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[oldpunk]

Ok now stick with me or shoot me down, The MAP sensor has a reading range of 1.9 to 4.75 volts that relates to the turbo boost at manifold, it triggers the limp mode at 4.5V constant to 4.75V volt peak .5 sec. This is on a 2008 1.3 multijet diesel. Now the waste gate opens on my engine when the MAP reads 3.5V. So my thinkin is I have from 3.5V to say 4.4V constant reading on the MAP before limp mode kicks it. I have boost from the turbo that is not being used due to the waste gate opening when MAP reads 3.5V, Could I tweek to turbo bypass actuator to open at a higher boost just short of limp wrist mode cuttin in.

 

[Shadeyman]

Ok now stick with me or shoot me down, The MAP sensor has a reading range of 1.9 to 4.75 volts that relates to the turbo boost at manifold, it triggers the limp mode at 4.5V constant to 4.75V volt peak .5 sec. This is on a 2008 1.3 multijet diesel. Now the waste gate opens on my engine when the MAP reads 3.5V. So my thinkin is I have from 3.5V to say 4.4V constant reading on the MAP before limp mode kicks it. I have boost from the turbo that is not being used due to the waste gate opening when MAP reads 3.5V, Could I tweek to turbo bypass actuator to open at a higher boost just short of limp wrist mode cuttin in.

The engine ECU contains a file that has many control MAPs in it that control all aspects of the engine. One of those MAPs will decide what to do with the output from the MAP sensor. Find yourself a good remapper and you can take control of what happens when the MAP sensors output is 3.5v and above.

On a side note I'm sure the 2008 1.3 multijet diesel uses a VGT(Variable Geometry Turbo) so has no waste gate.

 

[oldpunk]

The engine ECU contains a file that has many control MAPs in it that control all aspects of the engine. One of those MAPs will decide what to do with the output from the MAP sensor. Find yourself a good remapper and you can take control of what happens when the MAP sensors output is 3.5v and above.

On a side note I'm sure the 2008 1.3 multijet diesel uses a VGT(Variable Geometry Turbo) so has no waste gate.

Mine has a wastegate, It was stuck giving a 4.5volt MAP reading at which point the limp mode kicks in. Dow I didn't realise a manual boost controller fitted to the actuator as it does, for £20 on ebay I'll fit one and check out the MAP reading and limp mode kick in. Re map is somthing I'll consider.:slayer:

 

[Shadeyman]

Mine has a wastegate, It was stuck giving a 4.5volt MAP reading at which point the limp mode kicks in. Dow I didn't realise a manual boost controller fitted to the actuator as it does, for £20 on ebay I'll fit one and check out the MAP reading and limp mode kick in. Re map is somthing I'll consider.:slayer:

I'd be interested in any pics of the turbo you may have, upload them.

 

[oldpunk]

I'd be interested in any pics of the turbo you may have, upload them.

Its real ickle I mean ickle, My van in a 16v 2008 multijet, I think one of the first. I'll drop a pic. Got to strip off the air box so you can see it. Spools from about 1500 revs out at 5500. Bloody flyin since I unblocked where the EGR had coked up the manifold neck. The waste gate actuator had stuck but freed it up with an improvised tool with turbo in situ. result. I could see takin the thing off to be an all dayer.:slayer:

 

[oldpunk]

I'd be interested in any pics of the turbo you may have, upload them.

Your right its a variable vane type, I saw the actuator and thought it was a waste gate type.

 

[Shadeyman]

Your right its a variable vane type, I saw the actuator and thought it was a waste gate type.

Are you sure because waste gated turbos seem to be making a come back?

Most diesels do use VGT but some of the more modern engines don't.

 

[fraguzz]

ok ... what car is it?

what is the standard hp?

the fixed geometri is used on the 70-75hp models. its a kkk kp35 and can run 1,5all day.! if you can get it to hit that target every time.. other vice 1.45bars of boost..
A ajustment of the... hold on.. i have made a video about this mod on this engine on youtube..



oh and if you have the higher power engines they use the kkk BV35 vgt.


i my self run a larger garrett VGT to 1.7bars of boost. after i fitted a boost cut defender.

 

[oldpunk]

Mines the 75hp sx Damn, I thoght SX meant 95HP. Looks like I have the wastgate KKK type. Let the power gains begin. Let push the ickle blower to its max.

 

[Shadeyman]

ok ... what car is it?

what is the standard hp?

Its tells you at the end of the video

Fiat Panda 1.3

75bhp @ 4000rpm

 

[fraguzz]

thanks Shadeyman (said out loud like superman) look at the guy doing the job... whats his NICK name.. then look at my user name... lol

 

[loveshandbags]

Your right its a variable vane type, I saw the actuator and thought it was a waste gate type.

Turbos on the MJ are IHI fixed gerometry. On some 'write ups' they used the word 'variable' incorrectly. The Variable Vane turbos are not on 'Fiat' models but are on Skoda's, Porsche's, etc. They're a bit problematic with the vanes occasionally sticking.

ok ... what car is it?

what is the standard hp?

the fixed geometri is used on the 70-75hp models. its a kkk kp35 and can run 1,5all day.! if you can get it to hit that target every time.. other vice 1.45bars of boost..
A ajustment of the... hold on.. i have made a video about this mod on this engine on youtube..
HDI Boostcontroler guide shown on FIAT MULTIJET - YouTube

oh and if you have the higher power engines they use the kkk BV35 vgt.

i my self run a larger garrett VGT to 1.7bars of boost. after i fitted a boost cut defender.

IHI can't run 1.5 bar all day long. Depending on the model the max it could run is 1.2 bar. If you exceed that figure the difference in power is very little and the life of the turbo is shortened. Plus it would be important to ensure that you have the C514R gearbox on the 75bhp model off the 95bhp model which has had it's torque rated limited raised from 150Nm to 190Nm to cope with the increase in power.

 

[fraguzz]

Oh im sorry i have to change my gearbox then.. because i have been running far more than 145nm in my panda for Along time now.. in the last ½year 100-140nm+(as in 240nm+)

and i have to go out and scrape the KKK kp35 off my standard turbo i pulled off some 2years back.. oh and get it to fail after i have for 3years been running it to 1,45bars of boost...

and since fiat does not drive with vgt i have to change the one on my fiat marea 110hp JTD(uses a garrett GT1749V) .. again to a fixed geometri turbo.. and tell fiat FPT to contact KKK to stop putting the darn acuvator on the wrong place and tell them to start fitting wastegates again.
http://www.turbo-mechanika.com/demo/en/bv35-kkk/

im sorry ... you need to get your facts right... (and yes they rate the gearbox on FPT page to the torqe figure the engine connected to it makes.. what luck!

Turbos on the MJ are IHI fixed gerometry. On some 'write ups' they used the word 'variable' incorrectly. The Variable Vane turbos are not on 'Fiat' models but are on Skoda's, Porsche's, etc. They're a bit problematic with the vanes occasionally sticking.



IHI can't run 1.5 bar all day long. Depending on the model the max it could run is 1.2 bar. If you exceed that figure the difference in power is very little and the life of the turbo is shortened. Plus it would be important to ensure that you have the C514R gearbox on the 75bhp model off the 95bhp model which has had it's torque rated limited raised from 150Nm to 190Nm to cope with the increase in power.

 

[loveshandbags]

Oh im sorry i have to change my gearbox then.. because i have been running far more than 145nm in my panda for Along time now.. in the last ½year 100-140nm+(as in 240nm+)

and i have to go out and scrape the KKK kp35 off my standard turbo i pulled off some 2years back.. oh and get it to fail after i have for 3years been running it to 1,45bars of boost...

and since fiat does not drive with vgt i have to change the one on my fiat marea 110hp JTD(uses a garrett GT1749V) .. again to a fixed geometri turbo.. and tell fiat FPT to contact KKK to stop putting the darn acuvator on the wrong place and tell them to start fitting wastegates again.
http://www.turbo-mechanika.com/demo/en/bv35-kkk/

im sorry ... you need to get your facts right... (and yes they rate the gearbox on FPT page to the torqe figure the engine connected to it makes.. what luck!

So on the basis that you've being running 240Nm on the Panda C514 gearbox which is rated at 150Nm for the last 6 months and you've had no problems to-date that my I should get my facts right.

Many wouldn't agree with you.
https://www.fiatforum.com/500/139133-re-mapping-1-3-multijet.html
https://www.fiatforum.com/panda/290031-multijet-clutch.html

If you had fitted the C510 (201Nm) off the A500 (that's if it fits) or got a hold of a C514R (190Nm) with an uprated clutch then it might be a different story.

 

[fraguzz]

1nd link: same isue as below.. and another user texting this:
""I'm sure torque is limited in the 500 the same way it is in the Panda. Something to do with the gearbox>> I'm sure I heard.<<""

2nd link: yes the clutch is crap standard! will do .. what 170-180nm (have had standard,3 pad cintermetal, and now a reinforced kevlar clutch. nothing to do with the gearbox(yes the one you say is stronger)


this is along time ago i checked about gearboxes and the gear selector is different on the c510.. i recall is a punto 1,9 box? and the c514R is the 95hp and 105hp gearbox and if i remember correctly the punto 1,3 70hp model has a good box also it is rated at 190 or 170nm i think.

the size if different in the panda and 500 because of the engine bay being smaller..(they say)

 

[loveshandbags]

1nd link: same isue as below.. and another user texting this:
""I'm sure torque is limited in the 500 the same way it is in the Panda. Something to do with the gearbox>> I'm sure I heard.<<""

2nd link: yes the clutch is crap standard! will do .. what 170-180nm (have had standard,3 pad cintermetal, and now a reinforced kevlar clutch. nothing to do with the gearbox(yes the one you say is stronger)

this is along time ago i checked about gearboxes and the gear selector is different on the c510.. i recall is a punto 1,9 box? and the c514R is the 95hp and 105hp gearbox and if i remember correctly the punto 1,3 70hp model has a good box also it is rated at 190 or 170nm i think.

the size if different in the panda and 500 because of the engine bay being smaller..(they say)

This pdf document gives the rated torque figures for these gearboxs with some slight differences to previously quoted figures.
C514 147 Nm 5-6 speed
C510 206 Nm 5 speed
M32 320 Nm

From memory the quoted figure for the C514R was 190Nm and it was possibly developed by Fiat (re-enforced C514 hence the R) since the C510 wouldn't fit into the Panda / 500 because of space (as you have already highlighted). This gearbox is being used in the newer models like the MJ II - the 95bhp and possibly the newer Twin Air with 105hp (103bhp).

The Punto seems to take the C510 so that's rated for 190Nm. It is also a heavier gearbox than the C514 and is labelled 'heavy duty'.

Clutch is 'weak' on the MJ I in the 500/Panda so that probably 'saves' the gearbox. Uprating it could spell trouble.

The C510 is used in the A500 and AFAIK it originally came from the Alfa 147. My OH had a 147 1.6 petrol and the gearbox felt very similar to the one in the A500. Can't comment on the Punto.

M32 is from GM and it is probably the one gearbox where it does not have the 'tolerance' in relation to its quoted ratings.

C510 gearbox seems to be able to take quite a bit of abuse and the esseesse model pushs out 230Nm-238Nm which is beyond the 206Nm quoted figure (some sites quote 201Nm).

Your figure of 170-180Nm for the C514 is possibly OK.

 

[fraguzz]

Ah a joy to read! not just the normal forum talk >your ugly, no you are< LOL

It just hit me btw! im not running 240nm+ at 1500rpm its abit later in the rpm range! so that could be why it can take some more power!

and your right in saying that the weak clutch is a type of limiter.. and one would be alot safer on a 514R..

does that pdf contain gear ratios.. would like to find either a higher speed final drive or a 6 speed box with higher speed 6 gear..


i see you have done some homework

This pdf document gives the rated torque figures for these gearboxs with some slight differences to previously quoted figures.
C514 147 Nm 5-6 speed
C510 206 Nm 5 speed
M32 320 Nm

From memory the quoted figure for the C514R was 190Nm and it was possibly developed by Fiat (re-enforced C514 hence the R) since the C510 wouldn't fit into the Panda / 500 because of space (as you have already highlighted). This gearbox is being used in the newer models like the MJ II - the 95bhp and possibly the newer Twin Air with 105hp (103bhp).

The Punto seems to take the C510 so that's rated for 190Nm. It is also a heavier gearbox than the C514 and is labelled 'heavy duty'.

Clutch is 'weak' on the MJ I in the 500/Panda so that probably 'saves' the gearbox. Uprating it could spell trouble.

The C510 is used in the A500 and AFAIK it originally came from the Alfa 147. My OH had a 147 1.6 petrol and the gearbox felt very similar to the one in the A500. Can't comment on the Punto.

M32 is from GM and it is probably the one gearbox where it does not have the 'tolerance' in relation to its quoted ratings.

C510 gearbox seems to be able to take quite a bit of abuse and the esseesse model pushs out 230Nm-238Nm which is beyond the 206Nm quoted figure (some sites quote 201Nm).

Your figure of 170-180Nm for the C514 is possibly OK.

 

[scoop987]

This pdf document gives the rated torque figures for these gearboxs with some slight differences to previously quoted figures.
C514 147 Nm 5-6 speed
C510 206 Nm 5 speed
M32 320 Nm

From memory the quoted figure for the C514R was 190Nm and it was possibly developed by Fiat (re-enforced C514 hence the R) since the C510 wouldn't fit into the Panda / 500 because of space (as you have already highlighted). This gearbox is being used in the newer models like the MJ II - the 95bhp and possibly the newer Twin Air with 105hp (103bhp).

The Punto seems to take the C510 so that's rated for 190Nm. It is also a heavier gearbox than the C514 and is labelled 'heavy duty'.

Clutch is 'weak' on the MJ I in the 500/Panda so that probably 'saves' the gearbox. Uprating it could spell trouble.

The C510 is used in the A500 and AFAIK it originally came from the Alfa 147. My OH had a 147 1.6 petrol and the gearbox felt very similar to the one in the A500. Can't comment on the Punto.

M32 is from GM and it is probably the one gearbox where it does not have the 'tolerance' in relation to its quoted ratings.

C510 gearbox seems to be able to take quite a bit of abuse and the esseesse model pushs out 230Nm-238Nm which is beyond the 206Nm quoted figure (some sites quote 201Nm).

Your figure of 170-180Nm for the C514 is possibly OK.

I think you will find that the M32 'box is actually a Renault 'box, not GM. GM and Fiat buy them in.

 

[loveshandbags]

I think you will find that the M32 'box is actually a Renault 'box, not GM. GM and Fiat buy them in.

Do you have anything to back that up ?

My understanding is that the M32 gearbox was developed between Fiat/GM when they were in partnership. This was done alongside the MJ engines e.g. the Saab 9-3, Astra & the Vectra use the same 1.9 8v/16v engines. Although given the some of the 'comments' on the M32 gearbox it's now referred to a GM gearbox.

If you look at this 'out-of-date' pdf (on p136 of 210) the M32 gearbox is listed as being used by GP, Croma II, 159 & Brera. Going through the Renault models none of them use the M32 gearbox. So if it's a Renault box why aren't there any Renault cars using the gearbox ?

Looking at the spec sheet with Opel on the M32 the identifier either mentions Opel or Fiat. No mention of Renault.

Also the M32 in my current car feels nothing like a Renault gearbox but that's comparing it to gearboxs in my folks cars 'of old'. They had a Renault 18 and my father-in-law had a rubbish automatic in a Renault 30. I'm hoping that the M32 in the T-jet and the OH's MJ lasts.

 

[loveshandbags]

does that pdf contain gear ratios.. would like to find either a higher speed final drive or a 6 speed box with higher speed 6 gear..

Took these ratios from here...

Multi-jet
3.909
2.158
1.345
0.974
0.766


C514 (6 speed) off the 500 1.4 16V - imagine it's the same for the 100HP
3.545
2.158
1.480
1.121
0.921
0.766

Matches up with a Euro spec sheet on theFiatUSA500

From memory the final drive is the same for both.

The gear ratios in the 5 speed for the 1.2 are different and are noticeably lower in the higher gears. The 5th gear on the MJ is a tall one and the same as the 6 speed.

Get the impression that the C514 5 speed might be a more resilent gearbox than the 6 speed variant which is also used on the 100HP (there have been reports of failures on the AF on the MiTo 95bhp and there is possibly one or 2 on the FF on the 100HP). When Fiat beefed up the C514 it was on the 5 speed. There was initially a 6 speed in the MiTo MJ that had no DPF but it was dropped within a matter of months. Have no information on it.

5 speed is all that you need on a small turbo charged car. The 6 speed is more of a close ratio gearbox for the petrol which needs to rev.