General Advice please. fiat 500 105bhp engine noise

[zoe19920]

Hi,
I have a 2016 fiat 500 twinair turbo 105bhp with 26000 miles on the clock. The past couple of months I have been getting a whirring/grinding sound coming from under the bonnet, it sounds like the left side of the engine. It only sometimes makes this sound. It appears to do it after I have driven the car a fair distance so the engine is hot, stopped and switched the engine off, left it for a while e.g. half hour, then restart the engine. It sometimes does it at this point, sometimes only after moving off after these steps. The noise then stops once I have driven a short distance or sometimes just stops. It doesn't make a difference whether the clutch is down or not or whether it's in gear.
I have contacted my garage about it but because I can't always get it to do it, it's very hard to show them and they weren't interested in a video of the noise.

Any help will be appreciated, thank you in advance.

 

[Derbyfella]

A video on here might be useful.

 

[zoe19920]

A video on here might be useful.

 

[jrkitching]

Hello and welcome to the forum.

Thanks for posting the video.

Have you owned the car from new? Knowing it's history could be helpful.

It sounds as if there's metal to metal contact somewhere. Excessive DMF wear causing some momentary contact between the flywheel and bellhousing is my first thought; running clearances are tight and DMF failure is commonly reported, but this is more of an educated guess than a diagnosis.

Some sort of uniair issue is another thought; this is consistent with the noise going away once the oil starts circulating freely and is another commonly reported fault.

Does this noise sound in any way familiar to those who've been unfortunate enough to have experienced either of these problems?

And a question for other 105TA owners, apart from the unusual noise, do they all run this roughly at idle?

 

[Ralf S.]

Could it be the air-conditioning compressor clutch? If you stick the a/c on, when the noise is happening, does it change things?


Ralf S.

 

[The Panda Nut]

That does not sound like the engine its self. I feel it needs to be resolved quickly though. It might be something serious or just something daft but the daft things can develop into expensive repairs. My gut feeling is it could be a clutch release bearing thats starting to give up. The part is nothing much but its effectively a new clutch job if I am correct, as there would be no point in not doing the whole job while a repair was being carried out. It certainly sounds like something thats loose and as such if identifeid it will prevent any major damage. If a clutch release bearing broke up it could cause a lot of damage. Are you in the AA? You could call them out and ask if its safe to drive. It could also be a loose exhaust heat shield. These are not particularly well secured. If caught in time you can effect a simple repair, if not the parts are a vulgar price. This sort of part is one I would consider second hand though. Also consider th alternator bearings. I had a Laguna a few years back that made a not dissimilar noise. Iuse to spray that with a PTFE enriched light oil. A few drops dripped down between the belt and the body of the alternator, and a sray of the other end while mit was running used to silence it for 3 or 4 months. Again if it were this, left unchecked the bearings would eventually fail and be expensive. That car ran for 5 years with a little added lubrication regularly.

 

[The Panda Nut]

And a question for other 105TA owners, apart from the unusual noise, do they all run this roughly at idle?

What do you mean....... That idle sounds as sweet as a nut.
Its a two pot micro engine! Problem with the TA ticking over is its a loud beasty, I know when it stop start works its rather nice when it just shuts...... up. But it sounds sweet. If the TA unit was malfunctioning it wouldnt run or it would misfire and it would sound proper rough. I think it sounds more like a light weight ancilliary thing.

 

[The Panda Nut]

Please ignore previous my key board is typing gibberish in places.

Our older 1.2 Panda made a very similar noise after being driven through floods, I absolutley bathed the air con compressor and alternator in 3 in 1 spray oil spray. After doing (engine runnning) this for several minutes on several occasions it eventually stopped and hasn't returned for some months.

That does not sound like the engine its self. I feel it needs to be resolved quickly though. It might be something serious or just something daft but the daft things can develop into expensive repairs. My gut feeling is it could also possibly be a clutch release bearing thats starting to give up. The part is nothing much but its effectively a new clutch job if I am correct, as there would be no point in not doing the whole job while a repair was being carried out.

It certainly sounds like something thats loose and as such if identifeid it will prevent any major damage. If a clutch release bearing broke up it could cause a lot of damage. Are you in the AA? You could call them out and ask if its safe to drive. It could also be a loose exhaust heat shield. These are not particularly well secured. If caught in time you can effect a simple repair, if not the parts are a vulgar price. This sort of part is one I would consider second hand though.

Also consider th alternator bearings. I had a Laguna a few years back that made a not dissimilar noise. I used to spray that with a PTFE enriched light oil. A few drops dripped down between the belt and the body of the alternator, and a sray of the other end while it was running used to silence it for 3 or 4 months. Again if it were this, left unchecked the bearings would eventually fail and be expensive. That car ran for 5 years with a little added lubrication regularly.

I hope this helps a bit.

 

[zoe19920]

Thank you for all of your replies. Next time it does it I will try putting the air con on.
My gut is it's the engine because with the bonnet open it sounds like it's that area.
I tried my car again tonight after getting home from work (45min drive with traffic). The car was quiet, I turned it off and restarted and pulled away all nice and quiet. I then turned the engine off and left it for almost an hour, started it up again. All fine, pulled to the top of my driveway and as I rolled it back down (clutch down, coasting downhill) it started the noise. This then stopped again as I pulled away up the driveway, and started again as I rolled back down. This happened a couple times. The final time it started at the top of the driveway before rolling back down. The noise then stopped on it's own while sat still for around 5 mins on idle.

 

[Goudrons]

That sounds like something on the aux belt scraping.

Maybe a bearing in the alternator, air con pump or idler (is the water pump driven by the belt?) is complaining when the belt is under load, which is why it's only noisy at certain times, like soon after start up when the alternator is trying to put power back in the battery.

Try starting the engine again and when it's quiet, load up the belt.
First turn the air con on, a see if that makes a difference, then by turn on all the lights (including fog lights) and heated rear screen.

See if turning up the load on the belt makes it noisy.

 

[zoe19920]

That sounds like something on the aux belt scraping.

Maybe a bearing in the alternator, air con pump or idler (is the water pump driven by the belt?) is complaining when the belt is under load, which is why it's only noisy at certain times, like soon after start up when the alternator is trying to put power back in the battery.

Try starting the engine again and when it's quiet, load up the belt.
First turn the air con on, a see if that makes a difference, then by turn on all the lights (including fog lights) and heated rear screen.

See if turning up the load on the belt makes it noisy.

Thank you for your reply I think you may be on to something. I tried your suggestion when I got home from work and it was quiet. It didn't make the noise with everything going but as soon as I turned the air con off the noise started for a short time.

 

[zoe19920]

I have just tried it again, this time the noise started when turning the air con on. After I turned the aircon off the noise continued until I gave the car a few revs (still stationary) and the noise stopped. O tried this three times and it did it every time

 

[The Panda Nut]

Well that narrows it down a bit, but its not certain its air con, could still be the alternato or even the water pump, though I think the latter less likely. The drive belt drives both things so air con will affect belt tension and thus affect alternator. There are also tensioner idler wheels to consider. These are just rollers put in the system to make the belt go where it should. and hold tension. Im still in the spray it with lube camp as step 1. Then check the auxilliary drive belt is in good condition and correctly tensioned. If this doesnt change things remove said belt and try spinning all teh tensioners the waterpump air con and alternator adn see of its obvious which it teh cause. I priced up an air con compressor for my panda and the part can be sourced from eBay new for c£60. I believe this is the same part. The original part maker of this bit is Denso, or Hitachi believe it or not. Alternators are available for about £140 from shop4 parts and the belt is about £35 labout to change might be at worst 3 hours so its not too terrible. Spray oil worked for me. If you do try this try and avoid spraying the belt its self as it will encourage it to slip, at least in the short term.

 

[zoe19920]

Well that narrows it down a bit, but its not certain its air con, could still be the alternato or even the water pump, though I think the latter less likely. The drive belt drives both things so air con will affect belt tension and thus affect alternator. There are also tensioner idler wheels to consider. These are just rollers put in the system to make the belt go where it should. and hold tension. Im still in the spray it with lube camp as step 1. Then check the auxilliary drive belt is in good condition and correctly tensioned. If this doesnt change things remove said belt and try spinning all teh tensioners the waterpump air con and alternator adn see of its obvious which it teh cause. I priced up an air con compressor for my panda and the part can be sourced from eBay new for c£60. I believe this is the same part. The original part maker of this bit is Denso, or Hitachi believe it or not. Alternators are available for about £140 from shop4 parts and the belt is about £35 labout to change might be at worst 3 hours so its not too terrible. Spray oil worked for me. If you do try this try and avoid spraying the belt its self as it will encourage it to slip, at least in the short term.

Thank you for all of your help. I was thinking it was going to be something that will cost £1000+ so fingers crossed it's one of the cheaper things you have suggested. It is the right area for where the sound is coming from and would make sense. My dad has ramps etc so when he is free we will both take the wheel off and check all the tensioners etc and lubricate. Fingers crossed this either sorts the issue or we find the exact part that needs replacing.

 

[John202020]

I'd say it's unlikely to be the ac compressor? In almost 40 years of driving a car with ac the only ever failure was a seized compressor (Honda doing 70mph ) rather than bearing ?

 

[jrkitching]

It's not easy diagnosing a fault like this by listening to a phone recording. There are some good ideas in this thread but basically we're all guessing. This really should be looked at by a competent garage that's familiar with this type of car.

There are some issues specific to the TA engine that can cause significant, expensive collateral damage if not attended to promptly (DMF, Uniair module, Turbo) and these should be ruled out before continuing to use the car.

 

[The Panda Nut]

I'd say it's unlikely to be the ac compressor? In almost 40 years of driving a car with ac the only ever failure was a seized compressor (Honda doing 70mph ) rather than bearing ?

I concur. The more I think the more it sounds like our Panda did. I presume it was alternator as its currently quiet. On the Panda 169 69HP the alternator is hard to remove. I dont knoe if the 500 is any easier but I doubt it so hopefully it will respond to lubrication.

 

[Goudrons]

As JR suggests, it's time to take it in and have someone look at it.

My next suggestion might be difficult as I would suggest lifting the car, removing the front right wheel and wheel arch liner to get a closer look at the aux belt, tensioner, alternator, AC pump and all the pulleys.

Maybe even remove the belt and run the engine up to confirm you're on the right track.

These is one other concern and that's the timing chain.
If they lose some tension they can start to catch the timing chain case and cause a scraping sound, but it's usually constant and at a much faster frequency as the chain travels a lot faster then your noise suggests.

BTW, I don't think the water pump is driven by the belt. It looks like it might be on the end of the balancer shaft.

 

[Ralf S.]

If the air-con being on affects the noise, then that's a big hint.

The air-con compressor clutch is electro-magnetic. When the air-con is turned on, the clutch receives power, and a coil in the compressor generates a magnetic field that pulls the clutch plate against the clutch pulley, which rotates the compressor. The pulley is obviously always spinning (c/o the auxilllary belt), whereas the compressor only spins when the air-con in "on" => the coil is "live" => the plate is engaged.

The scraping sound sounds like the air-con clutch plate is not entirely disengaged from the pulley, or there is some play in the pulley bearing that is allowing the plate and pulley to touch as the pulley rotates. As John says (Post #15) the compressor bearings are unlikely to have failed so young.. but there could be some corrosion, dirt, debris etc. on the clutch shaft that is stopping the plate from moving, or disengaging, smoothly. If you don't use the air-con very often, then corrosion is more likely.

If you remove the aux belt and twist the air-con compressor pulley by hand you might be able to detect movement in the bearings and that would be the culprit.

If the bearings feel sound then with the engine running and no live animals, hair or scarves etc. in the engine bay, your dad might be able to hear or "feel" any odd noises at the compressor when the air-con is turned on inside the cabin. Depending on how closed the casing is, you may be able to see the gap between the plate and the pulley and any corrosion, dirt, debris etc. that could be causing the scrape.

In any case, when it's in this condition lubricate the shaft and moving parts. The clutch itself doesn't like lubrication.. it needs to be dry... so don't lubricate that by mistake.

If you've given it a good fertle, refit the aux belt and see if that makes any difference. If the noise is different, slightly better or slightly worse then you'll know the problem is the air-con compressor. If it makes no difference at all, then it's something else but you haven't spent anything apart from a bit of time and some spray grease.. so no harm done.


Ralf S.

 

[varesecrazy]

Hi

I have the dubious honour of owning two early twinairs.. and appreciate what they do..and dont... sound like

IF you have the option of lifting the car..and doing a little work

Favourite would be:

Remove the alternator drive belt..

At your mileage vs age it may well be partially seized.. the rainwater drains can drown the poor thing and encourage early failure


You can run the engine for a couple of minutes like this..
( turn off big loads .. like Aircon..lights..etc)

Could be MUCH quieter.. might make the aircon ON.. then OFF make less difference

Do let us know