Technical Engine light flashing and limp mode - 2017 500S

[Drozich]

Hi there,

We picked up a 2017 500S 1.2 almost two weeks ago and have had a couple of limp mode issues, the first one on the drive home.

The car had a service with cambelt/water pump before we collected it and was running perfectly when we left the dealer.

On the drive home from collecting the car it went into limp mode with the EML flashing. Pulled over and switched the car off and on again and it was fine and has been until tonight where it did the same thing again. Car off and on again and seems fine.

I have a scanner (£25 off Amazon) and there are no codes stored.

I did the phonic reset but the car was running fine at the time so not sure if it was successful or not. I replaced the spark plugs at weekend but the car ran perfectly before and after this and has done until tonight.

The only slight thing is that when pulling away from stationary it seems slightly hesitant just as you set off. No spluttering or misfire, just a slight hesitation. Hence changing the plugs. We also have a 2010 1.2 Pop that doesn't do this.

We bought the car for our daughter so I need to get to the bottom of it really.

Car has done 60K miles.

Thanks in advance.

Stevie

 

[Derbyfella]

I’d be taking it back to the garage immediately especially if it did this on the way home.
id also not expect your £25 not to be able to read all codes…

 

[Drozich]

I’d be taking it back to the garage immediately especially if it did this on the way home.
id also not expect your £25 not to be able to read all codes…

It’s a pretty long round trip to take it back so I wanted to see if anyone knew what it may be first. If it’s something simple and cheap to fix then I’ll do it myself, if it’s an expensive or complex repair then I’d ask them to sort it.

 

[John202020]

EML come on at high speed? But was OK at low speed until it came on?
Suggest cam timing out

 

[Drozich]

EML come on at high speed? But was OK at low speed until it came on?
Suggest cam timing out

Hi John, the first time was at motorway speeds but this latest time was just around town driving.

Thanks.

 

[puntodeltathema]

The slight hesitation on pickup may be a red herring - see the debates on here about the Euro 6 throttle map which takes a bit of getting used to. When stationary in first, you should notice the revs rise slightly as you bring the clutch up without touching the accelerator - the car effectively does the clutch takeup for you, at least to a walking pace. I found one needed to mentally adjust one's focus on throttle control from managing the clutch bite to managing the transition from just moving off to normal progress....if you see what I mean....

As I've a daughter starting driving shortly, I've sold my own 2017 "S" and have gone back to a "normal" Euro 5 car so she can properly learn the delights of old-fashioned clutch control.....

 

[TrevC]

When did the clutch induced rev rise come in? The 2014 1.2 we just bought has that feature, but I assumed it was Euro 5.
Sorry to hear about your issue, Stevie. I watch a dealer's YouTube channel, Chops Garage, and he's just had a 500 returned that gives the same symptoms. He thinks it's the ECU and has sent it for testing, I'll give the outcome if I see it.
Shame the dealer is so far away as they have a 6 month responsibility, and you could (in theory) get a refund in the first 30 days. We only looked at nearby cars for that reason.

 

[Derbyfella]

This is one of the reasons I said about taking it back. I know it’s a pain but you’ve paid for goods that aren’t to the standard you should expect. I would recommend speaking to the dealer today and explaining the situation to them.
I understand you think it might be nothing and it’s not worth your time taking it to them but what if it’s something a little bit more major and you’ve left it to long and the dealership say sorry no it’s out of warranty period.
at least if they are made aware…I would also send an email for a hard copy back up that you’ve reported an isssue as they could quite easily say no record on our system.

 

[puntodeltathema]

When did the clutch induced rev rise come in?

Euro 6, which I think was cars manufactured from January 2014.

 

[Drozich]

Fault code read shows random cylinder misfire. I believe that this could be:

Coil Pack
Lead(s)
Plugs

Plugs are brand new and the fault has happened before and after the plugs were fitted.

Is there a common failure or is it a case of just replacing all of it?

@Derbyfella - many thanks for your advice mate, the garage are aware and are offering to sort any issues.

Thanks again!

 

[chris3234]

Definitely sounds like they made have made a mess of changing the cambelt on this engine sounds just like. Afew other threads I've seen like this

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

EML come on at high speed? But was OK at low speed until it came on?
Suggest cam timing out

I was thinking the same - easy to get it one tooth out, depending on what procedure is followed to do the job - as is often reported on here

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Fault code read shows random cylinder misfire. I believe that this could be:

Coil Pack
Lead(s)
Plugs

Plugs are brand new and the fault has happened before and after the plugs were fitted.

Is there a common failure or is it a case of just replacing all of it?

@Derbyfella - many thanks for your advice mate, the garage are aware and are offering to sort any issues.

Thanks again!

Random misfire codes? Is the EML lit? Does it actually exhibit symptoms of misfireing when being driven? ie. jerks and stutters etc. if no obvious signs of misfire but codes still displayed that's classic symptom of cam belt maybe being one tooth out and/or at least needing a "proper" phonic wheel relearn for which you'll need something like Multiecuscan or dealer tool to do the initial wipe before doing the three times rev up procedure. If the belt change was done in the recommended way - that is with the cam sprocket retaining bolt being slackened during fitting and retightened at the conclusion then a Phonic wheel relearn is almost certainly going to be needed.

There are posts on here from people who have spent considerable amounts of money renewing ignition components - plugs, leads, coils and more - trying to sort this "misfire" problem after doing a belt change when the problem is actually in the belt fitting and/or reteaching it the relative positions of the crank/cam sensor by doing the phonic wheel relearn. In this particular and specific circumstance, ie. after fitting a new belt, the misfire code is a red herring. It's just the computer trying to interpret the disparity it's seeing between the new (post new belt) crank and cam sensor readings compared to what it thinks it should be seeing which are the relative sensor positions when the old belt was fitted. A generic scan tool, even a good quality one, will probably not allow the Phonic wheel relearn to be done properly. Are they Fiat "people"? If this garage is not used to doing Fiat "stuff" they may not know, or have the necessary equipment, to resolve this.

I believe the belt guards and cam cover need to come back off and the crank and cam locking tools needs to be used to double checked and rectified if incorrect. Once it's established that the timing is definitely correct if they don't have a satisfactory scan tool (which probably means either MES or dealer tool) you could try taking the car for a drive down a faster road - somewhere where it can be driven at higher speeds and let it cruise at maybe around 50 mph for a wee while. If it's a Phonic wheel learning problem it often won't show up just cruising round town at low revs, it needs a wee while running at higher - but not "silly" revs. If the EML doesn't come on after your "country drive" and no codes are posted then most likely a Phonic wheel relearn will not be needed.

 

[Drozich]

Random misfire codes? Is the EML lit? Does it actually exhibit symptoms of misfireing when being driven? ie. jerks and stutters etc. if no obvious signs of misfire but codes still displayed that's classic symptom of cam belt maybe being one tooth out and/or at least needing a "proper" phonic wheel relearn for which you'll need something like Multiecuscan or dealer tool to do the initial wipe before doing the three times rev up procedure. If the belt change was done in the recommended way - that is with the cam sprocket retaining bolt being slackened during fitting and retightened at the conclusion then a Phonic wheel relearn is almost certainly going to be needed.

There are posts on here from people who have spent considerable amounts of money renewing ignition components - plugs, leads, coils and more - trying to sort this "misfire" problem after doing a belt change when the problem is actually in the belt fitting and/or reteaching it the relative positions of the crank/cam sensor by doing the phonic wheel relearn. In this particular and specific circumstance, ie. after fitting a new belt, the misfire code is a red herring. It's just the computer trying to interpret the disparity it's seeing between the new (post new belt) crank and cam sensor readings compared to what it thinks it should be seeing which are the relative sensor positions when the old belt was fitted. A generic scan tool, even a good quality one, will probably not allow the Phonic wheel relearn to be done properly. Are they Fiat "people"? If this garage is not used to doing Fiat "stuff" they may not know, or have the necessary equipment, to resolve this.

I believe the belt guards and cam cover need to come back off and the crank and cam locking tools needs to be used to double checked and rectified if incorrect. Once it's established that the timing is definitely correct if they don't have a satisfactory scan tool (which probably means either MES or dealer tool) you could try taking the car for a drive down a faster road - somewhere where it can be driven at higher speeds and let it cruise at maybe around 50 mph for a wee while. If it's a Phonic wheel learning problem it often won't show up just cruising round town at low revs, it needs a wee while running at higher - but not "silly" revs. If the EML doesn't come on after your "country drive" and no codes are posted then most likely a Phonic wheel relearn will not be needed.

Hi there,
There are no signs of misfire at all, the car drives smoothly. The EML flashes and it goes into limp mode. It’s only been above 50mph on one occasion since we got the car as it’s my daughter’s car and she’s learning in it, so it’s all town driving. The second time the light came on it was at around 20mph but my wife was driving at the time and she said it was idling very roughly.

The local garage I normally use said cam belt straight away when I told them the symptoms. They’re the ones that scanned the car today and got the codes off for me.

The car sales place we bought it from sell all marques so definitely not a Fiat specialist. The issue I have now is that I don’t want to drive it 45 minutes back to them in case it drops into limp mode on the motorway again or does any damage to the engine. I’ll have to get them to collect it or have someone local have a look at it.

Thanks for such a detailed response, this will help me get to the bottom of it and I’ll post up what’s happens.

Thanks,
Stevie

 

[Derbyfella]

i think them collecting it is the way forward. And bringing a courtesy car with them. I woulds also clarify they bring a towing truck - not just send a man with a mate to drive your car back.
Hope it gets sorted properly

 

[Drozich]

Car was collected last week and they have reported a faulty O2 sensor. Coil pack and plugs have been replaced as well (even though I replaced the plugs already). Waiting to get the car back, they want to run it for a couple of days to make sure the issue has been rectified.

Does this sound right to you guys? Could the O2 sensor cause the flashing EML and limp mode?

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Car was collected last week and they have reported a faulty O2 sensor. Coil pack and plugs have been replaced as well (even though I replaced the plugs already). Waiting to get the car back, they want to run it for a couple of days to make sure the issue has been rectified.

Does this sound right to you guys? Could the O2 sensor cause the flashing EML and limp mode?

Faulty O2 sensor causing limp mode? Hmm. I doubt it. I think it's most likely that it will illuminate the Check engine light on the dash but the ECU will recognize this, post the appropriate code to it's memory and revert to running on the basic built in fueling map? However I'm an old guy so what do I know about modern cars? My bets are still on it being to do with cam timing.

Edit. If you've got a half decent scan tool then diagnosing an older type Oxygen sensor - as this is - is a pretty simple thing to do so it doesn't mean that it didn't need the O2 sensor, I'm just of the opinion that the sensor on it's own will most likely light the CEL but probably won't initiate Limp? If the sensor really was needed then I'd be changing that first and then seeing how she responded. When you start changing more than one thing at a time you can never really be sure what you did that cured the problem and maybe some of what you've done actually didn't need doing?

 

[Drozich]

I wonder if it was the cam timing but to save blushes they’ve blamed it on something else?

Our old Honda had an O2 sensor go faulty and it was just like you said, the light came on but it ran just fine with no limp modes etc..

 

[John202020]

Yep our old Honda and Micra both had O2 sensor faults, other than the light on you'd never know running wise(and idle/fuel consumption)