to dealer it would be fixed by now (original post 2 weeks ago) 
T14086, I thought this forum was made for troubleshooting advice. If I was going to take it to the dealer I would have done that at the first instance.
We are talking about a Mk1 Punto which at best is worth 600 pounds. Paying for a tow to the dealer and back plus diagnostics (which might have been inconclusive) would have cost around 150, 200 easy.
Buying a pump for 28 pounds from e-bay when there was a high probability it was causing the problem still makes sense.
I will have a closer look at the injector again. Thanks to litlepip17 for his advice up to now.
Mark
We are talking about a Mk1 Punto which at best is worth 600 pounds. Paying for a tow to the dealer and back plus diagnostics (which might have been inconclusive) would have cost around 150, 200 easy.
Buying a pump for 28 pounds from e-bay when there was a high probability it was causing the problem still makes sense.
I will have a closer look at the injector again. Thanks to litlepip17 for his advice up to now.
Mark
Yes it is but theres only so much you can do without actually seeing the car.
Can you not get it towed to the garage by a friend?
Also give dealer a set amount of time to spend on the car at a pre-arranged rate,normally older cars (with all due respect) is £40+vat. In this time error codes can be extracted & a guided diagnostic carried out.This at least would generalise the fault to a particular area...if more time is needed then take car away (with diagnostic printout) & take it from there.Having error codes would be more helpful to most here is diagnosing your fault that basically starting from scratch.
Can you not get it towed to the garage by a friend?
Also give dealer a set amount of time to spend on the car at a pre-arranged rate,normally older cars (with all due respect) is £40+vat. In this time error codes can be extracted & a guided diagnostic carried out.This at least would generalise the fault to a particular area...if more time is needed then take car away (with diagnostic printout) & take it from there.Having error codes would be more helpful to most here is diagnosing your fault that basically starting from scratch.
just had my air box off because of the housing you can actually see base of the injector but you can see the fuel droplets hitting the throttle butterfly and running down forwards and through the gap left at fully closed position
basikly the hole butterfly should be wet with fuel across it's face when the car has been turned over for a wile if not then looks like you have a fuelling issue by the way you can also here the injector clicking if you listen carefully but might be difficult over the noise of your starter you can kind of feel it with a carfull touch best way is with a stethoscopes or long screwdriver held to the injector and your ear at the other lol
basikly the hole butterfly should be wet with fuel across it's face when the car has been turned over for a wile if not then looks like you have a fuelling issue by the way you can also here the injector clicking if you listen carefully but might be difficult over the noise of your starter you can kind of feel it with a carfull touch best way is with a stethoscopes or long screwdriver held to the injector and your ear at the other lol
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Its no use trying to get to the bottom of problem without some sort of planned approach however basic. Try these tests:-
remove air intake from TB and tip a table spoon of petrol into intake, place cover back on loosely and start car, did it begin to start?
Yes= its fuel supply, also timing is ok.
Undo fuel line to injector line and hold thumb over it, get a friend to turn on ignition, but not try to start.
Did you get appreciable pressure under the thumb?.
Yes = pump ok, it must be injection pulse missing.
No = pump faulty.
To test injector:-
Re - assemble pipe.
Switch on ignition
Attach a wire between gnd and the earthy side of injector, injector should open up and fuel gush through.(this earthing process can not harm the attached ECU).
To test the MAP:-
Check the voltage on the MAP connector whilst attached to loom and ignition on.
Should get:-
+5v (supply)
+0v-1.2v
0v (gnd)
If centre voltage is above +2v then the MAP is faulty.
If centre voltage is approaching zero then the ECU is at fault.
My finger is tired now!!
remove air intake from TB and tip a table spoon of petrol into intake, place cover back on loosely and start car, did it begin to start?
Yes= its fuel supply, also timing is ok.
Undo fuel line to injector line and hold thumb over it, get a friend to turn on ignition, but not try to start.
Did you get appreciable pressure under the thumb?.
Yes = pump ok, it must be injection pulse missing.
No = pump faulty.
To test injector:-
Re - assemble pipe.
Switch on ignition
Attach a wire between gnd and the earthy side of injector, injector should open up and fuel gush through.(this earthing process can not harm the attached ECU).
To test the MAP:-
Check the voltage on the MAP connector whilst attached to loom and ignition on.
Should get:-
+5v (supply)
+0v-1.2v
0v (gnd)
If centre voltage is above +2v then the MAP is faulty.
If centre voltage is approaching zero then the ECU is at fault.
My finger is tired now!!
I put the key in the ignition and turned it to the MAR position. I then disconnected the cable to the injector and measured the voltage across it. It is 5V. Is this right?
According to what you are saying the ECU only grounds when it wants to "fire" the injector so I shouldn't be getting a voltage reading..
According to what you are saying the ECU only grounds when it wants to "fire" the injector so I shouldn't be getting a voltage reading..
did you test the 2 wires in the plug or one of them and an earth point on the car
if you can get 5v across the 2 wires without the engine running that sounds wrong sounds like the grounding wire is at fault earthed out on something or the engine ecu is faulty how ether you may be measuring a potential 5v with no current flow capabilities so no injector opening as they are controlled by
transistors I haven't tried it on mine I may if I get a chance
can you put an led bulb on them and see if it flashes or illuminates at all you will have to try it both ways as led are diodes only illuminating one way
if it does flash then you have no electrical faults and the injector is your next point of call if you don't have an led you could get one from your local motor world or whatever you know them ****y illegal side light ones all the chavs rave about
if you can get 5v across the 2 wires without the engine running that sounds wrong sounds like the grounding wire is at fault earthed out on something or the engine ecu is faulty how ether you may be measuring a potential 5v with no current flow capabilities so no injector opening as they are controlled by
transistors I haven't tried it on mine I may if I get a chance
can you put an led bulb on them and see if it flashes or illuminates at all you will have to try it both ways as led are diodes only illuminating one way
if it does flash then you have no electrical faults and the injector is your next point of call if you don't have an led you could get one from your local motor world or whatever you know them ****y illegal side light ones all the chavs rave about
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Hi litlepip,
I tried the LED solution. If I insert the LED pins into the injector cable clip when the key is at MAR it lights up. As soon as I turn the key to crank the engine the LED goes out.
Surely that is not right. But what I don't understand is if there is 5 volts across the cable at all times then why doesn't petrol just gush through as soon as I connect the cable to the injector..
I tried the LED solution. If I insert the LED pins into the injector cable clip when the key is at MAR it lights up. As soon as I turn the key to crank the engine the LED goes out.
Surely that is not right. But what I don't understand is if there is 5 volts across the cable at all times then why doesn't petrol just gush through as soon as I connect the cable to the injector..
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Turn on ignition disconnect injector and measure each of he 2 wires from ecu. 1 will be 13v, the other will be lower. This lower one is the ecu connection.
Connect up the injector use a wire to connect from the connection identified above to earth. Injector should open and gush. You can make a connection by pushing a needle or similar down the side of the connector.
The false voltage you where measuring across the cable is not significant.
Connect up the injector use a wire to connect from the connection identified above to earth. Injector should open and gush. You can make a connection by pushing a needle or similar down the side of the connector.
The false voltage you where measuring across the cable is not significant.
13 volts? Are you sure?
As I said I am only measuring 5 volts (4.75 to be exact) across the two wires from the ECU, and the earth side of the connector seems to be permanently grounded.. If it wasn't I would be able to measure a voltage across it and the LED wouldn't light up.
As I said I am only measuring 5 volts (4.75 to be exact) across the two wires from the ECU, and the earth side of the connector seems to be permanently grounded.. If it wasn't I would be able to measure a voltage across it and the LED wouldn't light up.
Have you tested/replaced the Crank or Fly Wheel sensor, it'll be one of those that is causing your problems. Has it got a single coil, could also be that. Get a test light on your spark plug, if it doesn't illuminate when cranked I'd put money on it being one of the engine sensors or coil. Yes I've been here before myself.
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Original post said that sparks were there, so that should rule out CPS.
Regarding the voltages, they should be taken with the black probe on battery
and the readings taken on the red probe as said earlier.
from what you have said it is starting to look like terminal ecu failure
what should happen is when you turn on the ignition the injector is fed with a common 5v line (not13) it's 5v because if it were 13v the injector would not fire when the battery voltage was below say 9v and that would be no good at all if you had had your radio on for a wile after turning your car off you learn something new eveyday
when you turn the engine over it should then start earthing the second wire in short pulses but until you turn over the car this should remain disconnected from earth
the reason your injector is not gushing out when ingnition is on is because there is potential power but no current flow due to high resistance probably
this is a common misconception buy mechanics that if there is power the circuit is ok but not the case
you could measure your battery voltage through a heavy resistor and it would still be 13v but obviously with the high resistance there would be no current flow
both power and earth for the injector go through the engine ecu so next step from here is to test the wires from the injector to the ecu multi plug for continuity
if there is any more that 20ohms resistance between them they are faulty
if the resistance is little or non at all you can safely say the engine ecu is faulty
the pins you need to test in the multi plug are pins 19 goes to injector earth and 36 goes to injector live
the earth is white with blue trace the live is brown with white trace
your ecu multi plug as I'm sure your aware is at the left of your engine bay held to the ecu with a simple clip
ps if your using wire colours not my numbers please remember the live feed from the ecu goes through the injection relay first before heading to the injector and there fore is red and white trace from ecu to relay then brown and white from relay to injector
also bare in mind the white traces may look a little yellow with age
what should happen is when you turn on the ignition the injector is fed with a common 5v line (not13) it's 5v because if it were 13v the injector would not fire when the battery voltage was below say 9v and that would be no good at all if you had had your radio on for a wile after turning your car off you learn something new eveyday
when you turn the engine over it should then start earthing the second wire in short pulses but until you turn over the car this should remain disconnected from earth
the reason your injector is not gushing out when ingnition is on is because there is potential power but no current flow due to high resistance probably
this is a common misconception buy mechanics that if there is power the circuit is ok but not the case
you could measure your battery voltage through a heavy resistor and it would still be 13v but obviously with the high resistance there would be no current flow
both power and earth for the injector go through the engine ecu so next step from here is to test the wires from the injector to the ecu multi plug for continuity
if there is any more that 20ohms resistance between them they are faulty
if the resistance is little or non at all you can safely say the engine ecu is faulty
the pins you need to test in the multi plug are pins 19 goes to injector earth and 36 goes to injector live
the earth is white with blue trace the live is brown with white trace
your ecu multi plug as I'm sure your aware is at the left of your engine bay held to the ecu with a simple clip
ps if your using wire colours not my numbers please remember the live feed from the ecu goes through the injection relay first before heading to the injector and there fore is red and white trace from ecu to relay then brown and white from relay to injector
also bare in mind the white traces may look a little yellow with age
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Ok, I have performed some tests with my multimeter and I can say the following..
The injector is fed by two wires
One is Blue/White and connects to the ECU (pin 18)
The other is Brown/White and connects to the relay
When you turn the key to the MAR position the relay is energised for a second or two until the pump builds up pressure. During this time the Brown/White wires has 12.5 volts across it (with respect to the - on the battery). As soon as the pump builds up pressure the relay is de-energised.
So now the key is still in the MAR position but the Brown/White wire has 0 volts acrosss it.
If I measure the Blue/White wire it has 4.75 volts across it.
As soon as you turn the key to start the engine the following happens..
The Brown/White wire has 12.5 volts across it and the Blue/White wire has 3.5 volts across it.
It seems that this is not enough for the injector and not much petrol comes out.
According to my understanding the ECU should ground the Blue/White wire but this doesn't seem to happen.
So I guess there is something wrong with the ECU...
From what I understand ECUs are code protected so I can't just replace it
I have been reading about this in the forum but I have one question...
In theory the ECU and the key share this code. When you put the key into the ignition and turn it to MAR this code is checked.
However on two occassions I have made copies of the original keys and they were never programmed with any code but they still work (for the past two years).
Can this be explained in any way? Does this mean that perhaps I could get a different ECU and it would still work?
Thanks
The injector is fed by two wires
One is Blue/White and connects to the ECU (pin 18)
The other is Brown/White and connects to the relay
When you turn the key to the MAR position the relay is energised for a second or two until the pump builds up pressure. During this time the Brown/White wires has 12.5 volts across it (with respect to the - on the battery). As soon as the pump builds up pressure the relay is de-energised.
So now the key is still in the MAR position but the Brown/White wire has 0 volts acrosss it.
If I measure the Blue/White wire it has 4.75 volts across it.
As soon as you turn the key to start the engine the following happens..
The Brown/White wire has 12.5 volts across it and the Blue/White wire has 3.5 volts across it.
It seems that this is not enough for the injector and not much petrol comes out.
According to my understanding the ECU should ground the Blue/White wire but this doesn't seem to happen.
So I guess there is something wrong with the ECU...
From what I understand ECUs are code protected so I can't just replace it
I have been reading about this in the forum but I have one question...
In theory the ECU and the key share this code. When you put the key into the ignition and turn it to MAR this code is checked.
However on two occassions I have made copies of the original keys and they were never programmed with any code but they still work (for the past two years).
Can this be explained in any way? Does this mean that perhaps I could get a different ECU and it would still work?
Thanks
Lowtechguy
Member
timing belt not slipped? Not worth fitting a new belt?
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Not true the injector is fed with the common batt supply through relays.
Not true see above.
Have you tried tipping some fuel in the throttle body and trying to start it?
