General Bravo ergonomics

[alfabarry]

I've been driving a Bravo 120 mjet dynamic for the last week. The car is a real surprise to me. Not only does it feel solid and well screwed together, it has a ride quality I've never before encountered in anything from Italy: it's more like a French car for it's absorbancy. Which is, in my book, A Good Thing.

It's also a handsome car. And the mjet is very refined for a diesel. Far better than our Audi PDI turbodiesel in this regard (although not quite as frugal!)

The motoring press tends to bang on about the allegedly low rent materials used in the Bravo. They certainly don't bother me (and I'm used to the "industry leading" quality of an Audi cabin.. all this really means is unnecessarily strong plastics with over-engineered grab handles and glovebox lid....). But sadly I'm not totally sold on Bravo: the reason for this lies in driver comfort. I cannot buy a car which forces me to suffer ankle and leg ache as a result of:
1. Cramped footwell with no space to put my size 10 next to the clutch pedal (as I can in an Alfa 156)
2. No footrest to compensate for (1), (as provided in my Panda!)
3. Insufficient underthigh support for my 6ft frame, even when seat at highest setting ....which is still not high enough for my 5ft wife to see where the car begins and ends.

I can't be alone in this: why has Fiat, having built possibly their highest quality car ever and got so much right, made such basic ergonomic mistakes? Or is this just another example of a lazy right hand drive conversion? The seats themselves are really not bad: all that is needed to rectify a comfort problem which presently makes it impossible for me to buy a Bravo is a seat base tilt control and a clutch rest.

 

[thepottleflump]

That's interesting to hear. I was thinking about a new Bravo, I currently have a 156 and that's a very comfortable car. The Bravo has been critised for having an uncomfortable driving position which would seems to be a serious problem on a car. Hmmm time for a test drive I think

 

[ChrisUK]

I think its more to do with the Italian Driver (short legs, long arms). But I get your point I picked this up on my test drive.

As you I was very impressed with the car (was a 150 T-jet Dynamic) brilliant build, very nice refined drive but after the test drive my right leg ache'd for a while. At least its got telescopic steering column like the GP.

 

[T14086]

I mentioned this to friend of mine (drives around 1000miles/week) who is 6ft 2" & well lets just say 'large' & he has had no problems....infact prefers it to his BMW.

I have done a few long journeys in the bravo & not noticed anything but I always have my right foot hovering over clutch pedal,just a 'habit' I have always done.

 

[Hellcat]

Just hook my feet under the pedals. Perfectly comfy there plus the cruise control takes out a lot of the effort on a long run.

 

[Bru]

I have the same car as which alfabarry has been driving and find the car is excellent and the driving possition in general is ok.
I'm 5' 7" and the only real gripe is the lack of a clutch foot rest and an achy right foot/ankle after a couple of hours driving.

 

[ChrisUK]

I'm 5' 7" and the only real gripe is the lack of a clutch foot rest and an achy right foot/ankle after a couple of hours driving.

Exactly what I get but effected me after an hour (was fast country test driving though ).

I don't even get this in my Mk2b Punto Sporting .

 

[bluebravo]

I have the same car as which alfabarry has been driving and find the car is excellent and the driving position in general is ok.
I'm 5' 7" and the only real gripe is the lack of a clutch foot rest and an achy right foot/ankle after a couple of hours driving.

There was a discussion about this a little while ago about the lack of a footrest, they apparently have them on left hand drive but not on right side drive

http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/8742/116vd9.jpg

 

[ChrisUK]

Another Half arsed Italian afterthought RHD conversion? :bang:

 

[georgee]

There was a discussion about this a little while ago about the lack of a footrest, they apparently have them on left hand drive but not on right side drive

http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/8742/116vd9.jpg

Yes,we have a very comfortable footrest on the left hand drive versions.

Georgee

 

[T14086]

Yes,we have a very comfortable footrest on the left hand drive versions.

Georgee

LOL....rub it in Georgee

 

[klemster]

I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure the stilo didn't have a footrest either..have to have a look in my dads m/w in awhile. Hes collecting his new Bravo next week..but he nearly falls into the Italian Driver (short legs, long arms) category.

 

[JFL]

I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure the stilo didn't have a footrest either..(short legs, long arms) category.

it doesnt, but it doesnt bother me

(some people often forget that most fords dont either ).

i usually drive with my leg upright anyway moving it about and tapping it to the beat of the music

 

[alfabarry]

Just hook my feet under the pedals. Perfectly comfy there plus the cruise control takes out a lot of the effort on a long run.

I tried this, but it's not that safe. I think it depends on how wide your feet are... in my case I must first pull my leg back before I can lift it onto the pedal: if the gap between clutch pedal & centre console was literally one cm wider I could lift my foot up and down alongside the pedal.

I agree that the cruise control is great on the motorway.. but this is of little use in more intricate cross country or urban trips. My ankles go with ChrisUK: a very half-arsed RHD conversion...

This is a PITA because the car appeals to me in almost every other regard.

 

[JFL]

a very half-arsed RHD conversion...

you can say this about any rcar converted to right hand drive.

fords also have this matter as well

and then theres the postioning of such things as the handbrake, certain buttons on the center console or transimision tunnel

 

[ChrisUK]

you can say this about any rcar converted to right hand drive.

fords also have this matter as well

and then theres the postioning of such things as the handbrake, certain buttons on the center console or transimision tunnel

Well this is particularly bad even for fiat. How do they forget the foot rest ffs.... The Grande Punto had one! :devil:

 

[alfabarry]

you can say this about any rcar converted to right hand drive.l

I beg to differ. While there is usually some loss of comfort in most conversions, Fiat's own conversion of the much smaller Panda shows how discomfort can be minimised by providing a raised clutch rest to compensate for a narrow footwell. Alternatively, Fiat/Alfa's conversion of the Alfa 156 (similar size to Bravo) shows how you can have a footwell/pedal spacing wide enough to mean that a footrest, while nice to have, isn't essential to avoid discomfort. And the newer 159 shows that the company is capable of providing a near perfect RHD driving position and pedal layout.

The Bravo's problem is that it has neither a big enough gap for larger feet to clear the clutch pedal on the left OR a footrest to compensate for that. These days most cars manage to get one of these right, no matter where they are engineered. The last car I sat in that shared the Bravo's double whammy was an old-model Mazda 2.

I do have slightly wider than average feet. But so do lots of people. Perhaps the problem is that Southern Europeans (like Japanese) have generally narrower feet that Anglo-Saxons: this is why Italian walking boots generally hurt my feet and might also be why people with narrower feet can't see that there is a serious comfort issue with the Bravo. This presumably includes the authors of the Bravo RHD conversion.

 

[Luke M]

possibly something to do with the uk law of 50mm gap between pedals. unless thats the same on the continent.

 

[Deckchair5]

I couldn't stand having nowhere to put your left foot on the Stilo and, as people say, it makes clutch work awkward and even a little dangerous to put your foot underneath the clutch pedal every time. It depend on your size and size of feet but being used to tons of room on the older Bravo it was something i had to sort out early on the Stilo

So I simply took the side panel off and chopped the offending front section. It can't be seen and now there's acres of space for my clutch foot.


Ah! What a relief. Loads of room now and very comfortable in the Stilo. It altered the whole driving comfort experience for me

The mistake Fiat made was to keep the same designed panel for a lh drive and expect it to still be ok on a rh drive car. The cure would have been a simple panel design mod

Maybe the same can be done with the Bravo. If you're reluctant to chop the panel then you could buy a spare side panel, chop and fit that and retain the original for when you resell your car. Although I think the lack of rest space is enough to put a seasoned and choosy driver off buying a Bravo rather than the other way around. Uncomfortable driving posiiton matters a hell of a lot to large annual mileage drivers

 

[alfabarry]

So I simply took the side panel off and chopped the offending front section. It can't be seen and now there's acres of space for my clutch foot.

Ingenious. And worth checking out for the Bravo.

Uncomfortable driving posiiton matters a hell of a lot to large annual mileage drivers

Very true: and even the above solution would leave a lack of under-thigh support which impacts on my right/throttle leg: this is however more "livable with" than the clutch problem.

I still think that these are problems resulting from too little thought at the rhd design stage: my excellent Alfa 156 driving position and surprisingly comfortable Panda are a standing rebuke to the otherwise superior quality Bravo.