Technical Clutch disengagement

[Thomas Vaughan]

Hello, I'm having a bit of trouble with my clutch. The cars never been driven since I've owned it and I'm trying to sort the gears out now the engine is working.

I can select all 4 gears and reverse while the engine is off.

If I start the car...
First and reverse grind if I try to put it in gear with the clutch down, 2nd, 3rd and 4th don't grind but I can't select them, (however the car moves slowly forward as I pull the gear lever towards them as if something is connecting.

I've tightened the bolt at the end of the clutch cable loads, it doesn't seem to make any difference.

The clutch looks like it moves apart???

 

[Thomas Vaughan]

 

[bugsymike]

It may sound like a bodge, but if clutch centre plate is rusted to flywheel which is most likely , try spraying WD40 onto centre plate friction material area. With clutch pedal held down, very gentle prising may release but must be gentle or you will damage the friction plate. I prefer the second option but still with WD40.
Another trick is to start in first gear with clutch pedal down and handbrake firmly on.
I have done this in a car show room with one that had been sat for a long time.
Re the WD40 once released a little slipping will soon remove any traces of WD40 with no ill affects.
In the past I have warmed a car up so it will start straight away, then put it in gear, with handbrake off and a clear road, then turned the ignition to start the car and driven off with clutch held down and pulled handbrake on and off at the same time as accelerating and clutch held down.
It usually works, but failing that it is engine or gearbox out with most vehicles.
Once freed a little "slipping" of the clutch soon cleans any residual rust.
By the way the reason it is slightly trying to pull forward is the synchro cones in the gearbox are trying to do their job of matching gear speeds, I wouldn't do that too much as it may damage the synchro brass cones.

 

[PuntoHowTo]

I think looking at that the clutch is stuck/fused to the pressure plate ?

Looks like it moves away from the flywheel but the pressure plate is also bolted to the flywheel so if it is stuck then it’s not going to disengage.

I’d probably listen to Mike above, my only reservation with spraying anything on the clutch is that I had a mk2 Punto with a bad oil seal and the clutch absorbed oil and swelled so I’d be reluctant to put liquids on the clutch, that being said worst case scenario it works and you burn off any excess wd40 slipping the clutch, worst case you have to put a new clutch in which could be a possibility anyway

 

[Thomas Vaughan]

That makes sense! I'll have a go later, and hopefully not end up with a hole through the garage.

 

[bugsymike]

I fully understand Andy's reservation around oil on clutches, however in moderate amounts, WD40 is soon burnt off.
I have even sprayed it on brake discs where a vehicle was going to be left out in rain for several days before use to prevent surface rust forming and within the first mile of use it cleaned up with no detriment.
Gear oil or engine oil is a much nastier stuff to remove from friction material.

 

[Thomas Vaughan]

First gear, clutch down, start engine, lift clutch, worked.

I can now get it into first and reverse,
however I think I've tightened the cable so much now that it doesn't fully engage!

Back under the car I go, to unscrew a nut 1/8 turn at a time.

 

[Thomas Vaughan]

Excuse the colour codes and dumbed down content, but I'm stuck and I don't know if I'm using the correct terminology.

We've touched on this subject already but I still can't get into 1st gear without a grinding noise.
When the clutch pedal is depressed I get a good 1.5mm gap between the clutch (yellow) and the flywheel (green) as it should be.
With the clutch depressed still the clutch (yellow) can be moved freely of flywheel (green) and clutch plate (red).
But with the engine running and clutch depressed the clutch(yellow) spins, hence crunchy gear selection.
I've hammered, WD40d, and blown crap out with the compressor, I can fit a metal ruler between the clutch (yellow) and clutch plate (red) and move it around freely all around so nothing is binding, but evidently there is still enough friction between the two to keep the gearbox turning.

A little help, I've tried thenabove suggestions.

 

[bugsymike]

Excuse the colour codes and dumbed down content, but I'm stuck and I don't know if I'm using the correct terminology.

We've touched on this subject already but I still can't get into 1st gear without a grinding noise.
When the clutch pedal is depressed I get a good 1.5mm gap between the clutch (yellow) and the flywheel (green) as it should be.
With the clutch depressed still the clutch (yellow) can be moved freely of flywheel (green) and clutch plate (red).
But with the engine running and clutch depressed the clutch(yellow) spins, hence crunchy gear selection.
I've hammered, WD40d, and blown crap out with the compressor, I can fit a metal ruler between the clutch (yellow) and clutch plate (red) and move it around freely all around so nothing is binding, but evidently there is still enough friction between the two to keep the gearbox turning.

A little help, I've tried thenabove suggestions.

View attachment 449607

It does look very clean in there as though recently rebuilt.
Any chance the clutch centre plate was fitted facing the wrong way by the previous owner, they are usually marked flywheel side and when offered up it should be obvious, but it wouldn't be the first one.
I notice in your earlier video the centre plate seems to move away from the flywheel in time with the pressure plate as though it is stuck to it rather than separating from pressure plate and flywheel.
It does mean engine out though to rectify

 

[Thomas Vaughan]

I've had the entire car down to nuts and bolts, so it quite possibly could be an error of mine, but I've been very methodical in the rebuild as it my first time. Engine out luckily doesn't take very long. I was thinking myself that it might be something bigger.

My Instagram detailing the rebuild.

 

[PuntoHowTo]

Really obvious one but so common it’s untrue….

Is the clutch the right way round ?

While it might not be making contact with the flywheel any friction between the clutch and the pressure plate will still transfer power to the gearbox and one common reason for this is the clutch being the wrong way round and their being some sort of bias on one side of the clutch that pushes it in contact with either the flywheel or the pressure plate

 

[Thomas Vaughan]

Yeah.....I think I might be pulling the engine! Sounds like I might have put the clutch in backwards then.

The bias on one side explanation makes more sense too, as when the clutch is engaged it slips.

 

[bugsymike]

It does look very clean in there as though recently rebuilt.
Any chance the clutch centre plate was fitted facing the wrong way by the previous owner, they are usually marked flywheel side and when offered up it should be obvious, but it wouldn't be the first one.
I notice in your earlier video the centre plate seems to move away from the flywheel in time with the pressure plate as though it is stuck to it rather than separating from pressure plate and flywheel.
It does mean engine out though to rectify

Yes, it is certainly a possibility.
When I replied to your post at the beginning, you mentioned that it had never been driven since you owned it and I assumed it had been standing but running prior to that
When ever fitting a clutch, I always offer the parts into place before assembly to ensure a good match, the side of the centre plate (part with friction material on) is often more raised up on the side nearest to the gear box, so if fitted incorrectly that raised part can be jammed against the flywheel bolts. I can't read German, but often if not written in English "flywheel side" on centre plate it is often written in German. The other thing I do is ensure centre plate is correctly lubricated and fits and slides well on gearbox splines, a common problem is spline size wrong also, so people try unsuccessfully to force the gearbox and engine to meet, some foolishly using long nuts and bolts to "wind" the two parts together!
I say "use love and kindness not brute force and ignorance", but I have seen it, usually causing broken gearbox lugs etc.
However centre plate around the wrong way is a common fault I have come across, both in the motor trade and with DIY so you are not the first, assuming that is the problem.

 

[Thomas Vaughan]

I think I put the clutch in backwards?

Confirm?

 

[PuntoHowTo]

I think I put the clutch in backwards?

Confirm?


View attachment 449658View attachment 449659View attachment 449660

At least you got to the bottom of it fairly quickly, if it’s not significantly damaged turn it round and put it back in,

You live and you learn and I’ve seen professional mechanics do exactly this so you’re in good company

 

[Thomas Vaughan]

It's a little worn om the end of the shaft, I may as well buy and fit a new one as it's out.

Thank you all for your help!

I'm sure it won't be the last time!!

 

[Thomas Vaughan]

Anyone got the torque settings for the bolts mounting the engine to the transmission?
Aluminium has a habit of 5hitting itself whenever I show it a spanner.

 

[bugsymike]

Anyone got the torque settings for the bolts mounting the engine to the transmission?
Aluminium has a habit of 5hitting itself whenever I show it a spanner.

View attachment 449831

If you finish tightening using a ring spanner you are unlikely to overtighten it, unless you are King Kong
Spanner size is usually correct for length of spanner under normal tightening.
I have never tightened bellhousing's using a torque wrench in over 50 years