Technical Ducato P0401 P0402 P0236 P0238 and limp mode its 2017 Euro 6, EGR changed, What do I check next

[CheeseMonster]

Ive been tying to find this, E5050 but cant find the component identifier (eg k046 rpm/ crankshaft sensor) or P32.
ps just come back from specavers with new glasses.

I have no idea what E5050 is, or k046? Can anyone explain please?

 

[theoneandonly]

I have no idea what E5050 is, or k046? Can anyone explain please?

I was replying to @deejays comment on using e-learn E6 version E5050
a clue

K046 is the fiat designation for rpm sensor

 

[CheeseMonster]

I was replying to @deejays comment on using e-learn E6 version E5050
a clue
View attachment 459627
K046 is the fiat designation for rpm sensor

Thanks for clarification.
Puppy Linux I think.

 

[theoneandonly]

Thanks for clarification.
Puppy Linux I think.

the clue is in the left hand bottom corner.

 

[deejays]

Hi @deejays yes I'm still wanting to investigate a temp sensor override for the LP EGR. Late last year I was planning to insitu clean the cooler but got stopped by a bad back and being unable to reach the temp sensor plug / socket location. (It's well hidden by the comfortmatic operating hydraulics). Because of early signs of the cooler blocking I decided to have my cooler changed whilst the van was having its annual MOT. Thus I'm in no panic to do anything.
I guess now I have to find the harness connector for those pins. I wonder if I need to remove the left headlight to access the ECU box. Any ideas?
.
In case you are wondering about how I began my recent comments about ' helping each other without charge'; we had another post on here from a suspected scammer who appeared again (slightly different id I think), proffering a solution for which he wanted money. Our admin team has kindly removed his message again.
.
.
How did you locate those plug pin numbers? Have you a wiring diagram?
.

https://lab-aftersales.fiat.com/elearn_testreda/main.aspx?nodeID=250016321&languageID=2&markID=5&modelID=250000003&valID=250000009&prodID=99&modelName=Professional%20-%20290/295%20-%20Ducato%20FL%202014&langDesc=English&sectionName=Impianto%20Elettrico&validityName=2.3%20JTD%20E6&isExaminer=

 

[MarcoWuerttemberger]

Hello lovely People in this Forum,
my name ist Marco, i am from Germany and my Car is a Ducato 290 130 Multijet 131 HP Twin Egr. Software Version ist 28.
Last year in June i had the P0401-61 Error.
After changing the HPEGR the Fault was still there. So i found this forum and told the mechanic to clean the DPF and the LPEGR Cooler. No more Errors anymore for 10K Kilometers.
Now P0401-61 again. Bought MES and tomorrow i will do the Testdrive with the Templates from @theoneandonly .
Hope you guys can help me to understand the data from MES i will provide. But i think the cooler is getting clogged again. Since June i use Miller's everytime i refill my fueltank. Exaust is sooty.

Best wishes to all
Marco

 

[CheeseMonster]

I feel I keep looking at this problem from a different perspective to others but has anyone else considered fuel and oil additives an there contribution to diesel particulate matter size?

This morning I searched on diesel and oil additives to increase particulte size. It would appear to me from what I've read that they can change particulate size.

I'm no fuel scientist, do we have one?

Would larger particles be better trapped by the DPF?

 

[deejays]

I feel I keep looking at this problem from a different perspective to others but has anyone else considered fuel and oil additives an there contribution to diesel particulate matter size?

This morning I searched on diesel and oil additives to increase particulte size. It would appear to me from what I've read that they can change particulate size.

I'm no fuel scientist, do we have one?

Would larger particles be better trapped by the DPF?

Hi @CheeseMonster , I like the way you are thinking, but to solve the issue of a cracked DPF - man that would need to be some increase in particulate size, I reckon. All joking aside, I think the filter does a very good job collecting particulate matter as is, but as we all have come to understand from the information in this post, the issue of the clogged LPEGR cooler only occurs after the DPF has failed.

 

[deejays]

Hello lovely People in this Forum,
my name ist Marco, i am from Germany and my Car is a Ducato 290 130 Multijet 131 HP Twin Egr. Software Version ist 28.
Last year in June i had the P0401-61 Error.
After changing the HPEGR the Fault was still there. So i found this forum and told the mechanic to clean the DPF and the LPEGR Cooler. No more Errors anymore for 10K Kilometers.
Now P0401-61 again. Bought MES and tomorrow i will do the Testdrive with the Templates from @theoneandonly .
Hope you guys can help me to understand the data from MES i will provide. But i think the cooler is getting clogged again. Since June i use Miller's everytime i refill my fueltank. Exaust is sooty.

Best wishes to all
Marco

Hi @MarcoWuerttemberger It would seem likely your DPF has failed (sooty exhaust) and because of that the soot will eventually block a clean LPEGR cooler. From reading this full post it would seem there are really two options - one is to just keep cleaning the LPEGR cooler each time it blocks, or the more expensive option (at least up front) is to replace the DPF with a new one at the same time as replacing the cooler with a new or cleaned unit. Depending on labour costs to R/R and clean the cooler every 10,000km or so, it may be cheaper in the long run to replace the failed DPF. It may be worth considering getting the SW updated to V32 as well.

 

[MarcoWuerttemberger]

Hi @MarcoWuerttemberger It would seem likely your DPF has failed (sooty exhaust) and because of that the soot will eventually block a clean LPEGR cooler. From reading this full post it would seem there are really two options - one is to just keep cleaning the LPEGR cooler each time it blocks, or the more expensive option (at least up front) is to replace the DPF with a new one at the same time as replacing the cooler with a new or cleaned unit. Depending on labour costs to R/R and clean the cooler every 10,000km or so, it may be cheaper in the long run to replace the failed DPF.

thx for Response...yeah, in Long Terms it might be cheaper to change DPF,LPEGR Cooler and Injectors. Because every 10 K Kilometers spent 1200 € for cleaning is nuts. But before spent this amount of money i will provide MES Data Just to be safe
Greetings
Marco

 

[MarcoWuerttemberger]

One question...maybe i'm to dumb.
Searched the MES User Guide for saving selected Parameters as a template.
I do as in the User Guide described and also in the Guide from theoneandonly.
Ticked all the necessary Parameters, brought them Up to top, click the "Templates" Button and it Shows me a empty List between 0 and 9.
After clicking Ctrl ( in Germany it's the Strg Button) and a number, for example 2, nothing Happens. Still a empty List.

Anyone have an advice for me?
thanks a lot, really appreciate your knowledge Here.
Marco

 

[Fredastaire]

Ive written before about adding a resistor to the LP EGR temp probe to kid the software that the EGR temp is so high that it needs to close down the actual opening value on the servo motor. @theoneandonly has researched the fiat ? website and located the Temp probe as device K247, with pin numbers 32 & 48 on the harness connector. Further the fiat diagram gives the wire colours of white/black tracer and brown/white tracer. These confirm the earlier page photo by @Sillystu84.
Ive already bought a brand new temp sensor , genuine Fiat and done some resistance checks at different temperatures and given the data to theoneadonly; the higher the temperature, the resistance drops down, he suggests that it needs a resistor in parallel putting across the two wires of the value 15K Ohms as a start point to make the software partially close down the LP EGR servo motor.
.
I add a photo of the inside of the LP EGR with the cover off. You can see the black cam screwed to the white gear. The white gear is on a shaft that opens and closes the exhaust flap inside the housing. when the white gear revolves clockwise the black cam lifts a roller (on arm) which then closes the butterfly on the infeed opening from the air filter. its the total closing of the butterfly that cuts off the air to the turbo and thus strangles the engine at which point we get the P0401 fault code. In the photo I have rotated the gear drive to the point that the cam has lifted the roller and thus almost closed the butterfly.
.
Using mutiecuscan we can read the LP EGR opening values, we see generally 4.8 ish as the fully open figure.
.
My theory is to break in to the engine harness to locate the two above mentioned wires (white/black & brown/black) and to add a twin wire cable, soldering / insulating the joints and taking the wire into the cab, go for a drive and whilst watching on MES see if adding the resistor changes the LP opening value.
.
Should my theory work then we just leave the soot blocked cooler as is without dismantling.
.
Ive been otherwise engaged which has stopped me progressing further at the moment.
.
Does anybody want to have a try and see if my theory holds good? perhaps @MarcoWuerttemberger ?

 

[theoneandonly]

One question...maybe i'm to dumb.
Searched the MES User Guide for saving selected Parameters as a template.
I do as in the User Guide described and also in the Guide from theoneandonly.
Ticked all the necessary Parameters, brought them Up to top, click the "Templates" Button and it Shows me a empty List between 0 and 9.
After clicking Ctrl ( in Germany it's the Strg Button) and a number, for example 2, nothing Happens. Still a empty List.

Anyone have an advice for me?
thanks a lot, really appreciate your knowledge Here.
Marco

Multiecuscan first
get to parameters page F4
press or click 0 this shows contents of template 0
replace 0 with 1-9 to see other templates.
pick a template number to use eg 4 . if you see some red l lines ie pids already selected press N it all turns to blue. CTL + 4 empty template now saved in 4.
click on required Pids now RED press S all red selected to top. CTL + 4 template 4 saved. to check press 0 (or known empty one) the page will show all blue pids, then 4 your saved PIDs should reappear.

There is little doubt that your LPEGR Cooler has blocked again but send the data and i will confirm.
as @deejays says
there are really two options - one is to just keep cleaning the LPEGR cooler each time it blocks, or the more expensive option (at least up front) is to replace the DPF with a new one at the same time as replacing the cooler with a new or cleaned unit.
to second option I would add
a new set of injectors? leakoff test as a minimum. inspection for tip wear next on list and possible a new set of injectors
There are a small number of second time problems occuring which to me points to 2 options clean as much soot in the system as possible that includes HPEGR and pipework and intake manifold /throttle body. This is a lot more labour. For compleateness i would suggest a fuel test for diesel bug. I think diesel bug is reason for 2nd failure (possibly first) If diesel bug is found then add all relevent work ie a drain off bug cleaner / polishing. I have confirm data on diesel bug on only case.
Yes 2nd option has become a lot more expensive

 

[MarcoWuerttemberger]

@Fredastaire
normaly i'm a big fan of tinkering around. But in this case this goes way beyond my knowledge..i can perform a regular Oil Change, fitting new Brakes and so on.
But that kind of Operation..sry.Not enough knowledge.

@theoneandonly
thanks for Response.
Will try your perfect explanation for settings up a template.
Diesel Bug is not the reason in my case i think...use my Duc Mobile Home as my Daily Driver.

Had a call with my Mechanic and he is lookin for the Parts (DPF, Injectors , LPEGR Cooler) that he will need and then he can tell me a housenumber.

Best Wishes
Marco

 

[Hank25]

Ive written before about adding a resistor to the LP EGR temp probe to kid the software that the EGR temp is so high that it needs to close down the actual opening value on the servo motor. @theoneandonly has researched the fiat ? website and located the Temp probe as device K247, with pin numbers 32 & 48 on the harness connector. Further the fiat diagram gives the wire colours of white/black tracer and brown/white tracer. These confirm the earlier page photo by @Sillystu84.
Ive already bought a brand new temp sensor , genuine Fiat and done some resistance checks at different temperatures and given the data to theoneadonly; the higher the temperature, the resistance drops down, he suggests that it needs a resistor in parallel putting across the two wires of the value 15K Ohms as a start point to make the software partially close down the LP EGR servo motor.
.
I add a photo of the inside of the LP EGR with the cover off. You can see the black cam screwed to the white gear. The white gear is on a shaft that opens and closes the exhaust flap inside the housing. when the white gear revolves clockwise the black cam lifts a roller (on arm) which then closes the butterfly on the infeed opening from the air filter. its the total closing of the butterfly that cuts off the air to the turbo and thus strangles the engine at which point we get the P0401 fault code. In the photo I have rotated the gear drive to the point that the cam has lifted the roller and thus almost closed the butterfly.
.
Using mutiecuscan we can read the LP EGR opening values, we see generally 4.8 ish as the fully open figure.
.
My theory is to break in to the engine harness to locate the two above mentioned wires (white/black & brown/black) and to add a twin wire cable, soldering / insulating the joints and taking the wire into the cab, go for a drive and whilst watching on MES see if adding the resistor changes the LP opening value.
.
Should my theory work then we just leave the soot blocked cooler as is without dismantling.
.
Ive been otherwise engaged which has stopped me progressing further at the moment.
.
Does anybody want to have a try and see if my theory holds good? perhaps @MarcoWuerttemberger ?

Fredastaire when you removed battery box recently do you think you can remove the lpegr this way

 

[theoneandonly]

Fredastaire when you removed battery box recently do you think you can remove the lpegr this way

@Fredastaire From what he's said in past, due to comfortmatic gubbins in way probably not. maybe possible in a manual.

 

[Fredastaire]

@Hank25 the LP EGR can only be removed after the cooler is removed. To do that is the subframe off, DPF off, first.
I also have wondered about changing the LP EGR cam, but that needs the cover removing. Here again I've thought about surgery to cut a portion out of the bulkhead panel where the passengers feet are
Easiest might still be the addition of a resistor as soldering in an twin flex wire might not be so difficult and not destructive.
.
@MarcoWuerttemberger , soldering in a pair of wires shouldn't be too difficult.

 

[MarcoWuerttemberger]

probably not....but the only thing i ever solded in my life was some speaker plugs on my speaker cable.
Fixing your Bike ( If you ever visit Germany and riding an MTB...im your man) or painting scale Models, no Problem. But i'm absolutely clueless about electronics ...unfortunately i'm a social worker with two left hands sry mate

 

[BoultsG]

@Fredastaire
normaly i'm a big fan of tinkering around. But in this case this goes way beyond my knowledge..i can perform a regular Oil Change, fitting new Brakes and so on.
But that kind of Operation..sry.Not enough knowledge.

@theoneandonly
thanks for Response.
Will try your perfect explanation for settings up a template.
Diesel Bug is not the reason in my case i think...use my Duc Mobile Home as my Daily Driver.

Had a call with my Mechanic and he is lookin for the Parts (DPF, Injectors , LPEGR Cooler) that he will need and then he can tell me a housenumber.

Best Wishes
Marco

@MarcoWuerttemberger
When your mechanic has sourced DPF, injectors etc, can you share the DPF part number?

Thanks

 

[Redeagle]

Van is 2017 Euro 6 bought new , now with 26K on clock.

Problems started this summer with dash engine light and code P0401 appeared on a country lane at low speed going into a corner so it would be low airflow going in to the engine as it wasn’t ‘working’. Bought FCR and cleared fault, happened again days later, including P0402, cleared it.

So its an intermittent fault., it might be days before it happens again. Dealer had a look, diagnosed software needed latest issue which he installed.

Still getting P0401

Then going up a hill with foot down a bit I get a double whammy of P0401 and P0236 plus P0238 and the dreaded limp mode.

After much reading on here I decided to but MES software for laptop and checked things, both EGR’s cycle fine, DPF is cycling fine and not blocked so scratching head and thinking, more reading on here and I decided to change the top high temp EGR thinking it was sticking. Brand new Fiat part from Coastal Motorhomes fitted and codes cleared, still intermittent getting P0238 P0236 and Limp Mode.

More reading on here led me to check the fine bore plastic vacuum / pressure pipes, all fine, more reading so took the left hand intercooler pipe assembly off suspecting cracked bracket, perfect, looked inside cooler, not blocked, visually checked the RH intercooler pipe – fine, checked intercooler – fine.

Ive ordered new Fiat MAP and turbo vacuum solenoid, yet to arrive.

I would appreciate comments and advice as to what I do next, Ive been told @whineO or @Euroserve might be able to advise, is it possible?

Thinking map sensor
and is this the other one with small pipes coming off it? If so may solve issue as I had similar problems and then limp mode
I replaced the egr, map, maf, and boost pressure Converter