Technical At least I worked out why my flywheel was juddering...
- Thread starter Ralf S.
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Technical At least I worked out why my flywheel was juddering...
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I think the "judder" was caused by the individual ball-bearings escaping and then jamming/getting pulverised by the clutch plate. A lot of metal swarf in the bottom of the bell-housing..
The friction plate itself only had a few lumps missing out of it. This plate was fitted in January 2016 according to my notes, and has done 93,000 miles. Looking fairly good, and I'm sure the flesh wound would "polish out"...
but I have a new one already, so it'll get swapped.
Ralf S.
The friction plate itself only had a few lumps missing out of it. This plate was fitted in January 2016 according to my notes, and has done 93,000 miles. Looking fairly good, and I'm sure the flesh wound would "polish out"...
but I have a new one already, so it'll get swapped.Ralf S.
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If anyone knoes the torques to put on those flywheel bolts, that would be handy.
I've got an Alfa 145 manual somewhere, so I can get an approximate value, but the real Torques would be handy.
1.9JTD @ 115bhp flavour.
Ralf S.
I've got an Alfa 145 manual somewhere, so I can get an approximate value, but the real Torques would be handy.
1.9JTD @ 115bhp flavour.
Ralf S.
The Stilo eLearn workshop manual for the 1.9 JTD, 115hp, 8 valve engine says:
Bolt pretreated with sealant (Crankshaft side) 14.7 - 21.2 daNm.
I don't know if that means anywhere between 14.7 and 21.2 is OK, or if it means tighten all the bolts in stages, i.e. to 14.7, then to 21.2.
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Bolt pretreated with sealant (Crankshaft side) 14.7 - 21.2 daNm.
I don't know if that means anywhere between 14.7 and 21.2 is OK, or if it means tighten all the bolts in stages, i.e. to 14.7, then to 21.2.
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OP
OP
Yes, they're M12 and look like they're 12.9 grade.. though I didn't examine them for any marks.. They just have that look about them.
I'll use 16 Torques first and see what that feels like. The bolts weren't impossibly tight to undo... just the flywheel wanting to rotate made it a bit tricksy to get them out, rather than how tight they were.
If 16 torques feels "not enough", then I'll squeeze it a bit more. Davren's figures sounds like they have a fair range of tolerance. I've always gone for the middle of a quoted range without any trouble.. (so aboot 18 Torques might be where it's at).
The bolts had a bit of blue locking compound on them... so I've bought some Loctite 243 to stick on there. Hopefully it won't all come undone ..
Ralf S.
Cheers Ralf,Yes, they're M12 and look like they're 12.9 grade.. though I didn't examine them for any marks.. They just have that look about them.
I'll use 16 Torques first and see what that feels like. The bolts weren't impossibly tight to undo... just the flywheel wanting to rotate made it a bit tricksy to get them out, rather than how tight they were.
If 16 torques feels "not enough", then I'll squeeze it a bit more. Davren's figures sounds like they have a fair range of tolerance. I've always gone for the middle of a quoted range without any trouble.. (so aboot 18 Torques might be where it's at).
The bolts had a bit of blue locking compound on them... so I've bought some Loctite 243 to stick on there. Hopefully it won't all come undone ..
Ralf S.
The blue sealant is as much to stop engine oil creeping past the bolts onto the clutch than stop them loosening.
Best wishes
Jack
Fairly sure I did mine to about 18 daNm. Taking them up to 21.2 didn't 'feel' right. There was also the possibility of the engine tipping off of its temporary support if I went any higher.
As Jack says, the blue sealant on the flywheel bolts is to stop oil leaking onto the clutch from the crankshaft. If you're not going to use new bolts, you'll need to clean off all the old sealant then wait for the new sealant to fully dry before refitting the bolts.
I bought the Fiat flywheel locking tool for mine.
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I'm fairly sure I saw some new bolts inside the new clutch kit, when I took it out to check that the flywheel and clutch were the same as the old one... so I'll use those.
To lock the flywheel, I've got a similar dibber-dobber that came as part of the cam-belt locking toolkit. It's supposed to lock the cam sprocket in place.. but it might fit the flywheel well enough too. If that doesn't work out, I've seen a Laser tool that's similar/supposed to fit for aboot £12 so that might be a goer, although the cheapskate in me might wince, since I'm unlikely to ever need it again..
Anyhow, the next job will be to carefully, around all those open pipes and oilways, degrease/clean everything in sight, since I can now sit inside the engine bay and reach all the grime and dusty nooks.
The crankshaft oil seal will be replaced. It appears to be leaking at the leading edge where it joins the sump, rather than around the crankshaft itself.. but it accumulates enough to leave an oily film under the engine, which occasionally gets a mention on the MOT form (or at least it used to, until I fitted a sump cover.. )
The inside of the bell-housing (black oily grime and metal shavings that were once ball bearings) will take a fair bit of degreasing too.. then I'll have to work out how to get the gearbox back in there, since the Younger Mrs S. and the toddler aka The Queen of the Sith are not going to be much help...
Ralf S.
To lock the flywheel, I've got a similar dibber-dobber that came as part of the cam-belt locking toolkit. It's supposed to lock the cam sprocket in place.. but it might fit the flywheel well enough too. If that doesn't work out, I've seen a Laser tool that's similar/supposed to fit for aboot £12 so that might be a goer, although the cheapskate in me might wince, since I'm unlikely to ever need it again..
Anyhow, the next job will be to carefully, around all those open pipes and oilways, degrease/clean everything in sight, since I can now sit inside the engine bay and reach all the grime and dusty nooks.
The crankshaft oil seal will be replaced. It appears to be leaking at the leading edge where it joins the sump, rather than around the crankshaft itself.. but it accumulates enough to leave an oily film under the engine, which occasionally gets a mention on the MOT form (or at least it used to, until I fitted a sump cover..
)The inside of the bell-housing (black oily grime and metal shavings that were once ball bearings) will take a fair bit of degreasing too.. then I'll have to work out how to get the gearbox back in there, since the Younger Mrs S. and the toddler aka The Queen of the Sith are not going to be much help...
Ralf S.
I'm fairly sure I saw some new bolts inside the new clutch kit, when I took it out to check that the flywheel and clutch were the same as the old one... so I'll use those.
Bolts included with the clutch kit are likely to be M7 RIBE bolts for the clutch cover.
If there's oily grime in the bell housing, it's likely to be the gearbox oil seal leaking. Put a screw into the old seal to pull it out. I found a piece of plastic plumbing pipe, the exact size to hammer the new seal in with.
I made a wooden frame above the car then lifted the gearbox up with a ratchet strap.
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I'll have a look at the gearbox seal. At the moment the gearbox is loitering around in the corner of the garage. I didn't remove the concentric cylinder or do too much else with it.. but when I clean it all up ready to re-assemble, I'll have a good look at it. I'll have time between cleaning it all up and re-assembling to order a new one, if needed.
The crank seal (really I should say "the frame") is definitely leaking though. It's engine-oily on that bottom-front corner where the seal frame meets the crankcase and the sump.. the crank seal neoprene part seems oil tight. I'm guessing I can just remove the old seal and put the new one in without disturbing the sump, which would be quite a bit more boring.
I'm also going to fit new driveshaft seals, since I found a pair of genooiune Fiat old stock for a tenner or thereabouts, so it would be rude not to. Only the (original) right hand one looks like it's weeping a bit though. The left one is a replacement and looks okay, so I might leave that one and just keep the spare seal.
I might try to find a volunteer to help us lift up the gearbox.. or, maybe I can lower the car on both sides (front wheels off) so that I can lift the gearbox up on a third jack. I do have three jacks, in various places..
Ralf S.
The crank seal (really I should say "the frame") is definitely leaking though. It's engine-oily on that bottom-front corner where the seal frame meets the crankcase and the sump.. the crank seal neoprene part seems oil tight. I'm guessing I can just remove the old seal and put the new one in without disturbing the sump, which would be quite a bit more boring.
I'm also going to fit new driveshaft seals, since I found a pair of genooiune Fiat old stock for a tenner or thereabouts, so it would be rude not to. Only the (original) right hand one looks like it's weeping a bit though. The left one is a replacement and looks okay, so I might leave that one and just keep the spare seal.
I might try to find a volunteer to help us lift up the gearbox..
or, maybe I can lower the car on both sides (front wheels off) so that I can lift the gearbox up on a third jack. I do have three jacks, in various places.. Ralf S.
When I removed the old seal on mine, it pulled some of the sealant out from the sump flange, so I had to lower the sump a little to add some sealant.
The new seal should be supplied with a disposable plastic ring. It ensures the seal is fitted centrally around the crankshaft flange, and protects the lip of the seal while fitting it over the flange.
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The new seal should be supplied with a disposable plastic ring. It ensures the seal is fitted centrally around the crankshaft flange, and protects the lip of the seal while fitting it over the flange.
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As you've done a few miles, have a good wiggle of the first motion shaft, cos if its bearing has too much wear it will knacker out a new seal in no time.
OP
OP
Good tip. I'll go easy with it and cut off any sealant that looks like it wants to pull out.. I'd rather not have to dismantle the sump as well. Worst case, I can remove and refit the sump at the next oil change.
I'll have a look at the bell-housing this weekend. The oil smelt like engine oil rather than gear oil, so I hope the gearbox side is oil tight and the oil is just leaking in from the sump/oil seal face.
Last time I changed the clutch (2016) it was because the concentric cylinder had failed, so it was difficult to tell whether the "oil" was brake fluid plus a bit of the leaking engine oil, or from the gearbox. This time the CSC is okay, so when I remove it, it should be dry behind there. I'll be able to spot/wiggle the gearbox shaft and make sure it's okay.
Ralf S.
OP
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New crankshaft seal fitted. Slightly too much gasket sealer.. but that’s better than slightly not enough, I suppose.
The new flywheel came with bolts, so I used those. I can't remember the torques I used but there was a leaflet in the box that had the value to use for each kit.
I think it was 130 foot pounds plus 50 degrees (why 50? ) which is 176 NM (17.6 DaNs).. so not far off 18DaNs as above. I went with "130 plus until the engine starts moving off the support" which varied between 40 and 60 degrees.. so probably near enough.
Ralf S.
The new flywheel came with bolts, so I used those. I can't remember the torques I used but there was a leaflet in the box that had the value to use for each kit.
I think it was 130 foot pounds plus 50 degrees (why 50?
) which is 176 NM (17.6 DaNs).. so not far off 18DaNs as above. I went with "130 plus until the engine starts moving off the support" which varied between 40 and 60 degrees.. so probably near enough. Ralf S.
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Before I re-fit the starter motor (assuming the gearbox goes on without a bitch-fight/needing half a rugby team front row to help me hoist it in place) does it need any kind of grease or lubrication, while it's off?
Ralf S.
Ralf S.
ruispeed3d
New member
Hey guys,
Sorry for creeping in on your conversation a bit late but i wanted to ask you a couple questions.
In my summer vacations i will do what you did, Ralf, i will change my flywheel along with a complete clutch replacement.
I bought already the Crankshaft seal(it was the same one Davren advised me to buy on a thread that i made some time ago, the Victor Reinz) but i'm struggling to find the proper gearbox seal.
I went around on eper trying to find it, but all i could find was the reference for the driveshaft seals. I went to a local auto parts shop and they also are struggling to find one, they will try to contact the local Fiat dealer to try and help me.
So i wanted to ask, do any of you have both the driveshaft seals and gearbox seal number reference? ou a aftermarket one? Despite the gearbox seal not leaking yet, i think after 300K km(around 186K miles i think) it's safe to assume they will not last much longer, dont you think?
One last question, do you know the torque values for the bolts that tighten the clutch pressure plate to the flywheel?(the M8 Torx) because in the elearn, if i'm reading correctly, the M8 bolts for the plate are set to a tightening torque of about 2,8 daNm wich seems very low since they still need to force the plate to meet with the flywheel(compressing the springs a little).
Thank you in advance, stay safe
Rui Louro
Sorry for creeping in on your conversation a bit late but i wanted to ask you a couple questions.
In my summer vacations i will do what you did, Ralf, i will change my flywheel along with a complete clutch replacement.
I bought already the Crankshaft seal(it was the same one Davren advised me to buy on a thread that i made some time ago, the Victor Reinz) but i'm struggling to find the proper gearbox seal.
I went around on eper trying to find it, but all i could find was the reference for the driveshaft seals. I went to a local auto parts shop and they also are struggling to find one, they will try to contact the local Fiat dealer to try and help me.
So i wanted to ask, do any of you have both the driveshaft seals and gearbox seal number reference? ou a aftermarket one? Despite the gearbox seal not leaking yet, i think after 300K km(around 186K miles i think) it's safe to assume they will not last much longer, dont you think?
One last question, do you know the torque values for the bolts that tighten the clutch pressure plate to the flywheel?(the M8 Torx) because in the elearn, if i'm reading correctly, the M8 bolts for the plate are set to a tightening torque of about 2,8 daNm wich seems very low since they still need to force the plate to meet with the flywheel(compressing the springs a little).
Thank you in advance, stay safe
Rui Louro
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The flywheel kit came with a chart for the flywheel bolts but no other info'. I've done mine up using the Ralf torquometer.. (as tight as felt comfortable).
The bolts have thread lock on them so that's probably "near enough"...
Meanwhile.. my old Alfa 145 Workshop manual has a section for the 1929cc Turbo diesel version, which is probably not very different to the JTD, that says: "Screws fastening pressure plate to engine flywheel - 20-25 Nm / 2.1-2.6 kgm.
I'm not sure if the 145 TD flywheel was dual mass. I suspect not, since the same torques apply to the 1.8 petrol, which is a single-piece flywheel.. so the 2.8daNm setting you have is probably correct.
Ralf S.
The bolts have thread lock on them so that's probably "near enough"...
Meanwhile.. my old Alfa 145 Workshop manual has a section for the 1929cc Turbo diesel version, which is probably not very different to the JTD, that says: "Screws fastening pressure plate to engine flywheel - 20-25 Nm / 2.1-2.6 kgm.
I'm not sure if the 145 TD flywheel was dual mass. I suspect not, since the same torques apply to the 1.8 petrol, which is a single-piece flywheel.. so the 2.8daNm setting you have is probably correct.
Ralf S.
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Fiat Driveshaft Seal Gasket - 71719539
Genooine Fiat parts (x2 in each packet) at a good price on the Bay of Fleas;
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/233410225848?epid=1509701329&hash=item36585566b8:g:2T0AAOSwG4Zd1n2j
These ^ are the ones I bought. The previous "left" one (an OEM part) was still fine... but while the gearbox is out, I decided to replace it anyway. The new Genuine Fiat one fitted much more easily than the OEM one did.
The "right" one was the factory original and still not leaking, but I reluctantly changed that as well. Again, fitted with not much fuss.
If you have a 53mm ring (e.g. socket) of some sort, to drive the seals into place it makes them easier to fit. I used the old seal as the drift, to get them in.. but it's still quite a fiddly job.
Ralf S.
Genooine Fiat parts (x2 in each packet) at a good price on the Bay of Fleas;
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/233410225848?epid=1509701329&hash=item36585566b8:g:2T0AAOSwG4Zd1n2j
These ^ are the ones I bought. The previous "left" one (an OEM part) was still fine... but while the gearbox is out, I decided to replace it anyway. The new Genuine Fiat one fitted much more easily than the OEM one did.
The "right" one was the factory original and still not leaking, but I reluctantly changed that as well. Again, fitted with not much fuss.
If you have a 53mm ring (e.g. socket) of some sort, to drive the seals into place it makes them easier to fit. I used the old seal as the drift, to get them in.. but it's still quite a fiddly job.
Ralf S.
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