Technical Difficulty shifting into 1st and 2nd gear

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Technical Difficulty shifting into 1st and 2nd gear

Thanks for your thoughts everyone! :worship:

try reverse when the gearbox is both warmed up and cold

the symptom above is sounding like clutch drag.
Cold (keeping clutch pressed down through the whole procedure):
Neutral - start engine - shift into 1st - 5 secs - neutral - 5 secs - reverse. No grinding gears.
Shortened the second interval to 2 secs: no grinding gears.
Car doesn't move when revving in reverse with clutch pressed either.

Warmed up: 9 out of 10 of my trips are only 15 minutes, I'll need to check that after a longer ride.

:confused:Really? It's a LHD cable operated clutch.

@Skuur: Lekker weer om te sleutelen vandaag toch?:D

gr J
Yeah, I asked the Panda if he'd like to join me and skate on the ice as well... he told me he's a panda, not a polar bear. :D

If it's a cable - the OP needs a new clutch.
I've read about that issue before on low mileage Pandas. :(

thats a big jump without any diagnostics ?

could just need adjusting, because its stretched. Would be my first move. I would tighten it if needed if or not and see if thing improved before buying anything.

or gearbox
Yep, I hope so too, I'll / we'll check that first. Greater procedures will have to wait until summer anyway, if neccessary.


Or the synchromeshes have suffered from a previous owner ramming it into gear when still driving too fast.
Langedijk... Pretty close, but in todays snow still far away. And we are still in lockdown.

gr J
That's one of my suspicions as well, since the car only has 60k km (~40k miles) on it.

Since TS lives close by, he is hereby invited to come around after the snow has cleared.
I'm sure I can point out the clutchcable and even adjust it if needed.

gr J
I'll gladly accept that offer Jeroen! I'll contact you via Private Messages when the snow's gone and most of the stuff I've gotten behind on because of the inheritance is sorted out.

make sure a mat hasn't slid under the pedal

this may help

-website I cannot link to because my post count is under 5-
I'll check both this week!


One other thing I noticed during last week's cold temperatures (0 to minus 10 degrees C), was that downshifting into 2nd gear became more difficult. A couple of times I had to skip 2nd when downshifting because it would've taken an unhealthy amount of force to get the box down into 2nd. Also didn't pop into 2nd after a couple of seconds.

So, I've got written down to check:
- Check the mat hasn't slid under the pedal
- Check pedal travel according to the guide Koalar posted
- Check bowden cable or hydraulic cilinder (with Jeroen?)
- Check gearbox oil level or change oil
- Clutch or syncromesh rings
 
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It's been a while... :eek: The good news: I've found the likely cause.

Quoting myself:
One other thing I noticed during last week's cold temperatures (0 to minus 10 degrees C), was that downshifting into 2nd gear became more difficult. A couple of times I had to skip 2nd when downshifting because it would've taken an unhealthy amount of force to get the box down into 2nd. Also didn't pop into 2nd after a couple of seconds.
Difficult shifting appears every time the outside temperature drops below 5-10 C, but after a trip of about 45 minutes, the issue disappears and the gearbox shifts smoothly. I didn't notice this a couple of months ago, since most of my trips are 20-30 minutes max (home - work).
No problems at all when it's hot and sunny outside, I can shift gears right off using my pinky finger. (almost :))

This temperature-behaviour pattern is replicable every time the weather changes. This makes me believe it's in the gearbox its temperature and old transmission oil (higher viscosity).

- Check the mat hasn't slid under the pedal
- Check pedal travel according to the guide Koalar posted
- Check bowden cable or hydraulic cilinder (with Jeroen?)
- Check gearbox oil level or change oil
- Clutch or syncromesh rings
- Mat is in its proper position.
- Pedal travel is spot on to the guide its values.
- I've located both gearshift bowden cables, in clear view behind the battery. I wonder how I could've missed them earlier. :confused:
- Seeing the issue disappears at higher temperatures, no matter whether that's outside temperature or the engine (gearbox) warming up, I'll first change the transmission oil when I get to it.
I see no mention of transmission oil in the maintenance log, so the current oil must be 14 years old with 63.000 km / 39.100 miles on it.
- Clutch or synchromesh, doesn't sound likely anymore. :worship:

Thanks again to all for your help. :D
 
Thanks for the update, I agree an oil change is a good place to start.

The correct transmission oil is 75W-80, and according to Guy from Opie Oils on this forum API GL4 might be kinder to our gearboxes than GL5, but there's not a big difference.

75W-90 is much more common and widely available (I had to order my 75W-80), but has higher viscosity at operating temperature.

If an oil change doesn't help, and if the clutch cable has been adjusted, there are two things that occur to me:

1. Sticking gear cable / selector?
One cable moves the selector in the gearbox housing forwards and backwards (so 3rd & 4th in the central position are fine).
The other cable moves the selector left and right to access 1st/2nd, and 5th/reverse (mounted on top of the gearbox, circled in image). Could this cable or selector be stiff/worn? Capture.JPG

2. Play in the gearbox input shaft?
My transmission used to regularly crunch on downshifts to 3rd. New transmission oil improved it a bit, but a new input shaft bearing has got rid of the crunch altogether.
Gearchange is much smoother and the transmission is noticeably quieter.
I never had difficulty engaging gears, though, so it might not be related to your issue.

There are a couple of ways to check if your input shaft bearing is worn:

  • If your car is rattling in neutral with the engine on, but the rattle goes away when you press the clutch (as the clutch plate supports the shaft).
  • There's an inspection hole in the top of the bell-housing. If you poke a finger in (with the engine OFF!) and it comes out black & oily, the input shaft seal is leaking due to play in the shaft.
 
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almost certainty the selector cable. Same symptoms as my car.


seeing as it fail before a drive


before switching the engine on. Twist the selector lever at the back of the gearbox, behind the battery. Clockwise and anti clockwise. If its smooth here but stiff via the gear lever then the fault is the cable. Part 1 in the diagram above


That how I confirmed mine before I changing it.
 
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As summer came around the issues disappeared, so I hadn't thought about it anymore until recently. End of summer, colder weather, end of smooth gearbox. Alright, let's get some oil.

I looked up the prescribed transmission oil in the manual, Tutela Car ZC75 Synth, SAE 75W-80, API GL5, MIL-L-2015D.
Alright, thanks for the details. Couldn't get that specific type locally, so I went to find its specification sheet and compare it to other gearbox oils to see which were most similar to the Tutela.
First candidate: Eurol MTF 75W80 GL5 MIL-L-2015D.
Second candidate: Motul Motylgear 75W-80 GL4/GL5 MIL-L-2015D.
Both had in its specification sheet they're suitable for synchromesh gearboxes, are easy on 'yellow parts and plastics', etc. Both their technology boiled down to semi-synthetic. Fine to me.
The Eurol oil is slightly thinner, whereas the Motul oil its viscosity was within a few percent of the Tutela. Bought the Motul.

Changing the oil was easy peasy. Finding a 12 mm hex key in the workshop was the most difficult part. :D The old oil had gotten brown, but no metal flakes in it and no burnt smell. Good.
I went for a test drive. Gear stick felt smoother, changing gears felt smoother, gears engaged more rapidly. Half of the time I can shift gears using one finger, even when the engine's still cold. :eek:

This morning I had to remove ice from my Panda its windshield for the first time since... March? Great for a test.
Ha, even when cold, changing gears is definitely smoother now! It doesn't feel anymore as if I'm stirring syrup. (y)

Downshifting into second or first gear often still requires double clutching or a bit more effort, but that's no big deal. Having to wait 3 seconds before the gearbox pops into 3rd gear is a problem instead when accelerating. Ah, I'll miss the sound of horns behind me. ;)

Thanks all! :worship:


1. Sticking gear cable / selector?
One cable moves the selector in the gearbox housing forwards and backwards (so 3rd & 4th in the central position are fine).
The other cable moves the selector left and right to access 1st/2nd, and 5th/reverse (mounted on top of the gearbox, circled in image). Could this cable or selector be stiff/worn?View attachment 218383
Checked both cables, both were good. The left/right movement itself wasn't a problem.


2. Play in the gearbox input shaft?
My transmission used to regularly crunch on downshifts to 3rd. New transmission oil improved it a bit, but a new input shaft bearing has got rid of the crunch altogether.
Gearchange is much smoother and the transmission is noticeably quieter.
I never had difficulty engaging gears, though, so it might not be related to your issue.


There are a couple of ways to check if your input shaft bearing is worn:

  • If your car is rattling in neutral with the engine on, but the rattle goes away when you press the clutch (as the clutch plate supports the shaft).
  • There's an inspection hole in the top of the bell-housing. If you poke a finger in (with the engine OFF!) and it comes out black & oily, the input shaft seal is leaking due to play in the shaft.
I notice no rattle with the gearbox in neutral. An inspection hole, hmm, I will check next time I open the bonnet, even if it'd only be out of curiosity.
 
I wonder how much oil came out of the transmission? I suspect mine was low when I got it as it did improve noticeably after an oil change.

If the oil level has been low at any point there's a high chance the input shaft bearing may have overheated, resulting in a degree of play in the shaft.

I check my transmission oil level every year now. New input shaft bearing and seal is the kind of job I'd rather not do twice.

It might be an idea to check for oil leaks - driveshaft seals and selector seals are also known to leak with age.

We took our Panda to Apeldoorn last month - good to see a lot of 169 Pandas still happily buzzing about in the Netherlands:)
 
If its a cable clutch (there is no adjustment) the OP needs a new clutch.

RHD car comment -
If its hydraulic the OP needs a new clutch master cylinder. It can be tested by bleeding the hydraulics but a worn master will soon pull in air and the problem returns. A bare master cylinder will cost under £60. Avoid those with refilled pipes.

If bleeding the master make no difference the clutch has to be the problem.
 
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