Technical Cold start issues X230 2.8 JTD 2002

[Urco]

Been suffering with a cold start issue for around 1 year now. It has been difficult to find a solution. Let me try to give a short description to clarify the issues. Hope you have some hints for me. My motorhome is a 2002 Hymer B524 based on a X230 Ducato with 2.8 JTD engine (8140.43S).

The cold start issues started around 1 year ago. Initially, after starting, the engine would run normally but the engine cooling fans immediately started blowing at full speed together with the injector warning light staying on.
After driving for about 1 or 2 minutes the warning light would go out and the fans would go back to normal speed and subsequent starting during the day was without any issues. At the next cold start the following day this behavior would happen again.

The issues have deteriorated since this June.
The engine now has more troubles after starting, idle drops quite a bit below normal and the engine will run roughly. Additionally, a couple of times it also occurred that the gas pedal became completely non-responsive. After a couple of minutes all of a sudden the idle goes back to normal and the engine starts running normally again. The rest of the day everything stays normal. This is now happening more frequently.

I already replaced the flame start plug to be sure. I was aware that this flame start mechanism is only used at lower temperatues, so it did not make any difference to be honest. Also reading out the ECU gives no error messages.
A couple of months ago the garage had a look, but at that time the issue was not happening, so they also could not identify what the issue was.
In the past the motorhome also had some electrical issues, the known issue with the connector between the gas pedal and computer. To fix this I cut out the connector and soldered the wires together. The cold start issues are most likely not related to this I think.

Not sure what to do now. Any hints are much appreciated. Thanks.

 

[bugsymike]

Been suffering with a cold start issue for around 1 year now. It has been difficult to find a solution. Let me try to give a short description to clarify the issues. Hope you have some hints for me. My motorhome is a 2002 Hymer B524 based on a X230 Ducato with 2.8 JTD engine (8140.43S).

The cold start issues started around 1 year ago. Initially, after starting, the engine would run normally but the engine cooling fans immediately started blowing at full speed together with the injector warning light staying on.
After driving for about 1 or 2 minutes the warning light would go out and the fans would go back to normal speed and subsequent starting during the day was without any issues. At the next cold start the following day this behavior would happen again.

The issues have deteriorated since this June.
The engine now has more troubles after starting, idle drops quite a bit below normal and the engine will run roughly. Additionally, a couple of times it also occurred that the gas pedal became completely non-responsive. After a couple of minutes all of a sudden the idle goes back to normal and the engine starts running normally again. The rest of the day everything stays normal. This is now happening more frequently.

I already replaced the flame start plug to be sure. I was aware that this flame start mechanism is only used at lower temperatues, so it did not make any difference to be honest. Also reading out the ECU gives no error messages.
A couple of months ago the garage had a look, but at that time the issue was not happening, so they also could not identify what the issue was.
In the past the motorhome also had some electrical issues, the known issue with the connector between the gas pedal and computer. To fix this I cut out the connector and soldered the wires together. The cold start issues are most likely not related to this I think.

Not sure what to do now. Any hints are much appreciated. Thanks.

Is there any chance the two issues are not related?
Assuming no fuel delivery problem like low pressure pump, air getting in system via fuel lines or fuel filter etc. ?
Then high pressure pump and fuel cut off valve at pump (depending on what set up) or fuel high pressure regulator.
Ideally live data read at the time from cold may help assuming suitable diagnostics which I know is a problem on older commercials. I used to run Iveco Daily's with that engine and the earlier versions, it always frustrated me not being able to read them as similar age cars that used OBD ports.
Incidentally when it starts from cold and runs roughly, do you notice any white smoke from exhaust?
If white smoke then that is one direction when running rough from cold , but if no smoke but running rough it may indicate a fuel supply problem rather a fuel not igniting problem , if you see what I mean.

 

[Greasytrucker]

Been suffering with a cold start issue for around 1 year now. It has been difficult to find a solution. Let me try to give a short description to clarify the issues. Hope you have some hints for me. My motorhome is a 2002 Hymer B524 based on a X230 Ducato with 2.8 JTD engine (8140.43S).

The cold start issues started around 1 year ago. Initially, after starting, the engine would run normally but the engine cooling fans immediately started blowing at full speed together with the injector warning light staying on.
After driving for about 1 or 2 minutes the warning light would go out and the fans would go back to normal speed and subsequent starting during the day was without any issues. At the next cold start the following day this behavior would happen again.

The issues have deteriorated since this June.
The engine now has more troubles after starting, idle drops quite a bit below normal and the engine will run roughly. Additionally, a couple of times it also occurred that the gas pedal became completely non-responsive. After a couple of minutes all of a sudden the idle goes back to normal and the engine starts running normally again. The rest of the day everything stays normal. This is now happening more frequently.

I already replaced the flame start plug to be sure. I was aware that this flame start mechanism is only used at lower temperatues, so it did not make any difference to be honest. Also reading out the ECU gives no error messages.
A couple of months ago the garage had a look, but at that time the issue was not happening, so they also could not identify what the issue was.
In the past the motorhome also had some electrical issues, the known issue with the connector between the gas pedal and computer. To fix this I cut out the connector and soldered the wires together. The cold start issues are most likely not related to this I think.

Not sure what to do now. Any hints are much appreciated. Thanks.

Starting an engine with the coolant temperature sensor disconnected often makes the cooling fans run at full speed. Could the coolant temperature sensor be faulty?

 

[Urco]

Is there any chance the two issues are not related?
Assuming no fuel delivery problem like low pressure pump, air getting in system via fuel lines or fuel filter etc. ?
Then high pressure pump and fuel cut off valve at pump (depending on what set up) or fuel high pressure regulator.
Ideally live data read at the time from cold may help assuming suitable diagnostics which I know is a problem on older commercials. I used to run Iveco Daily's with that engine and the earlier versions, it always frustrated me not being able to read them as similar age cars that used OBD ports.
Incidentally when it starts from cold and runs roughly, do you notice any white smoke from exhaust?
If white smoke then that is one direction when running rough from cold , but if no smoke but running rough it may indicate a fuel supply problem rather a fuel not igniting problem , if you see what I mean.

Thanks for your reply. I think the two issues are related as the fans are still running at maximum speed when starting while it is running rough and with an irresponsive pedal. So I think it is still related, but it has just gotten worse. Indeed, pretty frustrating the limted possibilities with reading out the ECU with these older OBD ports.
Didn't notice any white smoke to be honest. From your suggestion that would indicate a fuel supply problem. What would be a good next step to identify it properly?

 

[Urco]

Starting an engine with the coolant temperature sensor disconnected often makes the cooling fans run at full speed. Could the coolant temperature sensor be faulty?

That's actually the only thing the workshop checked. They did run it up to temperature and performed some checks and found nothing strange. (but it was starting normally at the workshop.....)

 

[bugsymike]

Thanks for your reply. I think the two issues are related as the fans are still running at maximum speed when starting while it is running rough and with an irresponsive pedal. So I think it is still related, but it has just gotten worse. Indeed, pretty frustrating the limted possibilities with reading out the ECU with these older OBD ports.
Didn't notice any white smoke to be honest. From your suggestion that would indicate a fuel supply problem. What would be a good next step to identify it properly?

If you smell/see no unburnt fuel/white smoke when first starting and engine sounding rough that may indicate either small air bubbles in fuel/ slight air leak at fuel filter causing the rough running until it clears or on the high pressure side something else causing low fuel pressure in the common rail, this of course would be much easier to check with a suitable diagnostic tool giving live data.
It may be worth contacting Gendan online to see if their products with the correct three pin adaptor could give you the live data etc. thast you need.I did a quick look at site re then Ducato 2.8 JTD for coverage, but it may be worth speaking or emailing them with your needs.

Fiat Ducato (type 230) 2.8 JTD

Bosch EDC15C7 CF3 Diesel Injection (2.0, 2.3, 2.8) |INFO|DTC|DTC EX|PRM|ACT|ADJ| KLELM3-Pin ZF 4HP20 Automatic Gearbox |INFO|DTC|DTC EX|PRM|ADJ| KLELM3-Pin Bosch ABS 5.3 |INFO|DTC|PRM|ACT| KL3-Pin Breed Airbag MY97 |INFO|DTC|PRM| KL3-Pin

 

[Urco]

If you smell/see no unburnt fuel/white smoke when first starting and engine sounding rough that may indicate either small air bubbles in fuel/ slight air leak at fuel filter causing the rough running until it clears or on the high pressure side something else causing low fuel pressure in the common rail, this of course would be much easier to check with a suitable diagnostic tool giving live data.
It may be worth contacting Gendan online to see if their products with the correct three pin adaptor could give you the live data etc. thast you need.I did a quick look at site re then Ducato 2.8 JTD for coverage, but it may be worth speaking or emailing them with your needs.

Fiat Ducato (type 230) 2.8 JTD

Bosch EDC15C7 CF3 Diesel Injection (2.0, 2.3, 2.8) |INFO|DTC|DTC EX|PRM|ACT|ADJ| KLELM3-Pin ZF 4HP20 Automatic Gearbox |INFO|DTC|DTC EX|PRM|ADJ| KLELM3-Pin Bosch ABS 5.3 |INFO|DTC|PRM|ACT| KL3-Pin Breed Airbag MY97 |INFO|DTC|PRM| KL3-Pin

Agree with you, it is a bit too much guessing at the moment otherwise. Thanks for the suggestion with Gendan, I'll try that route first and see what options are available. Appreciate your help.

 

[Communicator]

Starting an engine with the coolant temperature sensor disconnected often makes the cooling fans run at full speed. Could the coolant temperature sensor be faulty?

Another function of the coolant temperature sensor, is to advance the injection via the ECU, as an aid to starting when the engine is cold.

 

[Urco]

That was a good suggestion trying to get some working diagnostics. Gendan weren’t able to deliver internationally, but I found a local supplier. Ran Multiecuscan with a OBDlink MX+ interface which showed fault code P0115 - Water temperature sensor. So we have something to work with now! I’ll do some investigation which part to replace, if you have some information about this already that would also be nice. Thanks.

 

[Communicator]

The 2.8jtd has two temperature sensors. One is for the temperature gauge and warning light, while the second, which may be faulty is connected to the ECU. This second sensor is the smaller of the two. It has an M12 x 1.5 thread, and measures 19mm over the hexagon flats.
The sensors are almost completely hidden behind intercooler air hoses, but a sneak view may be obtained at the vehicle LHS of the engine. On my RHD x244, I was able to remove the air inlet hose, air filter, and housing. ("Clik" pliers required for hose clips. Swivel headed type easier to use.) With the air filter hosing removed I was able to get my head in and reach the slightly nearer gauge sensor. The ECU sensor is slightly further towards the RHS of the vehicle. I do not know whether the brake servo, on a LHD model would affect access. For a straight on view you may to need to remove the intercooler hoses, which could have special clips.

My problem was with the gauge sensor, as the gauge was indicating normal with a cold engine. I checked with a new sensor held in an earting jump lead, and connector transferred. All OK. Rechecked with original sensor, still OK. Used contact cleaner for good measure, and refitted all components.

I advise trying something similar before removing original sensor.

If the sensor does need replacing you may need to partially drain the cooling system. I was considering the following method which I have used on the x244 clutch hydraulic system. No guarantee but it may save draining the cooling system.

Method. Fill the coolant reservoir completely, and secure a piece of thin plastic over the filler opening. The idea is to create a vacuum if coolant is lost. Carefully loosen the old sensor being prepared to fit the new one immediately. The method may work, but has not been tested on the sensor.

Warning. My vehicle is an x244,m so there could be differences.

 

[Urco]

Hi Communicator,
That's very useful information. Will use your hints to get to work next weekend. Have ordered a replacement sensor just to be sure.
Will report back next weekend!

 

[Urco]

That went rather smoothly this morning. Just to be sure I replaced both temperature sensors (around 25 euros in total).
Needed to remove 2 air hoses, with a 19mm and 22mm spanner the sensors were easily replaceable. Lost only 100ml of coolant, that was easily topped up again. Some before and after pictures are added.

Cleared the fault code, did a test drive. Starting issues were not there anymore, engine was also running very well. No new error codes for the moment, so it is looking positive. Planning a trip next week, I’ll be able to do some more thorough testing.

 

[Urco]

500km onwards this week it all looks good still. So pretty confident the issue is fixed! (Thanks for the hints)

 

[Communicator]

500km onwards this week it all looks good still. So pretty confident the issue is fixed! (Thanks for the hints)

Unless you have any objection, I will add the "after" photo to my library, so that I may re-use it to assist others.

 

[Urco]

Feel free to do so, that’s perfectly fine for me!