Technical Does Anyone Have Knowledge Of Speed Sensors From 2004ish?

[woodbine66]

I don't want to say which Fiat I'm referring to, as the mods will probably move this thread to the appropriate model forum where it will get few views and zero posts. The vehicle I'm referring to has the 2.0 HDi engine and is from 2004.

The other day I went to change the speed sensor on the differential because the speedo, odometer and trip meter stopped working suddenly. At the same time I started getting hesitancy in lower gears, so thinking the sensor is broken and not sending speed info to the ECU.

Anyway, due to poor access I hired a rent a ramp car lift for a couple of hours. I pulled the old speed sensor out, losing a fair bit of gearbox oil in the process. When I pulled the shaft with gear on it out of the hole in the sensor, I could see that the old sensor had no square drive up inside the hole. However, the new Febi sensor that is identical in all other respects has a square drive up inside the hole that stops my original shaft going in as far as it should go. Please see photo, you can just make out a square drive inside the hole. So I was unable to fit the new sensor.

My question - do some speed sensors of this era for the 2.0 engine have a square drive up inside, and others have nothing up inside the hole? The new Febi sensor says it should be compatible with the Fiat part number - I checked on Eper. Any advice or knowledge of older speed sensors would be appreciated - inc. poss. info on testing these units.

 

[woodbine66]

This is a photo of a gear shaft for a speed sensor. It has a square hole in it which obviously fits onto the square drive up inside the hole in sensor. The part number seems correct for my vehicle (9600936680) according to Eper. But my sensor has no square drive up inside and there is no square hole in the end of the gear shaft. Very confusing!

 

[jackwhoo]

You will get much more help if you state the full details of the vehicle model......
Lots of people watch the new posts to the forum which includes all sections.

 

[jackwhoo]

Is it possible the square peg has broken off in the square hole?

 

[PuntoHowTo]

Would seem possibly quite obvious to suggest that the square drive from the old sensor has broken off and is probably still in the hole in the hole on the gear in the gearbox

2.0L HDI would suggest it’s a Ducato or scudo

 

[woodbine66]

Apologies for the secrecy. Just that whenever I post in the appropriate model section, I never get any replies. I've had more replies to this thread in here than I would have starting 5 different threads in the model specific section.

Anyway, yes I suppose it's possible the square drive snapped off and is stuck in the end of the gear shaft. The boss of the garage who rents the ramps spent some time with me inspecting it and trying to source an alternative new sensor. Would be surprised if he missed something so basic - though an amateur like me could have missed it.

Unfortunately being on the clock for ramp rental means you are always rushing. I just had to put the old sensor back in with the shaft so I could refill with gearbox oil so I could get the vehicle home. So I don't have the old parts at hand to inspect. Going back tomorrow to pull out the old sensor again and poss temporarily fit the new Febi sensor minus the shaft. Then I can inspect old parts at my leisure.

Just wondered if there were several different types of sensors that look similar but have slight differences. Local Fiat dealer said they could get one from Italy for £130 plus VAT. Will have a look at the old parts tomorrow and report back. Thanks for all advice and help so far.

 

[ben]

I've moved this to scudo but mirrored it back to let's talk fiat, so you get the best of both worlds

 

[woodbine66]

I've moved this to scudo but mirrored it back to let's talk fiat, so you get the best of both worlds

Thanks, you're a star!

 

[PuntoHowTo]

Thanks, you're a star!

No need to be secretive about it, just do as you’ve done and be up front. I try to check new posts to see if there is anything I can help with but appreciate there are certain sections of the forum which are quieter. @bugsymike might be a good person to offer advise on this as he is a seasoned mechanic but also has been working on his own 2.0hdi van so might have some insight

I’ve tagged him so hopefully he’ll find his way over here.

As least now you can get some help and if someone has a similar problem in the future they can find your thread in the right section

 

[bugsymike]

Don't know if I can be much help on this, the one I have at present is a 2010 2.0 HDi 16 valve Scudo.
Is it possible the Febi drive you bought is for the earlier gearbox where some would have had cable speedo drive and some electrical so it had to serve both types, whereas a later one would have no need for a square drive option?
Assuming nothing broken off and still stuck in original drive preventing new sensor engaging?
Were you able to pull the drive out for a good look?
Surprised oil ran out, most vehicle speedo drives are just above normal oil level on diff.

 

[woodbine66]

Would seem possibly quite obvious to suggest that the square drive from the old sensor has broken off and is probably still in the hole in the hole on the gear in the gearbox

2.0L HDI would suggest it’s a Ducato or scudo

Pulled the old sensor and shaft that fits inside it from van today. Can confirm that the shaft is blank on the end - no square hole for square drive inside sensor to fit into. Nothing has snapped off. Looks like Fiat fitted two types. One where the shaft has a square hole that fits into the square drive inside hole in sensor. Other where the shaft just spins inside the hole without actually driving anything. Suppose it works on magnetism. Don't know if the two types of sensor and shaft are interchangeable.

 

[bugsymike]

Pulled the old sensor and shaft that fits inside it from van today. Can confirm that the shaft is blank on the end - no square hole for square drive inside sensor to fit into. Nothing has snapped off. Looks like Fiat fitted two types. One where the shaft has a square hole that fits into the square drive inside hole in sensor. Other where the shaft just spins inside the hole without actually driving anything. Suppose it works on magnetism. Don't know if the two types of sensor and shaft are interchangeable.

It may be possible to get more information from a Peugeot site as I believe those engines/gearboxes were from the PSA range and not actually Fiat.
When I wanted to do engine diagnostics on mine, Fiat MultiEcuScan wouldn't work on it, so I had to get another Diagnostics Tool, Maxiecu as it covered the other Fiats I have as well. Although I have recently bought a 2014 Vauxhall Corsa 1.3 Multijet allegedly a rebadged Fiat Doblo which it will not talk to either!
My Scudo 16 valve is a RHR/RHK (Peugeot DW10BTED4) it is possible if yours is the early 8 valve RHW?
Maybe DW10 but the 8 valve version, do you know if yours is 8 or 16 valve?
You would need to check but possibly:-
" The 2.0L 8-valve (1,997 cc) DW10 90,107,109,110,120,136,140,150,163 and 180 bhp is part of the PSA EW/DW engine family. It is equipped with a fixed-geometry turbocharger. Initially available in the midsized models such as the Citroën Xsara and Xantia and Peugeot 206, 306 and 406."
Any chance the drive gear needs changing to match the Febi version, does supplier offer it ?

 

[woodbine66]

It may be possible to get more information from a Peugeot site as I believe those engines/gearboxes were from the PSA range and not actually Fiat.
When I wanted to do engine diagnostics on mine, Fiat MultiEcuScan wouldn't work on it, so I had to get another Diagnostics Tool, Maxiecu as it covered the other Fiats I have as well. Although I have recently bought a 2014 Vauxhall Corsa 1.3 Multijet allegedly a rebadged Fiat Doblo which it will not talk to either!
My Scudo 16 valve is a RHR/RHK (Peugeot DW10BTED4) it is possible if yours is the early 8 valve RHW?
Maybe DW10 but the 8 valve version, do you know if yours is 8 or 16 valve?
You would need to check but possibly:-
" The 2.0L 8-valve (1,997 cc) DW10 90,107,109,110,120,136,140,150,163 and 180 bhp is part of the PSA EW/DW engine family. It is equipped with a fixed-geometry turbocharger. Initially available in the midsized models such as the Citroën Xsara and Xantia and Peugeot 206, 306 and 406."
Any chance the drive gear needs changing to match the Febi version, does supplier offer it ?

Thanks for taking the time to supply all that info. Not sure if Febi can supply the appropriate gear shaft for the sensor. I think mine is 8 valve - only looks to be one cam - not sure how I would check otherwise.

I have pulled the original sensor out and temporarily fitted the wrong Febi one without any gear shaft. Below are photos of the shaft without square hole, unlike the example in my earlier post. Just seems strange that Febi say their part is compatible with the Fiat part number. Maybe as you say, I need the correct gear shaft too.

EDIT>>>>>> Just checked the Febi online catalogue and no seperate gear shaft available.

 

[woodbine66]

This shows the square drive up inside the Febi part -

 

[bugsymike]

Thanks for taking the time to supply all that info. Not sure if Febi can supply the appropriate gear shaft for the sensor. I think mine is 8 valve - only looks to be one cam - not sure how I would check otherwise.

I have pulled the original sensor out and temporarily fitted the wrong Febi one without any gear shaft. Below are photos of the shaft without square hole, unlike the example in my earlier post. Just seems strange that Febi say their part is compatible with the Fiat part number. Maybe as you say, I need the correct gear shaft too.

EDIT>>>>>> Just checked the Febi online catalogue and no seperate gear shaft available.


View attachment 447082View attachment 447083View attachment 447084

Looking at your photo of your old sensor and drive, my suspicion is the Febi one is from an older model, so wrong for your gearbox.
Incidentally don't try and clean with screwdriver or similar as it may disturb any magnetic vanes used to trigger the sensor much like ABS sensors in wheel bearings.
I don't suppose you have a SKF ABS bearing test card like this, as if so it may show if magnet side correct.
I got this one at a Mechanics Trade Show and it is really useful to prove if some "idiot mechanic" has poked a magnetised screwdriver down the abs Sensor hole when trying to clean dirt out, but destroying the wheel bearings ABS Vanes at the same time!

 

[woodbine66]

Looking at your photo of your old sensor and drive, my suspicion is the Febi one is from an older model, so wrong for your gearbox.
Incidentally don't try and clean with screwdriver or similar as it may disturb any magnetic vanes used to trigger the sensor much like ABS sensors in wheel bearings.
I don't suppose you have a SKF ABS bearing test card like this, as if so it may show if magnet side correct.
I got this one at a Mechanics Trade Show and it is really useful to prove if some "idiot mechanic" has poked a magnetised screwdriver down the abs Sensor hole when trying to clean dirt out, but destroying the wheel bearings ABS Vanes at the same time!

Thanks again for the info, bugsy. Don't have one of those test cards as never had a vehicle with ABS. I got it into my head that maybe the end of the shaft had a plastic insert (looks like all others have insert with square hole) which had come away and was lodged up inside sensor hole. Could see something up there which I could move with a small (non magnetised!!!) screwdriver. Couldn't get it out whatever I tried so cut old sensor in half.

Anyway, turns out nothing has come adrift. There never was a square hole in end of shaft or square drive up inside the sensor. But if I get the part nos from Eper for my van and search for it, they all have square drives in the sensor and square holes in the end of shaft. Can't find anything without these.

So I never was going to be able to fit that new Febi sensor to the original shaft. Suppose I should buy a new shaft with square hole and hope it fits into the Febi sensor. Because I don't think I can find parts the same as what I have.

Plenty of new shafts available online with square hole -

Шестерня 20Z зубчатое колесо спидометра 9600936680 на Fiat, Peugeot, Citroen 1995-2007 год | Avtorazbor — магазин автозапчастин

www.avto-razbor.com.ua

 

[bugsymike]

Thanks again for the info, bugsy. Don't have one of those test cards as never had a vehicle with ABS. I got it into my head that maybe the end of the shaft had a plastic insert (looks like all others have insert with square hole) which had come away and was lodged up inside sensor hole. Could see something up there which I could move with a small (non magnetised!!!) screwdriver. Couldn't get it out whatever I tried so cut old sensor in half.

Anyway, turns out nothing has come adrift. There never was a square hole in end of shaft or square drive up inside the sensor. But if I get the part nos from Eper for my van and search for it, they all have square drives in the sensor and square holes in the end of shaft. Can't find anything without these.

So I never was going to be able to fit that new Febi sensor to the original shaft. Suppose I should buy a new shaft with square hole and hope it fits into the Febi sensor. Because I don't think I can find parts the same as what I have.

Plenty of new shafts available online with square hole -

Шестерня 20Z зубчатое колесо спидометра 9600936680 на Fiat, Peugeot, Citroen 1995-2007 год | Avtorazbor — магазин автозапчастин

www.avto-razbor.com.ua

I was lucky to get that ABS test card, I have never seen one advertised since. I suppose if careful you could put some iron filings on a piece of paper and hold close to test, but this one from SKF bearings is a nice reliable way to test.
Just did a quick eBay search, this one complete with gear is from China but there may be similar ones more local.:-
eBay item number:394812840207.
Obviously up to you to confirm suitability.
I just tapped in scudo speedo drive on a search.
I have heard Eper isn't always 100% accurate.

 

[woodbine66]

Thanks. Had a look at the link and seems to be the sort of thing I need. I'm going to buy an OEM Fiat gear shaft (plenty about, just not in UK) and try fitting it to the new Febi sensor. I can compare dimensions, teeth numbers, etc with originals. Just that I have to go back to rent a ramp place to do it. In for a penny!

 

[PuntoHowTo]

I was lucky to get that ABS test card, I have never seen one advertised since. I suppose if careful you could put some iron filings on a piece of paper and hold close to test, but this one from SKF bearings is a nice reliable way to test.

Search for “magnetic field paper” or “magnetic field film” and you soon find it on eBay and Amazon it can also be very cheap

 

[woodbine66]

Update>>>>

Recently I ordered the correct shaft with gear on end that fits into the new speed sensor from company in Italy. It has the corrrect square hole in the end that fits the square drive up inside the new Febi sensor. Yesterday I went back for the third time to the rent a a ramp place in Cheltenham and fitted the new sensor and it's new shaft and topped up the gearbox oil with the same quantity that came out while old sensor was removed from hole in diff. Went without a hitch and that's how it could have gone on day one, if the manufacturers hadn't slightly altered a part that you don't find out about until you pull things apart and oil is draining out.

What gets me, is after extensive Googling, I can find no reference to there being any changes to this part or alternatives being available.

This seemingly simple job has certainly tried my patience. Still, the van has been completely reliable over my 17 years of ownership, so not bad overall.

Having to drive from Bristol to Cheltenham and back three times to the rent-a-ramp place and pay to use ramp each time - probably would have been cheaper to take it to main stealer and get them to replace sensor. But once you start, you're committed (or perhaps I should be after this!). You live and learn!

As I was fitting the sensor, I still had the nagging doubt that after all this, it still might be something else at fault. However, as I drove away from the ramp garage, the speedo needle came to life to my great relief. For the first time since March, I now have a working speedo, odometer and trip meter. The slight hesitancy/jerkiness in low gears at lower speeds has now disappeared and engine runs perfectly as I assume the ECU is now getting some info from the new working sensor that it needs. I'm hoping my MPG will now go back up a bit as it seemed to drop since the sensor went out.

I now can claim to be an expert on Scudo/Expert/Dispatch speed sensors.

Thanks to everyone for your help and advice. Until the next time.................