Technical better handling after lowering?

Currently reading:
Technical better handling after lowering?

fraguzz

New member
Joined
Jul 31, 2003
Messages
210
Points
43
Location
Denmark.
hi all

this thread is about what we ca do about the handling other than springs and dampers!

-anti-roll bar
-the anti-roll bar drop-link
-bigger breaks


Im looking into making my anti-roll bar drop link shorter by making it adjustable.. what would this do.. they are tight fit when fitting lower suspension.

Have fitted a top anti roll bar.. not a hole lot of difference.. i think.. (car 1,3mjet panda)

bigger breaks.. want to upgrade my 240mm ventilated front discs to 257mm from the 4x4.. (car 1.3mjet)
any chance the calibers are the same.. they use the same break pads.
 
Last edited:
I can't imagine bigger breaks would help with handling... Might help your concentration I guess, but other than that.

Brakes on the other hand... You'd be better off starting with new, decent rubber.
 
caster .. well was hoping there was a suspension expert on here..

but if its shifted forwared it will "use the dampers more under breaking.. more stability .. but not an expert..

>matthen
im not sure what your saying?
If my car sees a road sign saying race track the breaks fade.. im using rilled+holed sports discs with better pads. alot better but need better! performance is up by around 100%

and are you saying i need new tires.. ?
(that was not what this thread was about, but thanks for sharing but i have good tires)
 
I was... how to put this... making a pun? On the fact that "break" means, to have a rest, whilst "brake" is something that stops the car. I apologise, sincerely.

And good, I hate it when I see modified cars with crap tyres on..
 
Last edited:
Lowering will reduce the centre of gravity, but if certain aspects aren't considered, that's all you've done, you'll soon be able to push the car way past it's grip level without making yourself sick and end up in a ditch, bleeding to death.

Thicker Roll bars will have more torsional strength, thus will help with keeping the body roll in check.
Saying this, they need attaching properly with the correct bushing to hold them to the chassis and the right length droplinks to connect them to the struts/control arm correctly.

A decent damper will help keep the tyre in contact with the road more, reducing the skipping effect over uneven roads, as camber and alignment has already been mentioned, correctly set, it will help keep the tyre "footprint" in contact with the road better, improving grip.
And as also mentioned, the quaility and size of this "footprint" will also have an effect as well.

It goes without saying, if you make it go faster or go faster around corners, it's usually a good idea to make it stop better! But it's not just a matter of bolting massive discs and calipers on the front, brakes need to be balanced, front and rear or you'll pitch the car on it's nose every time you touch the pedal.
They also work within a certain operating temperature, big discs with large pads won't always work well when ploding around town as they may not get the heat in them to work well and more often than not, you'll need to up the wheel size to make them fit.

The down size to all this is that suspension has always been a compromise between handling and comfort, edge one way and lose the other.
With the state of the roads, you'll soon end up with something virtually undrivable on the public road.

With regards to the Panda, it's not a great starting platform as it's dimensions aren't great (tall, narrow and short). Add a heavy(compared to the rest of the car) lump like the MJ up front and the mix isn't great.

Perhaps consider a car better suited to what you require, or to moderately sharpen up what you have try new dampers, polybushing the wishbones and ARB D bushes, a new set of droplinks and getting a proper wheel alignment done and adjusted correctly.
 
what a great read thanks!

about the change of car.. i would not be in here if i had the money to buy something else. ;-)

my wheels is already 16" no i dont want a message saying 15" is better.. it would look crap on my car, its not a track day car but it does need better handling!
and there is already loads on springs and dampers on this forum.

Ok what does the roll bar in front change when we lower the car and the drop link is harder to get into place.. more tension.. but isent that a good thing.. im asking because im not in to all this and want to learn..

any good books on the subject?


Lowering will reduce the centre of gravity, but if certain aspects aren't considered, that's all you've done, you'll soon be able to push the car way past it's grip level without making yourself sick and end up in a ditch, bleeding to death.

Thicker Roll bars will have more torsional strength, thus will help with keeping the body roll in check.
Saying this, they need attaching properly with the correct bushing to hold them to the chassis and the right length droplinks to connect them to the struts/control arm correctly.

A decent damper will help keep the tyre in contact with the road more, reducing the skipping effect over uneven roads, as camber and alignment has already been mentioned, correctly set, it will help keep the tyre "footprint" in contact with the road better, improving grip.
And as also mentioned, the quaility and size of this "footprint" will also have an effect as well.

It goes without saying, if you make it go faster or go faster around corners, it's usually a good idea to make it stop better! But it's not just a matter of bolting massive discs and calipers on the front, brakes need to be balanced, front and rear or you'll pitch the car on it's nose every time you touch the pedal.
They also work within a certain operating temperature, big discs with large pads won't always work well when ploding around town as they may not get the heat in them to work well and more often than not, you'll need to up the wheel size to make them fit.

The down size to all this is that suspension has always been a compromise between handling and comfort, edge one way and lose the other.
With the state of the roads, you'll soon end up with something virtually undrivable on the public road.

With regards to the Panda, it's not a great starting platform as it's dimensions aren't great (tall, narrow and short). Add a heavy(compared to the rest of the car) lump like the MJ up front and the mix isn't great.

Perhaps consider a car better suited to what you require, or to moderately sharpen up what you have try new dampers, polybushing the wishbones and ARB D bushes, a new set of droplinks and getting a proper wheel alignment done and adjusted correctly.
 
my wheels is already 16" no i dont want a message saying 15" is better.. !

Hilarious! You want your car to handle better but before you even get some advice you've dismissed part of the advice that people might give.....
 
There is plenty of help on the 'net, search for things like
suspension set up
torsion beam suspension
independent suspension
Wheel alignment, wheel caster, wheel camber, wheel toe in or out.
All of which which will give you a good idea about suspension and how it works.

To make a car handle better, we are talking about corner speed, yes?

To achieve a faster corner speed while maintaining grip there's a few things to think about.
Centre of gravity,
The higher up the weight, the easier it is for this weight to affect the travel of direction, you'll never rid the car of all this weight, but you can move it.
So, lowering maybe the first step, but now you have this weight lower, how does this lower weight effect the car when it shifts? As the body weight will still shifting from one side to another (and bounce back again several times) in a corner.
To counter this, not only have you lowered the weight, but you some how have to restrain it from, a) moving about in the first instance, b) bouncing back and forth in the same corner.
Stiffer Anti Roll Bars will help with a and b.
Stiffer springs will also help with b.

How the tyres contact the road.
This obvious one will be more is better, wider tyres have more contact, but in a bend the cars weight will transfer to the outer edges, effectively loosing contact area, the wheel alignment helps, camber, caster and toe affect how the wheel (therefore tyre) sits and operates.
(FWD cars' rear wheels will generally toe in as they are pulled along and out by the front driven wheels, A NasCar will be set with geometry for always turning left!)
Other items also effect who this works, like wishbone bushing and how some parts flex or move.

So you've got the weight lower, stopped it shifting around and have a nice wide tyre contact.
Now you need to keep the trye in contact with the road.
A tyre skipping or leaving the road is useless, so over rough roads, bumps etc, you need the suspension to return the tyre to the road quickly.
Decent damping is required.
Shocks damp the bounce and disapate the energy, Stopping the suspension rebounding to often or at the wrong frequency.
Common these days is the gas shock. A chamber with oil under gas pressure in which a rod with a valve on the end moves through.
Type and thickness of oil, size of valve, gas pressure and area (for heat disapation) all effect how they work.

Different types of suspension work better than others, independent works well, both front and rear (like the Ford Focus)
Double wishbone is better, but suspension travel is greatly reduced., (like F1)
Torsion beam on the rear (like the Panda has) may be cheap, but it doesn't work well at keeping the tyres in good contact (flat) with the road at speed.
Perhaps my reasoning behind the comment, look for another car!
 
Last edited:
Hilarious! You want your car to handle better but before you even get some advice you've dismissed part of the advice that people might give.....

like i said... im not going to the track.. and i happen to like wheels that dont look like winter tires lol.. so any improvement besides going down to 15"s

i dont dismiss the fact that this car roles better on 15".. lots of prove of that in here.
 
again a brilliant read! thanks alot! :)

and if you must know the next car could be a lancer evo 5-6-8..

but for now i have a quest in getting this car to handle its power better :) i will start reading NOW :)

oh did get some answers back from whiteline.. they said i should send my messurments of my drop links so he could advice me the right once to buy..

i was thinking of getting a torsion roll bar from the 100hp to replace the orginal.. good ider?

and possible a Torsion beam + breaks from the 100hp..




There is plenty of help on the 'net, search for things like
suspension set up
torsion beam suspension
independent suspension
Wheel alignment, wheel caster, wheel camber, wheel toe in or out.
All of which which will give you a good idea about suspension and how it works.

To make a car handle better, we are talking about corner speed, yes?

To achieve a faster corner speed while maintaining grip there's a few things to think about.
Centre of gravity,
The higher up the weight, the easier it is for this weight to affect the travel of direction, you'll never rid the car of all this weight, but you can move it.
So, lowering maybe the first step, but now you have this weight lower, how does this lower weight effect the car when it shifts? As the body weight will still shifting from one side to another (and bounce back again several times) in a corner.
To counter this, not only have you lowered the weight, but you some how have to restrain it from, a) moving about in the first instance, b) bouncing back and forth in the same corner.
Stiffer Anti Roll Bars will help with a and b.
Stiffer springs will also help with b.

How the tyres contact the road.
This obvious one will be more is better, wider tyres have more contact, but in a bend the cars weight will transfer to the outer edges, effectively loosing contact area, the wheel alignment helps, camber, caster and toe affect how the wheel (therefore tyre) sits and operates.
(FWD cars' rear wheels will generally toe in as they are pulled along and out by the front driven wheels, A NasCar will be set with geometry for always turning left!)
Other items also effect who this works, like wishbone bushing and how some parts flex or move.

So you've got the weight lower, stopped it shifting around and have a nice wide tyre contact.
Now you need to keep the trye in contact with the road.
A tyre skipping or leaving the road is useless, so over rough roads, bumps etc, you need the suspension to return the tyre to the road quickly.
Decent damping is required.
Shocks damp the bounce and disapate the energy, Stopping the suspension rebounding to often or at the wrong frequency.
Common these days is the gas shock. A chamber with oil under gas pressure in which a rod with a valve on the end moves through.
Type and thickness of oil, size of valve, gas pressure and area (for heat disapation) all effect how they work.

Different types of suspension work better than others, independent works well, both front and rear (like the Ford Focus)
Double wishbone is better, but suspension travel is greatly reduced., (like F1)
Torsion beam on the rear (like the Panda has) may be cheap, but it doesn't work well at keeping the tyres in good contact (flat) with the road at speed.
Perhaps my reasoning behind the comment, look for another car!
 
I haven't the part numbers to hand, but I'd say the rear beam is the same, whatever model with just different rated springs and shocks fitted between the different models, though it maybe the case the 4x4 is different for obvious reasons.

Again, I'm not sure, I'd guess the 100hp had a stiffer anti roll bar, perhaps checking the bush sizes with a site that sell polybushes may help.

I found this in regards to the rear
https://www.fiatforum.com/panda/198856-100hp-rear-anti-roll-bar.html
Maybe a Ford Ka rear ARB can be fitted??

I made my opinion clear, I think you could spend far too much cash on this and at best, end up with something no better, but probably a lot worse as the starting point of the stock car doesn't lend it's self to massive improvement.

I'd be looking at wishbone bushing, a known weak point, perhaps finding a poly bush replacement and maybe the rear beam bushing, again, a tougher poly bush may result in a tighter feel all round.
A good quality damper (perhaps polybushing the rear shock mounts, another weak point) that has a better construction of valving, damper rod and oil/gas charge.
A look at the front ARB, again the mounting bushing (poly) the droplinks and the bars thickness (100hp bar?), I wouldn't be tempted to shorten the links as it may twist, weaken and damage the stock bar.
 
Back
Top