Advice needed

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

If you are mostly like me you'll have favourite threads where you tend to "lurk". I suspect for the majority of us this is unlikely to be the one for the new Tipo (2016 onwards)? We are thinking of replacing my younger boy's aging (2007) Astra estate, which has reached the age/mileage where we seem to be embarking on a program of almost weekly replacement of worn out components. His budget is pretty tight and he'll definitely be looking at used vehicles - and he needs a reasonably capacious load lugger for his business so another estate is a necessity.

He does a lot of short town journeys so we think a diesel will just be problematic (DPF fouling etc) So we think the 1.4 T-jet 120hp will be best to go for - and probably closest to the Astra in performance. I posted last night whilst waiting for "the bells" in the Tipo thread (TV was, as always, abysmal) and two very helpful replies were made. Many thanks to you both. I just thought that it's likely most of us will be viewing here in the leisure lounge and wondered if anyone else had anything to contribute?

The Tipo is appealing because the engine is not that different to the ones in the Panda/Punto range which I am familiar with. It is quite an "old" engine which doesn't have direct injection (which chris 3234 very kindly told me about) and I already have my MES for diagnostics. I also know where to buy spares at good prices from my many years of running Pandas. Looks like it can carry a full size spare wheel too? I'm wondering if the rear seats go completely flat when folded which would be very useful when he's using it for carting his business gear around - large folding ladder in particular. We've also noticed they seem to be depreciating rapidly so a, perhaps, 2 year old car becomes very affordable.

Anyone who can comment on the vehicle will be most welcome, good or bad news is equally helpful.

Happy new year all - things have got to get better soon, haven't they?
Kindest regards
Jock

 

[varesecrazy]

Hi Jock

Not many of the regulars have the Estate

But there was one that joined as at a Cafe Meet 18 months ago.. his was diesel.. but he was very pleased with it over around 30k of ownership

Fitted with cheap used Alfa alloys for the winter..

Looked like a well equipped car.. but your use will focus on storage and convenience rather than all.day comfort

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Hi Jock

Not many of the regulars have the Estate

Looked like a well equipped car.. but your use will focus on storage and convenience rather than all.day comfort

Thanks Charlie. Been doing a bit of browsing for local availability and the estates don't seem that numerous! Luckily we are in no hurry, the Astra can be made to last for a while yet (MOT due next month though!)

Although this car will see a lot of use as his business vehicle their other car is the elderly '08 Jazz Mk1. I suspect the Tipo (if that's what we end up buying) will become the "family" vehicle and will take them on holiday etc - There's a thought, they often holiday down in the west country so wonder if it has cruise control?

 

[StevenRB45]

One of many many cars I took in before deciding buggrit I'll pay the Citroën off and keep mine.

You can only get the 120 in higher trim levels all of which should have cruise.

From what I remember looking though, very few people buy Tipos, even fewer buy estate Tipos and fewer still buy the top spec with a petrol engine. So finding a local one may be a challenge. They struck me almost as Dacia like ethos car, engineered to do the job with precisely 0 flair at all which is fair enough didn't really do it for me.

Some of the cost cutting annoyed me so even top spec car had no rear heating vents or armrest and cupholders in the centre, which for family car use isn't ideal. Also they've only recently introduced a stereo that doesn't look like this.



While whinging about a small touch screen might seem a little shallow, I think at minimum if you have one it needs to be big enough to see at glance and not require you to refocus. I think they put in the new one from the 500x which is nicer but only brand new ones have it.

Seem a reasonable car but it didn't seem to offer anything my existing 10 year old car didn't except a bigger boot and less sophisticated underpinnings.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

One of many many cars I took in before deciding buggrit I'll pay the Citroën off and keep mine.

You can only get the 120 in higher trim levels all of which should have cruise.

From what I remember looking though, very few people buy Tipos, even fewer buy estate Tipos and fewer still buy the top spec with a petrol engine. So finding a local one may be a challenge. They struck me almost as Dacia like ethos car, engineered to do the job with precisely 0 flair at all which is fair enough didn't really do it for me.

Some of the cost cutting annoyed me so even top spec car had no rear heating vents or armrest and cupholders in the centre, which for family car use isn't ideal. Also they've only recently introduced a stereo that doesn't look like this.

View attachment 214748

While whinging about a small touch screen might seem a little shallow, I think at minimum if you have one it needs to be big enough to see at glance and not require you to refocus. I think they put in the new one from the 500x which is nicer but only brand new ones have it.

Seem a reasonable car but it didn't seem to offer anything my existing 10 year old car didn't except a bigger boot and less sophisticated underpinnings.

Thanks Steven, that's very useful. I sort of already had the opinion that the car was not quite up with the newest trends/equipment. However most of the other manufacturers are into ultra small engines and direct injection, both "features" I'd like to avoid. There's also the factor that I'm pretty well set up to look after this car without buying a whole bunch of new gear or having to learn about unfamiliar mechanicals. I suspect he's going to find it more than acceptable compared to his old Astra and it's very handy to know that the T jets are likely to have cruise. Of course he still has to try one out and he might hate it!

Funny you mention the Dacia. we had a wee look at the Logan estate but, of course if you rule out the diesel and the entry level "slug" of an engine, you're left with one of the wee direct injection engines I'd rather not have. Pretty good value for money though.

I think now we have to find one and give it a spin - even if it's not the estate we should still be able to get a good idea of what it's like.

 

[StevenRB45]

I'm entirely aware of the trade offs at this point in the market..hence why I went round in circles for 18 months then decided to stick with what we knew! (not an option in your case).

Assuming about an 8 grand+ budget you can get Astra Js with the same 1.6 as he has now up to 2016. Otherwise Astra Ks with the 1.4t (which is what I was looking at) and Peugeot 308 estates are all floating around in 8-12k range at 2-3 years old, obviously all turbo although not 1.0l boosted to the sky.

In the end I decided I'd rather have something I like driving, while buying for longevity is one thing..if it works 365 days a year but is a miserable device that's not progress either. Not to say there's anything wrong with the Tipo...but the choice in general was so uninspiring that buying a Citroën C3 aircross seemed like a good idea.

Test drive is always a good plan...Internet spec sheet bingo is always helpful but there's been a few times I've thought "I'm getting one of these" then having had a play with the physical car just not felt it at all.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Thanks again Steven. Do you know if the T jet used here has a variator type cam pulley? I don't think it does. The Astra does on both inlet and exhaust cams and they failed at just around 100,000 miles. Luckily sorted before anything really important got damaged but still quite an expensive exercise to sort out. The relative simplicity of the Fiat engine appeals to me.

 

[StevenRB45]

If memory serves they are based on the Starjet and the Starjet has VVT.

Most of the modern Fiats have VVT even the 69bhp 1242 but I believe it is controlled by a solenoid rather than a variator.

It is quite hard to find any literature on it though.

 

[Paddynabs]

Our work pool cars have always been Astras. I ended up with a Tipo hire car one day and it was like going back in time. I only drove it for a couple of hundred miles but I thought it was a very dated car considering it was newer than the Astra's I'm used to (2015 model year at the time.)

It won't feel like a new car compared to a 2007 Astra.

It was loud harsh and pretty gutless from memory.

Am I right in thinking it was designed for the cheaper European markets and never intended for the UK? It was a shame as I thought the Bravo was pretty cool but Fiat's still have a bed rep from everyone whose never driven them.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

If memory serves they are based on the Starjet and the Starjet has VVT.

Most of the modern Fiats have VVT even the 69bhp 1242 but I believe it is controlled by a solenoid rather than a variator.

The Starjet is a name I'm not familiar with so I googled it: http://www.italiaspeed.com/2006/cars/other/technology/04/starjet/2004.html and found out it's the N/A 16valve with the sliding port occluding strip on the inlets. I've seen this engine before but never knew it was called "Starjet". another wonderful piece of knowledge I've learned directly through participating in this forum!

The VVT on the 1.2 and 1.4 Panda/Punto engines I do know about. The Variator pulley on the front end of the cam is spring loaded towards the retarded position. When certain conditions are met the ecu commands the solenoid on the top of the cam cover (this solenoid is inserted into the oil feed for the camshaft journals) to allow pressurized oil to flow to the Variator in the pulley which then alters/advances the valve timing for power/emissions reasons. The 1.2 got this variator when it got 69hp late in 2010/early 2011, I'm not quite so sure when the 1.4 got it but my boy's 2012 1.4 Punto Easy has it. The big "thing" to know about these engines is that if you've got a variator type pulley then your engine is definitely an interference type - so don't neglect it's cam belt change interval.

I've been doing some more research tonight into the T jet 1.4 and turned up that, I think, they have hydraulic self adjusting cam followers? - unlike the 1.2 and 1.4 8 valves I'm more used too with their shimmed followers. More disturbingly I've come across a number of references to high oil consumption which I've not known to be a problem with any of the several 8 valve engines I've owned over the years. Are these 16 valve jobbies suspect for using lots of oil?

 

[StevenRB45]

I think you'll find most designs of a certain age will have a variator if they have VVT they are more advanced ways of doing it but it was the way for some time. The Mazda has one on the inlet cam, it's very rare they actually fail though also it's none interference..so worst that would happen is it'll run badly. Unfortunately don't believe any modern Fiats are none interference.

I actually had a 16v "SuperFIRE" with hydraulic tappets, that was a 98 car. Never had any bother with those if I remember right the main thing was use the right oil and change it regularly.

Unfortunately it was killed dead by an electrical fault at 60 odd thousand miles but until then it was a decent engine. Oil use was no worse than my 8vs if anything the worst engine I had for oil consumption was an 8v 1.1 the 16v used a bit but I drove it with vigour so to be expected to a degree.

 

[DaveMcT]

The Fiat 1.8 twin cam (basically a single spark version of the Alfa TC) had an inlet cam variator. They were known for rattling like a diesel and usually had to be replaced with the cam belt. The variator was controlled by a solenoid valve which would drip oil into the inlet manifold increasing oil consumption on an engine that otherwise was in great condition.

I wonder if oil running out of that solenoid valve was the real cause of failed variations. Who knows.

Later TC engines had phase variators on both cams.

 

[Didge3]

The VVT on the 1.2 and 1.4 Panda/Punto engines I do know about. The Variator pulley on the front end of the cam is spring loaded towards the retarded position. When certain conditions are met the ecu commands the solenoid on the top of the cam cover (this solenoid is inserted into the oil feed for the camshaft journals) to allow pressurized oil to flow to the Variator in the pulley which then alters/advances the valve timing for power/emissions reasons. The 1.2 got this variator when it got 69hp late in 2010/early 2011, I'm not quite so sure when the 1.4 got it but my boy's 2012 1.4 Punto Easy has it. The big "thing" to know about these engines is that if you've got a variator type pulley then your engine is definitely an interference type - so don't neglect it's cam belt change interval.

Not sure if you're explicitly talking about 8v or 16v but I did some reading up on this back in about 2011. The 1.2 & 1.4 8v engines as far back as 2005 had VVT on the exhaust valves, I'm not sure of the specifics but it was very basic. The ECU would close the exhaust valves early to reduce emissions & marginally increase fuel economy, so long as you aren't demanding much power from it. I think all 16v engines around the same time had VVT on both intake and exhaust valves.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Not sure if you're explicitly talking about 8v or 16v but I did some reading up on this back in about 2011. The 1.2 & 1.4 8v engines as far back as 2005 had VVT on the exhaust valves, I'm not sure of the specifics but it was very basic. The ECU would close the exhaust valves early to reduce emissions & marginally increase fuel economy, so long as you aren't demanding much power from it. I think all 16v engines around the same time had VVT on both intake and exhaust valves.

Hello Didge that's very interesting. I have to make clear that pretty much all my in depth Fiat knowledge comes from having messed about with Pandas. I have no hands on experience of the 16 valve engines but I have had a number of 8 valvers. Starting with an early 750 (with distributor on the end of the cam) when my daughter was young, through a '92 Panda Parade with single point injection ( the purple one in my avatar picture) and Becky our present 60hp Dynamic Eco. There were a couple more to "play" with as well and various "bits" - engines etc. There's also my boy's 2012 Punto Easy 1.4 8 valve. From time to time I've also helped friends/neighbours with their Pandas although I now tend to restrict activities mainly to family vehicles because I'm just getting old and "creaky".

With that in mind I've never seen an 8 valve Panda built before 2010 with a variator on it's cam pulley. I did briefly try to sort out a problem with a 2011 Panda "My Life" which, did have the later 69hp engine and, if I recollect correctly, it did have a variator on it's cam sprocket just like my boy's Punto - these are both 8 valve engines with just one camshaft. This car had a hesitation when accelerating and I couldn't cure it. Shortly afterwards the 69hp euro6 engine short comings were highlighted on Watchdog on the TV and we realized this was what his problem was. Don't know if he ever got a "fix" My boy's 1.4 Punto does not suffer from this - it's no ball of fire either mind you!

So I'm intrigued by your assertion that the 8 valve engines had VVT as far back as 2005. Am I guessing that, because you talk of it being on the exhaust valves only, that you are referring to the twin cam engines? But then I do see that you mention 8 valvers? Please don't think I'm trying to be "clever" in asking this, it's just that I thought I knew quite a lot about these wee 8 valve FIRE engines and you've thrown up something here that's not "computing" in this elderly brain of mine?

Just for the sake of clarity here's a clip showing the non VVT sprocket: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJXFjC602As

And here's one, at around 7.15 minutes in, which shows the later engine's variator type sprocket: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxJjFLfVlPM

Kindest regards and all the best for the year ahead.
Jock

 

[Didge3]

As mentioned I am not familiar with the specifics and how it actually works but I found some Fiat documentation back then with 'what engine does what' kind of thing, I found this thread in an attempt to see if I had attached said documentation anywhere but apparently not...
I suspect I've gotten myself mixed up and all the valves are VVT but only the exhaust valves are interference due to the VVT

 

[DaveMcT]

Just get a MultiAir and be done with it.
Infinitely variable inlet valves using oil pressure fed from the exhaust camshaft.

This is an interesting series for petrol heads. (Greg also does some great stuff on planes and aero engines)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DnSefxN2FQ0

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Just get a MultiAir and be done with it.
Infinitely variable inlet valves using oil pressure fed from the exhaust camshaft.

This is an interesting series for petrol heads. (Greg also does some great stuff on planes and aero engines)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DnSefxN2FQ0

Multiair not an option in the Tipo. So that removes temptation.

Thanks for the link to the videos. Looks very interesting, I'll give it a go next time Mrs J is watching Eastenders.

 

[The Panda Nut]

I was a long term Bravo 1.6D driver and think it may well be the best car I ever owned. I started thinking how much better it was than the new Focus i had from work at the time, After 100K miles I respected it deeply and liked and trusted its surefootedness completely. 50-85MPG and faultless reliability once I started using Wynns diesel clean every 3rd tank. I tried the Tipo and though the drive was even better with the extra power. Equipment levels are great too. I would not hesitate to recommend the Tipo so long as you are going to keep it long enough to cope with heavy depreciation. My Bravo went from £10k to £800 in 4 years albeit after a lot of miles. As work easily more than paid for it it didnt matter too much. Just watch that you change the gear box oil a lot more often than "not necessary"! Tyre lasted 60K front and 80K back brakes were nearly as good, and this from one who usually needed tyres at 20K and brakes embarrassingly often. I have I know slowed down a fair bit in the last 10 years.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

I was a long term Bravo 1.6D driver and think it may well be the best car I ever owned. I started thinking how much better it was than the new Focus i had from work at the time, After 100K miles I respected it deeply and liked and trusted its surefootedness completely. 50-85MPG and faultless reliability once I started using Wynns diesel clean every 3rd tank. I tried the Tipo and though the drive was even better with the extra power. Equipment levels are great too. I would not hesitate to recommend the Tipo so long as you are going to keep it long enough to cope with heavy depreciation. My Bravo went from £10k to £800 in 4 years albeit after a lot of miles. As work easily more than paid for it it didnt matter too much. Just watch that you change the gear box oil a lot more often than "not necessary"! Tyre lasted 60K front and 80K back brakes were nearly as good, and this from one who usually needed tyres at 20K and brakes embarrassingly often. I have I know slowed down a fair bit in the last 10 years.

Thanks Panda Nut that was very useful. The reviews seem to be a bit of a mixed bag with a lot of criticism being leveled at stuff like their use of hard plastic trim and infotainment system not being up there with the best. They also tend to describe the driving experience as "unexciting" and that a Focus or Astra "does a better job" These comments don't put me off in the slightest as i think a lot of these car testers are highly biased - but we will definitely take a good test drive before we decide.

I'm quite attracted by the comment made, in more than one review I've read, that the car has been developed to be especially applicable to somewhat less developed parts of the world so the suspension system and other aspects are not especially sophisticated compared to other manufacturer's product - Oh goody, is my comment to that!

I also like that the T-jet is quite an old (so well proven) power unit with port injection and should be fairly easy to work on. The six speed gearbox is an unknown to me and I've no idea if it's reliable or not - any one? However I tend to renew gearbox oil at around 50 to 60 thousand miles or 5 to 6 years in all the family vehicles. Is that what you were meaning or do you tend to do it sooner.

Whilst I don't like or recommend oil additives I do think maintenance type fuel additives have a roll to play. I like the Wynns and Archoil products and I ran Wynns Eco Diesel in my diesel Cordoba which went on to well into the 100,000s of miles and had no fuel system problems when she finally succumbed to age/tin worm. - just, as you do, after I'd bought a nice, and expensive, top of the range Bosch battery for her!

Final word. Although the 1.6 diesel seems to be highly recommended we are reluctant to get involved with another diesel because although the Cordoba tdi was excellent it was an "old type" fuel system. The more modern common rail Fabia my boy had was a right barrel of worms and we also worry about DPF problems as he does a lot of town work for his business.

 

[DaveMcT]

My 1995 1.9TD-90 Passat B4 did 120,000 with me. Around 2001, I decided that £800 for suspension bushes was silly money but really I should have done it anyway, because the car was going great.

I did have an issue with the engine intermittently going down on power nobody could detect what was going on. It turned out to be the fuel injector with sensor wire. Replaced that (£120) and all was well again though I expect the other three (£90 each) would be following along soon enough.

I would not be rushing out to buy any of today's diesels.