Technical Ducato P0401 P0402 P0236 P0238 and limp mode its 2017 Euro 6, EGR changed, What do I check next

[theoneandonly]

I thought I was going to be out of luck tonight, with no fault codes to deliver.
Then at second 806.14, I got a triple whammy - 236, 238, 401.
Nearly the full set we're lookin at in this thread!
Its always easy to spot the when the MIL activates, as actual turbo pressure drops to atmospheric pressure - about 990mbar - ie. the ECU shuts the turbo off.
I haven't conducted any further analysis of the csv yet - over to the group to see what they think.

First some graphs for other to comment

Injectors wish mine were that good
dpf sensor upto 100 indicative of a dpf in good working order
LP EGR appears to be working but no LPEGR temperature taken, this is the important one and need repeating with

 

[Baz in Kent]

Something that for some unknown reason isn’t popular with the contributors here but worked for me (Fiat supplied all replacement parts worth £6k free of charge) is to complain to Fiat‘s CEO and keep complaining until you get a satisfactory response. Twitter may be a useful ally.
IMHO it just isn‘t good enough for Fiat to saddle consumers - who have paid a lot of money - with huge repair bills on almost new engines, due to their poor design and unsympathetic after-sales service.
That said, hats off to them in my case as I now have a 2-year parts & labour warranty - which hopefully I won‘t need if what they tell me is true and the new parts plus software update are the solution.
The service bulletin @Fredastaire refers to is 10.023.19 which I’m happy to make available.
Good luck…

 

[Steve928]

I'd like to see bulletin 10.023.19 please Baz.
I've yet to check which software version I have but as the chassis cab left Sevel mid-2018 and hasn't been serviced by Fiat (although it's been back for other recalls) it won't be v32.

 

[Baz in Kent]

I'd like to see bulletin 10.023.19 please Baz.
I've yet to check which software version I have but as the chassis cab left Sevel mid-2018 and hasn't been serviced by Fiat (although it's been back for other recalls) it won't be v32.

See PM.

 

[Bigruss]

Day two of testing, tracking all the parameters requested this time - now including LPEGR temperature. I've never tracked this before.
No codes to begin with. MIL codes 236 and 238 occurred at 406.88 seconds. Hazard lights on the motorway at 54km/h limp mode with nowhere to pull over - great fun in the Ducato, but this is my best place for reproducing the fault consistently.
The fault always seems to occur after a long LPEGR open call (~10 seconds) with boost pressure 400mBar lower than desired for this period. My DPF temperature seems low at 51.5C after 406 seconds of engine running.
Over to the group for comment.

 

[Fredastaire]

Day two of testing, tracking all the parameters requested this time - now including LPEGR temperature. I've never tracked this before.
No codes to begin with. MIL codes 236 and 238 occurred at 406.88 seconds. Hazard lights on the motorway at 54km/h limp mode with nowhere to pull over - great fun in the Ducato, but this is my best place for reproducing the fault consistently.
The fault always seems to occur after a long LPEGR open call (~10 seconds) with boost pressure 400mBar lower than desired for this period. My DPF temperature seems low at 51.5C after 406 seconds of engine running.
Over to the group for comment.

My laptop will not show the attachment or open it.
What is the Cooler temperature with LP EGR open for a minute or more? does it reach 100 plus

 

[Baz in Kent]

First some graphs for other to comment

Thanks for the graphs.
One comment/question, Fiat’s service bulletin calls for a physical check of the DPF, how reliable an indicator is the pressure sensor data?


CYCLE B - DPF check
• Put the car on the lift.
• Undo the nuts (1 - Fig. 2) fixing the exhaust of the pipe (2) to the DPF (3).
Fig. 2 (this is a photo in the Service News)
Move the exhaust pipe away from the DPF filter, wipe a clean white cloth inside the DPF filter outlet and check cleanliness.
• If the cloth remains sufficiently clean (A - Fig. 3), the DPF filter is OK. Continue with the reprogramming operation (Cycle D).
• If the cloth becomes heavily soiled with black spots and soot (black particulate matter), replace the DPF filter and continue with reprogramming (Cycle D).
To replace the DPF filter, refer to Technical Service Manual Op. 1080B81.

 

[Bigruss]

@Bigruss if you read back very early on I’ve said that there are at least two fault scenarios. I also had the double whammy. The turbo solenoid is known to fail on mileage ie worn out, mine was at 24k miles I think. It’s reported on other posts on here. One member on here ran his 2017 Ducato trade vehicle to 280 thousand miles changing the solenoid every 24k miles!. The other known believed fault is the MAP sensor where the factory fitted MAP is not the correct Bosch number. Both items are low cost, say £90 the pair and relative easy to change if you have nimble fingers and a mirror to spot some of the fixings. This left me with just the 401 appearing intermittently.

Hi Fredastaire. Thanks heaps for starting this thread and for your ongoing contributions.
Can you explain a reliable way to check what model of MAP sensor I should really have on a 2017 Ducato?
I did a like for like MAP sensor replacement - assuming what was in the truck when I bought it, was correct.
This resulted in me replacing a dirty Bosch 0281006028 with a clean model of the same number.

 

[Bigruss]

My laptop will not show the attachment or open it.
What is the Cooler temperature with LP EGR open for a minute or more? does it reach 100 plus

The LPEGR is opening and closing consistently (until the MIL code hits), however the temperature hits a maximum of 51.5C.
The truck idled for about 5 minutes prior to this recording whilst I got MES set up and scanning. Is this time length sufficient, or do I need to run for longer? Seems a little low in temperature to me anyways for a feed straight from the exhaust.

 

[BobSlo]

It is to low. After cleaning and DPF replacement temperature is going up to 120

 

[Bigruss]

See PM.

Hi Baz. Would you be able to PM me the service bulletin too please?

 

[Baz in Kent]

Hi Baz. Would you be able to PM me the service bulletin too please?

May as well just post it here.

 

[Baz in Kent]

May as well just post it here.

Also attached data from my (hopefully) good engine with replaced parts.

 

[theoneandonly]

@Bigruss
Your lpegr temp is way too low as Baz says you should be getting upto 100 prefereable 110 see previous examples

However graph 2 shows engine not yet warm. previous experiance shows LPegr cooler temp not upto max untill engine warm.
Sorry but you need to repeat and get a good warm engine.

 

[theoneandonly]

@Baz in Kent

 

[theoneandonly]

@Bigruss
some more

The dpf sensor showing sensible values. the test needs to be rerun to get sensible lpegr data once engine up to temperature.

 

[theoneandonly]

@Baz in Kent

Even New injectors / recon can appear to occassionaly out of spec. Would make sense to use additives/cleaners to maintain condition.

Catalyst DPF temperature, LPEGRtemp

LPEGR temperature follows RPM

 

[Bigruss]

Test data for day 3 attached. The route was chosen to get the engine warm, without triggering a MIL, to examine LPEGR temperatures. This involves a long downhill run followed by flat, by which time the engine has warmed up, and I'm very unlikely to get a MIL, which I didn't.

I had previously stated I only get a MIL in the first 10 minutes of driving. This focus on temperatures has made me think that I should change this statement to "I'm only likely only get a MIL before the engine has reached full operating temperature".

This trucks LPEGR temperature, once warmed up, ranges from 62 to 85 degrees C. Still seems low based on the forum information. Based on this, and the Fiat Service notice for this issue, I'm ready to make the call to book it in for v32 software, a new DPF, LPEGR clean, and any sensor changes down there which have been soot damaged.

 

[theoneandonly]

@Bigruss
What version software have got?
Sorry if already stated.

 

[Bigruss]

@Bigruss
What version software have got?
Sorry if already stated.

v23