Technical Ducato 3.0 2009 Stranded Non Starter (Actually a Boxer)

[Philblack]

Firstly apologies as this is a Boxer but I believe uses the same Iveco 3.0 engine.
Currently stranded in a Mercadona car park in rural Spain.
We have had this motorhome conversion for approx 8 years and have done just under 60k miles in our ownership. Always starts first crank, new battery last year. About 8 weeks ago travelling down to the Tunnel we stopped on motorway service for a coffee break. Came out to continue journey and van wouldn't start. All dash lights come on then go off as normal including the padlock symbol, engine cranks quickly but no attempt to fire. Tried numerous times, setting resetting door locks etc always cranking quickly but no start. Eventually called breakdown assistance and waited, after half an hour I just tried again and it started on the button as normal. Called breakdown to advise and they cancelled the call out. We had the tunnel booked early the following morning so decided to continue but to stop and test multiple times on the way. Started first time every time so we made the decision to continue with the trip. 8 weeks, nearly 3000 miles and probably 100+ starts later it's done it again, yesterday on the campsite wouldn't start in the morning exactly the same symptoms, left it a few hours and it started on the button. This evening we needed food for the Bank Holiday weekend so headed to the nearest proper supermarket approx 45 mins drive from the campsite. Came out to drive back and no start again. The van drives perfect and there are no hints of any issues, I do have a basic Bluetooth EML reader but it says no current faults, there is a stored fault relating to glow plugs but it has had this the whole time of our ownership, (the glow symbol flashes for a period after starting). It's also quite warm here so pretty certain that is not the issue.
My thoughts are cam position sensor but would this throw up a fault code or engine management light?
Any ideas or thoughts would be much appreciated. The Easter holiday period is a big thing here in Spain so finding an open garage over the next few days is unlikely, fortunately we do have breakdown cover but not called them yet, it would be our last resort as we have heard many stories of vans being stuck in foreign garages for weeks or more.

 

[varesecrazy]

Hi,
very general info here as I've not had your motor..

CRANK AngleSensor is a posibility,

No input from the CAS the ECU doesn't "see" the motor is turning therefore doesn't inject fuel

Obviously you have a sound Starter Circuit and it's spinning the motor quite happily

CAS won't leave an error code, as I doesn't appreciate the motor is spinning..

From what you've said.. This appears to be heat dependant (sensitive).. As in the sensor is struggling to pick up any rotation signal



IF you are now stuck with a stranded non. Starter..


I would suggest trying to get it spinning slightly faster (starter motor generally only manages @50% of your normal tickover/ idle speed)


So either a Towstart.. Or a whiff of easystart

As either will get engine RPM raised, where it might get enough input to then sense and run


Ideally.. Just tell us more

We can try and advise you

 

[varesecrazy]

problem hot starting | FIAT Ducato

hi all. my 08 ducato x250 -3L started ok when cold but run it for miles then stop it would turn over but not start leave it to cool down & it started straight away apparently reading on the m/home forum its another fiat thing we have to contend with ( techno 100 put me right good man ) up...

www.fiatforum.com

Have a read..

 

[Philblack]

Thanks for the response, I would agree with the hot start diagnosis except yesterday morning it had been a clear night and we are in the mountains so about 6° to 8°c when we first tried starting after leaving it most of the day it was about 15° when it started as normal. I replaced the earth strap a few years back, but I will check it tomorrow. It's almost midnight here now so staying in the car park fortunately this is the overflow bit which doesn't have gates on. Will see if it starts in the morning and update the forum. Cheers

 

[varesecrazy]

No problem Phil

The basic message was..

Do Not rule out the Crank Sensor, as it won't leave a code

The other thing that Could be a factor is FuelPressure

It needs to hit a good figure BEFORE the ECU permits injection

Again low cranking speed leads to low fuel pump speed = low rail pressure

One thing that you may not have tried..

Run the tank pump Twice on the ignition switch before Cranking
AND
Depress the clutch pedal as you crank the STARTER (So you only spin the Engine not a cold and heavy geartrain)
Might buy you another 100 rpm/100 bar rail pressure


Do let us know how things go

 

[Communicator]

Firstly apologies as this is a Boxer but I believe uses the same Iveco 3.0 engine.
Currently stranded in a Mercadona car park in rural Spain.
We have had this motorhome conversion for approx 8 years and have done just under 60k miles in our ownership. Always starts first crank, new battery last year. About 8 weeks ago travelling down to the Tunnel we stopped on motorway service for a coffee break. Came out to continue journey and van wouldn't start. All dash lights come on then go off as normal including the padlock symbol, engine cranks quickly but no attempt to fire. Tried numerous times, setting resetting door locks etc always cranking quickly but no start. Eventually called breakdown assistance and waited, after half an hour I just tried again and it started on the button as normal. Called breakdown to advise and they cancelled the call out. We had the tunnel booked early the following morning so decided to continue but to stop and test multiple times on the way. Started first time every time so we made the decision to continue with the trip. 8 weeks, nearly 3000 miles and probably 100+ starts later it's done it again, yesterday on the campsite wouldn't start in the morning exactly the same symptoms, left it a few hours and it started on the button. This evening we needed food for the Bank Holiday weekend so headed to the nearest proper supermarket approx 45 mins drive from the campsite. Came out to drive back and no start again. The van drives perfect and there are no hints of any issues, I do have a basic Bluetooth EML reader but it says no current faults, there is a stored fault relating to glow plugs but it has had this the whole time of our ownership, (the glow symbol flashes for a period after starting). It's also quite warm here so pretty certain that is not the issue.
My thoughts are cam position sensor but would this throw up a fault code or engine management light?
Any ideas or thoughts would be much appreciated. The Easter holiday period is a big thing here in Spain so finding an open garage over the next few days is unlikely, fortunately we do have breakdown cover but not called them yet, it would be our last resort as we have heard many stories of vans being stuck in foreign garages for weeks or more.

Hi Phil,
In view of the incidents highlighted above, I cannot agree with the suggestion that your problem is temperature related.

As you have stated, that the vehicle runs OK when started, this tends to exonerate the crank sensor, unless the problem is engine speed related.

The engine uses a Bosch EDC 15C39 ECU, which is probably a developement of the EDC 15C7 used in my 2.8jtd, but that type number does not appear on the label.

I cannot state with certainty for the 3.0 ltr engine, but on the 2.8jtd, the camshaft sensor is only used when starting, to determine the stroke of No. 1 cylinder, and subsequently takes no further part in the control process.

If I had a similar problem, I also would be suspecting the camshaft sensor. I cannot say whether or not a faulty camshaft sensor would cause the ECU to produce a fault code. The alarm logic would have to see two rotations of the crankshaft, with no camshaft sensor output.

By coincidence prior to reading your post late yesterday evening, I had been reading a lengthy technical article about a reluctant to start 2.8jtd. The resolution was by correcting a poorly aligned camshaft sensor.

 

[Philblack]

Thanks for your responses.
So no luck this morning, tried multiple times still cranking quickly. So thought I would try checking connection plugs, wires etc and removing the sensors and cleaning. Did the cam sensor first as it's really easy access, everything looked good and no change also starting crank a little slower but still at a decent speed. Then tried the crank sensor, what a total pain to access, back of the engine tucked in near the alternator, no clear view or access. Head torch and mobile in video mode to see what doing, Removed plug and retaining bolt but couldn't get the sensor out, it would rotate eventually quite easily but couldn't get good enough access to really pull and didn't want risk breaking it. Anyway refitted plug and tried cranking, went first time, tried multiple times and started on the button every time. Refitted bolt, in the process of which I dropped a 10mm 3/8 socket, wedged between the block and alternator bracket but unable to see, feel or access. Fortunately I had a 10mm hex drive socket, as no room for 1/2" drive stuff. Back at the campsite now, multiple stops and all fine so far....
So unless a total coincidence, it does point to a crank sensor related issue either wiring plug or dirt? on the sensor which has been dislodged with my actions. I think we will try to pick up a sensor in Spain keep our fingers crossed and hope I don't have to fit it until home in a couple of weeks time. Thanks again for the thoughts and suggestions

 

[Philblack]

Just thought I would post a follow up to this...

About a week after my last post the van again refused to start one morning at the campsite, through a local garage we ordered a new crank sensor and a few days later when it arrived I fitted it, and the van started first crank. Problem finally solved we thought. Unfortunately another week later at the start of our drive back home to the UK the van again refused to start in the morning, after having driven perfectly in the intervening time.

As we had a ferry booked in another 3 days which also coincided with the expiry of our EU 90 day limit, we called breakdown. Systems exactly as before, everything appears to work, dash lights etc cranks well but no start. Eventually recovered to a depot/garage and a mechanic set to work but no luck in starting, he had it hooked to diagnostics but the language barrier made it harder to understand what he thought the issue was. It was suggested the van needed to be taken to a bigger garage for more testing etc but that couldn't happen until the following Monday. As we had to be out of the EU by Sunday evening we made the decision to fly home from Barcelona and after discussion with our UK breakdown company, have the van repatriated back. We would have been happy to have repairs done in Spain but had no way of returning to collect it for at least another 90 days (EU rules).

Well exactly a month after leaving the van in Spain, it has just arrived back home, exactly as we left it.

After charging the battery, it was totally flat, not sure why as it was still turning quite strongly when we left it. But to our surprise it started first turn of the key!! But for the first time in all this saga it was also showing an EML, my basic code reader shows just one code P0094. Looking on the ELearn code diagnosis this relates to fuel pressure, and there are a series of tests to try starting on the low pressure side, fuses relays pump etc then the regulator itself including wiring before moving on to injectors and the high pressure pump. When the rain stops I'm going to start checking some of this out but my gut feeling is its on the low pressure side or pressure regulation.

Additional info - In testing the Spanish mechanic did try "easy-start" and the van did run (very roughly) for about 30 sec whilst they were spraying it in. Also I have cleared the code and it has not returned, although the van has only been idling on the driveway. I have stopped and started it a few times but don't want to risk driving it.

A couple of questions,

Would a failed/failing low pressure fuel pump prevent the van starting? or would it run briefly then die.
At no time in all this has the van shown any signs of a fault when running/being driven, what failed/failing component could prevent starting but have no impact on the van when running.

Any additional thoughts or input would be much appreciated.

Cheers Phil

 

[jackwhoo]

A faulty in tank pump could cause a no start . Blocked fuel filter too.

I recommend getting a code reader that can read desired and actual fuel rail pressures. Multi ecu scan software and a lead to connect laptop to vehicle is highly recommended and cheap

 

[jackwhoo]

Previously mentioned by other member is ecu needs to "see" a rail pressure threshold reached before trying to inject.
If any factor stops the pressure threshold being reached while attempting to start , it just won't start.
When engine is running the rpm is much higher than starter motor speed, so rail pressure likely to stay above threshold.

You need to be able to read rail pressure.

 

[varesecrazy]

Previously mentioned by other member is ecu needs to "see" a rail pressure threshold reached before trying to inject.
If any factor stops the pressure threshold being reached while attempting to start , it just won't start.

Agreed

When engine is running the rpm is much higher than starter motor speed, so rail pressure likely to stay above threshold.

The motor spinning while fuelled by Easy Start..
BUT not continuing to run...
should rule out a failing HIGH pressure pump

You need to be able to read rail pressure.

Very true

 

[jackwhoo]

A faulty in tank pump could cause a no start . Blocked fuel filter too.

I recommend getting a code reader that can read desired and actual fuel rail pressures. Multi ecu scan software and a lead to connect laptop to vehicle is highly recommended and cheap

You will need to check to see if multiecuscan works with your boxer- I forgot you stated not a ducato

 

[Communicator]

The motor spinning while fuelled by Easy Start..
BUT not continuing to run...
should rule out a failing HIGH pressure pump

Why? Engine is only running on the Easy Start, with no diesel injected.

 

[varesecrazy]

Why? Engine is only running on the Easy Start, with no diesel injected.

A failing pump won't give sufficient pressure at Cranking speeds,
but upping the Rpm can get pressure over the threshold to Continue running,

But if the base Diesel supply is compromised, then obviously that doesn't apply

 

[Philblack]

Thanks for both your inputs.

The van continues to start first turn and no codes showing, but I don't dare risk driving as I don't think my breakdown policy will cover me again for the same issue.
I have also found that my cheap bluetooth dongle with Car Scanner app can display and record live data from a limited number of sensor, including fuel rail pressure, rpm etc. On the app it shows a scrolling graph but the export is just a cvs file, so need to work out how to view that in graph format on my pc. I have attached a few screen grabs from the phone, rail pressure at idle is about 40000kPa and seems to rise quickly with increased revs, no load, to just under 80000kPa at approx 2000rpm haven't revved any higher as don't want to annoy the neighbours. With ignition on and engine not running rail pressure was reported as 1280 - 1500kPa after having been run previously.
I have noted that some intermediate data points are missing in the downloaded cvs file ie rpm sometimes not showing for 10 or 20 sec whilst engine is running whilst other data is still being recorded, although I'm not certain if this is an issue with my cheap EML reader or just me trying different viewing parameters.
I don't think MultiECUscan supports the Peugeot Boxer unfortunately, not showing in the vehicle list, so I am looking for other options that support live recording of relevant data.
I can now hear the in-tank fuel pump running at ignition on, but obviously the van is starting at the moment. I did listen for it one of the times it wouldn't start but couldn't hear anything, I assumed it was just very quiet! and their was a bit of ambient traffic noise so it was hard to tell at the time, but maybe it wasn't?

I'm going to check the fuel filter this afternoon to hopefully rule that out and check for any obvious wiring loom issues/damage

Cheers Phil

 

[jackwhoo]

Compare desired fuel pressure ( the fuel pressure ecu is trying to achieve) with actual fuel pressure. The two should track closely.

By all means investigate the low pressure pump......disable it and see if you get a no start condition.....enable see if it starts.

Fault codes are very much NOT the be all and end all of fault finding. They are an aid to fault finding. No fault code does not mean there are no faults as you are finding out.

 

[jackwhoo]

It would be excellent if simple fix of new in tank pump

 

[Philblack]

Spent quite a few hours on this yesterday.

Still starting fine, first go every time so far. Checked connections and wiring at the in-tank fuel pump, removed headlamp and checked wiring, connectors and loom to engine ECU, fuse and relay box. Undid every connector etc everything in this area is shiny, clean and dry, no signs of chaffing or damage anywhere.

As a test I tried starting first with just the fuel pump wiring disconnected and then with just the fuel pump relay pulled. In both cases an immediate non start but also no fault codes after multiple start attempts in both scenarios. So exactly the symptoms I have. I have swapped over the relay with the washer motor one as they are identical. I have also ordered a new in tank fuel pump, as there's no easy way to test with an intermittent fault like this, and at 15 years old it could just be worn out.

I also pulled the fuel filter, this was a new UFI filter/housing assembly which I fitted about 6 years ago. Feeling a bit guilty not having changed this sooner as we have done over 50,000 miles since then. The filter element is jet black but other than very discoloured no obvious crud or sediment, I think it was originally white, picking a new one up this afternoon.

Once I have the new parts fitted, I think I will venture some test drives but will only stop the engine when back at home.

Feeling a bit more positive that one or a combination of the above may have resolved the issue

Will keep that forum updated

 

[jackwhoo]

Spent quite a few hours on this yesterday.

Still starting fine, first go every time so far. Checked connections and wiring at the in-tank fuel pump, removed headlamp and checked wiring, connectors and loom to engine ECU, fuse and relay box. Undid every connector etc everything in this area is shiny, clean and dry, no signs of chaffing or damage anywhere.

As a test I tried starting first with just the fuel pump wiring disconnected and then with just the fuel pump relay pulled. In both cases an immediate non start but also no fault codes after multiple start attempts in both scenarios. So exactly the symptoms I have. I have swapped over the relay with the washer motor one as they are identical. I have also ordered a new in tank fuel pump, as there's no easy way to test with an intermittent fault like this, and at 15 years old it could just be worn out.

I also pulled the fuel filter, this was a new UFI filter/housing assembly which I fitted about 6 years ago. Feeling a bit guilty not having changed this sooner as we have done over 50,000 miles since then. The filter element is jet black but other than very discoloured no obvious crud or sediment, I think it was originally white, picking a new one up this afternoon.

Once I have the new parts fitted, I think I will venture some test drives but will only stop the engine when back at home.

Feeling a bit more positive that one or a combination of the above may have resolved the issue

Will keep that forum updated

In tank fuel pump failure will very often give no fault code

 

[Charlie 58]

Hi Phil, if it fails to start again check that the rpm counter needle moves on cranking,
That will indicate whether the crank sensor is giving a signal,
Regarding fuel pressure, was the code triggered by the garage or from a clear event memory ,
The earthing points are a known issue, you may have resolved it,
My 3 litre ducato was crank no start only with a hot engine , crank sensor code,
Using some info on here cam signal was retarded on a scope trace comparison,
Replaced the stretched timing chains as the timing pins wouldn't line up,
Good luck,