Technical 500 noise in neutral

[Goudrons]

That to me sounds like that's the clutch release/thrust bearing.
Yes it's worn.

When you put you foot down on the clutch, the master cylinder pushes fluid to operate the slave cylinder.

The slave pushes on an arm or fork in between the gearbox and clutch pressure plate that actuates the release/thrust bearing.

This release/thrust bearing pushes on the diaphragm fingers of the pressure plate, releasing the tension on the friction plate underneath it to allow it to slip.

As the pressure plate is bolted to the engines flywheel, it constantly spins with the engine so the release/thrust bearing has to spin with it, which is why it's a bearing.

It looks like a small doughnut and fits over the gearbox's input shaft and usually comes as part of a clutch kit.
You can see it here, left to right are the release/thrust bearing, pressure plate, friction plate
https://www.shop4parts.co.uk/?name=store&op=Product&ProdID=26898

It's not uncommon for them to wear and chatter or rattle with your foot off the clutch, the balls inside have started to wear.

It tends to stop chattering when you press the pedal down as you're forcing it into the pressure plate.

It's more of an annoying problem than a driveability problem as they seem to last for a while in this state, though the clutch pedal may become heavy if the bearings starts to jam or can't spin as fast as the pressure plate.

There's no easy fix, it's a gearbox out job and you really want to change the whole clutch while you're at it, so most live with it until it's time for a new clutch.

What the mileage on you car?

I'm having a bad day and starting to doubt myself now!

There could be other reasons for this noise.

The pilot bearing could be giving trouble.
This is a small bearing in the middle of the flywheel that the gearbox input shaft end fits into. So the shaft goes right through the clutch plates and rests in the bearing in the flywheel. (though the flywheel will spin freely around it)

And then there's the input shaft bearing it's self.
This is inside the gearbox it's self and steadies the input shaft.

As these two bearing hold the input shaft in alignment, when they give trouble you often find it difficult to shift gears, some drive problems or at least some vibration issues.

The trouble is, they are all buried deep inside the engine/gearbox along with the thrust bearing and to inspect them it's a gearbox out job.

If it's going for a service, ask them to look into it or better still, run it in to a local gearbox specialist as the main dealer will be expensive.

 

[Baglady1990]

I'm having a bad day and starting to doubt myself now!



There could be other reasons for this noise.



The pilot bearing could be giving trouble.

This is a small bearing in the middle of the flywheel that the gearbox input shaft end fits into. So the shaft goes right through the clutch plates and rests in the bearing in the flywheel. (though the flywheel will spin freely around it)



And then there's the input shaft bearing it's self.

This is inside the gearbox it's self and steadies the input shaft.



As these two bearing hold the input shaft in alignment, when they give trouble you often find it difficult to shift gears, some drive problems or at least some vibration issues.



The trouble is, they are all buried deep inside the engine/gearbox along with the thrust bearing and to inspect them it's a gearbox out job.



If it's going for a service, ask them to look into it or better still, run it in to a local gearbox specialist as the main dealer will be expensive.

I never go to a main dealer I’ve learned that lesson the hard way!
Just been to my garage where it’s booked in
They hopefully will look at it tomorrow
It’s going to be expensive either way (not dealer flease) but it’s my car I love her
And anything that needs doing.... I get done!

I’d rather be in rags than walk [emoji23]

 

[jackwhoo]

Reading first post.

Noise is heard when gearbox in neutral with foot off clutch pedal.

My suggestion is check transmission oil level, top up if necessary.

Some gearboxes can be heard in the above conditions and it's normal. The gears are rotating and do make noise.

Even if it's slightly abnormal just keep an ear on it and only take further action if it becomes significantly louder.

J

 

[Baglady1990]

Reading first post.

Noise is heard when gearbox in neutral with foot off clutch pedal.

My suggestion is check transmission oil level, top up if necessary.

Some gearboxes can be heard in the above conditions and it's normal. The gears are rotating and do make noise.

Even if it's slightly abnormal just keep an ear on it and only take further action if it becomes significantly louder.

J

I’m going to get it looked at first the noise differs at different intervals but yeah foot on clutch no noise foot off grinding whirring noise
I’m up for checking oil but how do I get under car!? Isn’t car to be flat on ground or can front be up on ramps won’t that effect oil level?

 

[jackwhoo]

I’m going to get it looked at first the noise differs at different intervals but yeah foot on clutch no noise foot off grinding whirring noise
I’m up for checking oil but how do I get under car!? Isn’t car to be flat on ground or can front be up on ramps won’t that effect oil level?

Hi,

You are quite right the car has to be level to check gearbox fluid.
If you have ramps , jack and stands it is possible to lift front and rear to the same level.
As garage looking at car next week you may want to leave it to them.

When you put foot on clutch after a second or two all the gears in box stop rotating, with foot off clutch (Even in neutral) the gears in the box rotate .

 

[Baglady1990]

Hi,

You are quite right the car has to be level to check gearbox fluid.
If you have ramps , jack and stands it is possible to lift front and rear to the same level.
As garage looking at car next week you may want to leave it to them.

When you put foot on clutch after a second or two all the gears in box stop rotating, with foot off clutch (Even in neutral) the gears in the box rotate .

Thank you! Yeah this is a bit beyond my limits [emoji23] I could do the oil for sure but just been to another garage just to check and he thinks bearing
Anyway like I said it will get sorted at garage I’ll just have to cough up ?

 

[Baglady1990]

Guys when they sort this issue on Wednesday will they need to remove anything from my cabin!? Centre console gear stick ect? As I’d prefer to remove these myself prior to going in as I’ll be a bit more “gentle” scuffed parts for my car are hard to come by!

 

[jackwhoo]

Guys when they sort this issue on Wednesday will they need to remove anything from my cabin!? Centre console gear stick ect? As I’d prefer to remove these myself prior to going in as I’ll be a bit more “gentle” scuffed parts for my car are hard to come by!

They should not have to remove anything inside cabin.
(-:

 

[Baglady1990]

They should not have to remove anything inside cabin.
(-:

Fab! That’s the only problem with others doing your work! They not as careful as the owner would be [emoji23]

 

[Baglady1990]

Car goes in tomorrow for this clutch/gearbox grinding noise
Apparently it’s a long job to drop gearbox as I’m sure some of you chaps will be aware of!

I’m having a service & MOT so hopefully get her back sometime Thursday

I just need to know what I need to make sure gets done on the service.... I’m gonna ask for a brake fluid change but not sure what a standard service is included!? I’ve done air and cabin filter myself but I’ve not had a service since jan partly due to my low miles! And I guess inexperience [emoji23]

I cancelled my previous booking & re booked at a closer garage whom fitted my front suspension.. I was so impressed I decided to go with them! Obviously I can ask them but I just like to sound like I know what I’m on about!

As always any advice is greatly appreciated

 

[varesecrazy]

You are probably looking at 2 to 3 hours labour

Plus whatever parts are found at fault..

In all probability a
'clutch pack': 3 x parts ..circa £100

 

[Baglady1990]

You are probably looking at 2 to 3 hours labour



Plus whatever parts are found at fault..



In all probability a

'clutch pack': 3 x parts ..circa £100

Yeah he did say it’s a 3 part kit! Been quoted on job mostly labour costs ?
As for the service if there anything that could potentially need doing that they wouldn’t usually cover? Or is that a silly question..... only my second service & I didn’t ask on first as I was “clueless” back then!

 

[Goudrons]

Yes, the gearboxes on transverse engine cars don't come out easy and take a lot of labour.

Though it could be worse, I did a clutch in an old Rav4 4x4 and everyone told me it was an engine and gearbox out in one job, which I ignored to my cost!
Yes, you don't need to drop the lot, but it would have been a million times easier if I did.

I would pay a bit more and ask them to fit a Luk clutch kit, they are around £20 or so more than your average kit but they tend to be much better quality than most of the other brands.

 

[Ralf S.]

While low fluid could cause a rattle, it's more likely to be the clutch release bearing in my experience. The mileage is a little low for the bearing to be wearing out.. but then the mileage compared to the age of the car is consistent with a high proportion of city/town use, so that counters the "low mileage" argument.

There's no desperate rush to fix a rattly bearing but if it fails, you'll be DNF'd since you won't be able to change gear, so it's a question of "do you feel lucky?" It could last another 12 months or it could pack up next week. If it was me... I think it'd go for 3 months easily, so there's no rush to do it now, if money is scarce (although 3 months time would Christmas, which isn't likely to be any better).

They need to drop the gearbox to swap the clutch, so the labour is most of the cost... in which case you don't want to have to take the gearbox off again anytime soon... so you ought to replace the clutch as well as the bearing (I've had cars where the previous owner has replaced just the clutch and not the bearing.. which later packed up even though the "new" clutch was still reasonably good).

Change the whole lot now, circa £100 in parts and then the whole thing is new and won't need to be touched for another 5 or 6 years probably.

Fiat clutches tend to be Borg and Beck ... which are okay but by reputation a bit grabby.. or Valeo. Luk (which is owned by Valeo now) is a good alternative - kind of a Valeo budget brand and occasionally even stamped "Valeo". I'd always have a Valeo myself but the Younger Mrs S's Cinquecento has a Luk clutch and none have ever given me any aggro.

When they refit the gearbox, they'll refill it with new gear oil, so no worries there. It's not a too complex job and only needs them to disturb the nearside (left) wheel-arch.


Ralf S.

 

[Baglady1990]

While low fluid could cause a rattle, it's more likely to be the clutch release bearing in my experience. The mileage is a little low for the bearing to be wearing out.. but then the mileage compared to the age of the car is consistent with a high proportion of city/town use, so that counters the "low mileage" argument.

There's no desperate rush to fix a rattly bearing but if it fails, you'll be DNF'd since you won't be able to change gear, so it's a question of "do you feel lucky?" It could last another 12 months or it could pack up next week. If it was me... I think it'd go for 3 months easily, so there's no rush to do it now, if money is scarce (although 3 months time would Christmas, which isn't likely to be any better).

They need to drop the gearbox to swap the clutch, so the labour is most of the cost... in which case you don't want to have to take the gearbox off again anytime soon... so you ought to replace the clutch as well as the bearing (I've had cars where the previous owner has replaced just the clutch and not the bearing.. which later packed up even though the "new" clutch was still reasonably good).

Change the whole lot now, circa £100 in parts and then the whole thing is new and won't need to be touched for another 5 or 6 years probably.

Fiat clutches tend to be Borg and Beck ... which are okay but by reputation a bit grabby.. or Valeo. Luk (which is owned by Valeo now) is a good alternative - kind of a Valeo budget brand and occasionally even stamped "Valeo". I'd always have a Valeo myself but the Younger Mrs S's Cinquecento has a Luk clutch and none have ever given me any aggro.

When they refit the gearbox, they'll refill it with new gear oil, so no worries there. It's not a too complex job and only needs them to disturb the nearside (left) wheel-arch.


Ralf S.

Just been updated by mechanic
They got gearbox out expecting to see wear on clutch bearing and apparently none or very little!
It seems the gearbox is the culprit as there is some grinding!

 

[chris3234]

Just been updated by mechanic
They got gearbox out expecting to see wear on clutch bearing and apparently none or very little!
It seems the gearbox is the culprit as there is some grinding!

Sad not the best news it does seem the 1.2 gearbox on the 500 is troublesome usually the input shaft bearing I think

 

[Baglady1990]

Sam not the best news it does seem the 1.2 gearbox on the 500 is troublesome usually the input shaft bearing I think

Typical on this car judging by the history of work done [emoji23] he taking the box tomorrow to be checked by a specialist for their opinion he did mention something had seized and I was having some problems changing gear but it wasn’t very often!

Will see what he says tomorrow

 

[Baglady1990]

Anyone recommend what to do next? Obviously I have to wait for garage to call Tom but what’s the usual process here!? He’s taking it for a second opinion Tom but I’m unsure what the outcome will be!?

Will they just re fit the old one for now? They serviced the car today but it’s also in for mot

Do I buy a reconditioned one and get them to fit it or can my gearbox be fixed? What is best!?

Am I looking at double labour rates!?

Any advice always welcome

 

[varesecrazy]

Hi

Unless you say 'I need it now'.

They will assess it. Cost of repair..vs a guaranteed replacement box

Then rebuild your car

Your call with clutch..
Ask them about how worn it is..

Cost of £100 replacement now vs

3hours labour in another 50k miles (and a clutch.. but you might not have the car by then..)

If theyve performed most of the service yesterday.. ASK about the condition of things.. what can they see costing you money before next summer.

 

[Goudrons]

Best bet is a reconditioned gearbox and fit a new clutch with it.

They supply it on exchange, so yours goes back to get reconditioned for the next customer.
You should get at least 12 month warranty and hopefully they've used better quality bearing than Fiat did!


Prices start around £375 upwards to supply.

My local gearbox specialist charges £350+vat to supply one.


You might find someone to repair yours but you'll want them to strip it down and recondition it all anyway, I wouldn't be happy if they just identified an input shaft bearing and replaced that and there's more possible damage inside. To do that you'll have to wait for them to do it.


Unless you can test a used one, I'd steer clear unless your budget is really, really tight.