Technical Ducato slipped timing belt

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Technical Ducato slipped timing belt

Paul M G

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Hi all
On the 12th December I attempted to start my 2019 Ducato 2.3 multijet. It was cold -7, it started made one hell of a noise, immediately switched it off. After some research discovered the issue with the scuttle and water ingress and freezing on the timing belt/pulleys and causing it to slip. Contacted Fiat who gave me Ref number said they will look at it even though warranty was up a year ago and had only done 12k.
It's st the dealers now, been re timed , new belt but still not very well, engine started but making noises. My question is what damage may have accured and has any body had any dealing with Fiat and this issue and did Fist repair free of charge as it is a know fault.
Thank you for and advice given

Paul
 
Hi Paul

Its a known thing on here, frozen water on pulleys jumped the belt

Generally FIAT seem to offer a 50% contribution for Warranty claims they support

However on a diesel you probably have valve to piston contact..
So the noise could point to expensive damage

Good luck, do let us know what is found

Charlie
 
Hi Paul

Its a known thing on here, frozen water on pulleys jumped the belt

Generally FIAT seem to offer a 50% contribution for Warranty claims they support

However on a diesel you probably have valve to piston contact..
So the noise could point to expensive damage

Good luck, do let us know what is found

Charlie
Hi, thanks for your reply Charlie, I am hoping fingers crossed that the damage is just to the top end of the engine as it does start now it's timed back up and it may just be broken rockers, hoping it's a fail safe engine 🫰
 
A year ago nov 21 (2020 2.3 180hp, 178,000 miles, 56k after Stoneacre (Vanworld) chesterfield fitted a new belt kit (note van still under 2yr warranty)
That belt stripped itself of @40% of its teeth,
Remarkably, a new belt kit sorted it, no damage at all,
However it’s worth noting that Stoneacre fitted a Non genuine belt, unbeknown to me, which wasn’t as well made or same size (width, thickness, no Kevlar reinforcement) and they had to pay the local fiat dealer for the repair

Shame it didn’t damage the engine as that would have cost them a fair bit

I’m told the engines (iveco) are designed to not self destruct, maybe the ice caused other issues

Hopefully it’s an easy fix

Moving on
Over Xmas I noticed a lot of rainwater running under the scuttle grill, like the early split scuttles did, dripping right down near the aux belts, cam belt areas

So I’m awaiting new strip of “P41” P Seal from Seals Direct to come, will then modify using the seal and Sikaflex to stop this,

Maybe an idea to do yours

Pics from the aftermarket belt and old scuttle mod I’m going to do
 
Old scuttle mod
 

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“INA” brand substandard belt
 

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INA isnt a bad brand.. but obviously 'wrong' for that application.
OE on VW I believe, but definitely not up to std for the 2.3 lump

Mechanic compared genuine vs this, narrower just,
Thinner, profile of teeth wrong, no Kevlar thread impregnated into the rubber

Maybe ok on a 1.0 polo but couldn’t cope with the 180 horses of the Ducato 🤣
 
A year ago nov 21 (2020 2.3 180hp, 178,000 miles, 56k after Stoneacre (Vanworld) chesterfield fitted a new belt kit (note van still under 2yr warranty)
That belt stripped itself of @40% of its teeth,
Remarkably, a new belt kit sorted it, no damage at all,
However it’s worth noting that Stoneacre fitted a Non genuine belt, unbeknown to me, which wasn’t as well made or same size (width, thickness, no Kevlar reinforcement) and they had to pay the local fiat dealer for the repair

Shame it didn’t damage the engine as that would have cost them a fair bit

I’m told the engines (iveco) are designed to not self destruct, maybe the ice caused other issues

Hopefully it’s an easy fix

Moving on
Over Xmas I noticed a lot of rainwater running under the scuttle grill, like the early split scuttles did, dripping right down near the aux belts, cam belt areas

So I’m awaiting new strip of “P41” P Seal from Seals Direct to come, will then modify using the seal and Sikaflex to stop this,

Maybe an idea to do yours

Pics from the aftermarket belt and old scuttle mod I’m going to do
Hi, thanks for the advice, after speaking to Fiat they say if the belt slipped at low revs it will have broken the rockers as designed to do, fingers crossed.
As for the scuttle I have bought some Butyl rubber joining tape which will stick the existing seal to the screen and alow the windscreen to be removed if ever needed to be replaced.

Paul 😊
 
Hi, thanks for the advice, after speaking to Fiat they say if the belt slipped at low revs it will have broken the rockers as designed to do, fingers crossed.
As for the scuttle I have bought some Butyl rubber joining tape which will stick the existing seal to the screen and alow the windscreen to be removed if ever needed to be replaced.

Paul 😊
Hi Paul,

Just seen your post now and I just had a similar problem with mine. Awaiting further inspection at a fiat repair shop in Germany but they have advised that there was water ingress which formed ice and damaged the engine on start up and quoted me a minimum of €7k repair which can go up to double depending on the extent of damage.

The only difference in my case is that the engine never started up completely. Tried about 4 or 5 times 10 minutes apart but never started up, thought it was due to the cold temperatures. I have no idea how this has caused damaged.

Was yours sorted ? Did you have any serious damage ? + did you take it further with fiat due to the know water ingress issue which caused this ? I'm truly gutted
 
Hi Paul,

Just seen your post now and I just had a similar problem with mine. Awaiting further inspection at a fiat repair shop in Germany but they have advised that there was water ingress which formed ice and damaged the engine on start up and quoted me a minimum of €7k repair which can go up to double depending on the extent of damage.

The only difference in my case is that the engine never started up completely. Tried about 4 or 5 times 10 minutes apart but never started up, thought it was due to the cold temperatures. I have no idea how this has caused damaged.

Was yours sorted ? Did you have any serious damage ? + did you take it further with fiat due to the know water ingress issue which caused this ? I'm truly gutted
Hi.
It has been sorted now at a cost of £5k.the inlet valves hit the pistons but did not damage them instead broke the rockers. Replaced the eight inlet valves and all the rockers, timing belt and water pump.
Fiat will not contribute to the cost saying I have not been loyal because I have not had it serviced at a Fiat dealer or for example bought some floor mats. My nearest Fiat dealer is an hour away when I asked them to service it they said we do not service commercial vehicles, other dealer that does is a five hour round trip away.
Its absolutely disgusting that Fiat treat people like this it's there know fault, to rub salt in the wound they string you along while the vehicle is in a Fiat dealer being diagnosed and repaired with Fiat parts only to be told they want help and making money out of the parts.
 
Hi Paul,

Just seen your post now and I just had a similar problem with mine. Awaiting further inspection at a fiat repair shop in Germany but they have advised that there was water ingress which formed ice and damaged the engine on start up and quoted me a minimum of €7k repair which can go up to double depending on the extent of damage.

The only difference in my case is that the engine never started up completely. Tried about 4 or 5 times 10 minutes apart but never started up, thought it was due to the cold temperatures. I have no idea how this has caused damaged.

Was yours sorted ? Did you have any serious damage ? + did you take it further with fiat due to the know water ingress issue which caused this ? I'm truly gutted
Please keep in touch and let me know how you get on with fiat. What have Fiat actually said to you ?. We were given a case manager in Milan called Amanda, just strung us along basically.
 
Sorry to hear of your problems

WHY IT HAPPENS:

Water dribbles over a toothed gear of the timing belts system.. in COLD conditions this water can freeze...


The Ice built across the teeth will act like a build up of metal..

The engine turns
The camshaft is driven by the belt

At a point the Ice filled 'smooth portion' of the cam pully is no longer driven efficiently, so the timing of this camshaft 'Slips' and is then behind the rest of the engine. SO a collision occurs.


Yes.. it has been known as an issue for a long time

How Peugeot and Citroen deal with their similar failures..I dont know
 
Sorry to hear of your problems

WHY IT HAPPENS:

Water dribbles over a toothed gear of the timing belts system.. in COLD conditions this water can freeze...


The Ice built across the teeth will act like a build up of metal..

The engine turns
The camshaft is driven by the belt

At a point the Ice filled 'smooth portion' of the cam pully is no longer driven efficiently, so the timing of this camshaft 'Slips' and is then behind the rest of the engine. SO a collision occurs.


Yes.. it has been known as an issue for a long time

How Peugeot and Citroen deal with their similar failures..I dont know
Thanks for the explanation ! What i can't understand is how the engine was damaged without even starting up ? Is it possible that a collision occured during start up if the engine never actually started up ?

I guess i will have to wait until next week until Fiat work on it but i was under the understanding that the damage is made when you're driving along and it goes... and during the following seconds until the engine goes off... the damage is done.
 
Please keep in touch and let me know how you get on with fiat. What have Fiat actually said to you ?. We were given a case manager in Milan called Amanda, just strung us along basically.
Sorry to hear about your bad experience ! Tbh at the moment if they manage to fix it for 5k ill be happy as when they mentioned the possible cost might go into double digits i was shocked.

So right now im dealing with a fiat and iveco repair in germany. Who did you contact ? Fiat in Italy ? I will def do the same
 
Thanks for the explanation ! What i can't understand is how the engine was damaged without even starting up ? Is it possible that a collision occured during start up if the engine never actually started up ?

I guess i will have to wait until next week until Fiat work on it but i was under the understanding that the damage is made when you're driving along and it goes... and during the following seconds until the engine goes off... the damage is done.

The starter motor turns the Bottom of the engine

The TimingBelt links the bottom to the top

So the belt passes around the Crankshaft
And Both Camshafts

One of the camshafts had Ice on.. so one is driven as designed..
and one slips on the ice.. meaning its valves are still dangling down into the engine as the pistons come up

BENT VALVES

This is basiically what happens with any Cambelt failure..Ford Cortina era and on

FIAT designed 'sacrificial' parts to minimise the cost of parts needing replacement..

But Labour is also quite involved

Camper chassis from Fiat Citroen and Peugeot have been built together for @30 years..
 
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Thanks for the explanation ! What i can't understand is how the engine was damaged without even starting up ? Is it possible that a collision occured during start up if the engine never actually started up ?

I guess i will have to wait until next week until Fiat work on it but i was under the understanding that the damage is made when you're driving along and it goes... and during the following seconds until the engine goes off... the damage is done.
Hi Christopher. I have just sposted about this issue on our 2020 Ardria motorhome. First ever trip to the Alps and engine possibly destroyed. Fiats first response is out of warranty so tough luck, even though it is clearly a design fault and they know about it.
How can you destroy an almost new engine through no fault of your own and its your problem not theirs? Did you get any money or help from Fiat?
 
The starter motor turns the Bottom of the engine

The TimingBelt links the bottom to the top

So the belt passes around the Crankshaft
And Both Camshafts

One of the camshafts had Ice on.. so one is driven as designed..
and one slips on the ice.. meaning its valves are still dangling down into the engine as the pistons come up

BENT VALVES

This is basiically what happens with any Cambelt failure..Ford Cortina era and on

FIAT designed 'sacrificial' parts to minimise the cost of parts needing replacement..

But Labour is also quite involved

Camper chassis from Fiat Citroen and Peugeot have been built together for @30 years..
Hi I have just posted about our same issue. Adria motor home and our first ever trip to the Alps. Parked up for 3 nights in c minus 10 degrees , tried to start the engine but seems like we have now destroyed it in the process. Van is now being repatriated to the UK.

It had done only 12000 miles and had been well serviced and dry stored in the winter months.

How do you know so much about this , and do Fiat know as much as you? Surely this is a design fault?

Do you know many others who have had this happen to them?

We are just shocked right now, all our money and plans gone, no trust to ever use that van again and Fiat just say 'not our problem mate'
 
Hi all
On the 12th December I attempted to start my 2019 Ducato 2.3 multijet. It was cold -7, it started made one hell of a noise, immediately switched it off. After some research discovered the issue with the scuttle and water ingress and freezing on the timing belt/pulleys and causing it to slip. Contacted Fiat who gave me Ref number said they will look at it even though warranty was up a year ago and had only done 12k.
It's st the dealers now, been re timed , new belt but still not very well, engine started but making noises. My question is what damage may have accured and has any body had any dealing with Fiat and this issue and did Fist repair free of charge as it is a know fault.
Thank you for and advice given

Paul
Paul

Did you get nowhere with Fiat?

We have just had this happen to us in the Alps. 3 nights at about minus 10 and went to start the engine and looks like we destroyed it. Van is now being repatriated to the UK.
It is 2020 and only done 12000 miles , well maintained and dry stored in the winter. This is the first time it even went out in the cold, hardly been out in the rain !!

£65k van with a destroyed engine .

How hard did you fight Fiat ?

Do you know of others , because including Christopher on this thread I now know 4 of us that have had this happen.

I can't believe this is a simple parts failure , it seems like it has to be a design fault in which case the expiry of the parts warranty is irrelevant
 
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