So my wife's 500 is going threw lots of antifreeze, its using about a pint a day. We took it to a local garage who checked the engine over and could find nothing wrong with it, they did find a worn hose to the radiator and that was changed but it made no difference, there is no signs of a leak and there is never a puddle beneath the car or anything, but after even only a short run its low on antifreeze again. There is no sign of head gasket failure and the car has no warning lights and runs with no problems. Could anyone on here maybe tell me what is wrong as we are at a loss now as to what it could be and its costing a fortune on antifreeze.
Technical 500 going through lots of antifreeze????
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Technical 500 going through lots of antifreeze????
Hello and welcome to the forum.
Losing coolant isn't normal and if not properly addressed can lead to serious engine damage. The level can sometimes take a few top-ups to settle down if the system is drained and refilled, but the car should then run for many months or even years without any significant change.
Please can you tell us a little more about the car and its history; which engine it has, how old it is, how long you've had it, and when you first noticed this issue?
Running with low coolant may cause the HG to fail, if it hasn't already. If you must continue to use your car, leave the heater on (no hardship in the UK just now!), and at the first sign of any loss of heat from it, stop as soon as you safely can. If you try to limp home when the heater isn't producing heat, the level will have fallen to the point where continuing to drive will likely ruin the engine.
I'd suggest the next step is to do a proper pressure test of the cooling system, preferably when the engine is cold. If it's losing a pint each time you run the car, the leak (whether internal or external) ought to be obvious to someone who knows what they're looking for.
Losing coolant isn't normal and if not properly addressed can lead to serious engine damage. The level can sometimes take a few top-ups to settle down if the system is drained and refilled, but the car should then run for many months or even years without any significant change.
Please can you tell us a little more about the car and its history; which engine it has, how old it is, how long you've had it, and when you first noticed this issue?
Running with low coolant may cause the HG to fail, if it hasn't already. If you must continue to use your car, leave the heater on (no hardship in the UK just now!), and at the first sign of any loss of heat from it, stop as soon as you safely can. If you try to limp home when the heater isn't producing heat, the level will have fallen to the point where continuing to drive will likely ruin the engine.
I'd suggest the next step is to do a proper pressure test of the cooling system, preferably when the engine is cold. If it's losing a pint each time you run the car, the leak (whether internal or external) ought to be obvious to someone who knows what they're looking for.
Hi 
on a 500 the usual suspect is a broken plastic part..next to the battery THAT is easy to see
HEADGASKET next likely.. as the 'water' is steamed out of the exhaust... no evidence initially.
Where are you based..?
Charlie - near the M4
on a 500 the usual suspect is a broken plastic part..next to the battery THAT is easy to seeHEADGASKET next likely.. as the 'water' is steamed out of the exhaust... no evidence initially.
Where are you based..?
Charlie - near the M4
As said above, usual failure if there is nothing obvious, is the head gasket. A fairly simple job, if done as soon as possible. Should not need a head or block skim, although most will recommend it without proper reason. Leaving it too long, may wreck an otherwise saveable engine.
The heater core can leak, but with the amount of loss you report, you'd have wet feet and a nasty smell in the car.
Water pumps can leak, often only when running, so the hot coolant evaporates leaving little or no trace. Water pump leakage is rarely reported on these engines, so the head gasket is the most likely.
The heater core can leak, but with the amount of loss you report, you'd have wet feet and a nasty smell in the car.
Water pumps can leak, often only when running, so the hot coolant evaporates leaving little or no trace. Water pump leakage is rarely reported on these engines, so the head gasket is the most likely.
Is the car new to you ?
Which type of expansion tank. Separate bottle or on the side of the radiator. Models with the external expansion bottle will not hold at the Max mark
You say you add a pint per day. Is that to the max mark. How far is it falling. Does it maintain a lower level or just keep falling
Any gurgling sounds when you turn the car on or after you switch the engine off
Are the drivers or passengers carpets damp under any rubber mats if fitted
Is the tank clean inside, is there a oily scum on top of the coolant.
Check the oil level isn’t rising
Place a piece of kitchen roll and hold it in your hand over the end of the exhaust pipe for a few seconds (engine running) is there any pink
Is the engine gauge correct
Are the heaters working correct
If you start the car with the expansion cap removed, does it smell of exhaust gasses
Did the garage carry out a sniff test?
Did the garage carry out a coolant pressure test?
Did the garage do an engine pressure test?
If you use the car everyday that 7 pints a week. Cheapest OAT anti freeze at the moment is around £4 per 2L. We need to get to the bottom of this as quick as possible.
The only way we have of knowing what’s going on ibis your feedback
Which type of expansion tank. Separate bottle or on the side of the radiator. Models with the external expansion bottle will not hold at the Max mark
You say you add a pint per day. Is that to the max mark. How far is it falling. Does it maintain a lower level or just keep falling
Any gurgling sounds when you turn the car on or after you switch the engine off
Are the drivers or passengers carpets damp under any rubber mats if fitted
Is the tank clean inside, is there a oily scum on top of the coolant.
Check the oil level isn’t rising
Place a piece of kitchen roll and hold it in your hand over the end of the exhaust pipe for a few seconds (engine running) is there any pink
Is the engine gauge correct
Are the heaters working correct
If you start the car with the expansion cap removed, does it smell of exhaust gasses
Did the garage carry out a sniff test?
Did the garage carry out a coolant pressure test?
Did the garage do an engine pressure test?
If you use the car everyday that 7 pints a week. Cheapest OAT anti freeze at the moment is around £4 per 2L. We need to get to the bottom of this as quick as possible.
The only way we have of knowing what’s going on ibis your feedback
My first stop would be a pressure test, as suggested by jrk above. With a water loss of this magnitude I would expect that to quickly give a result. If the pressure test is done but no leak is found, DO NOT immediately attempt to start the engine. In a scenario like this where coolant is being lost without any visible sign, it's likely the head gasket is blown and, after pressure testing, wou may well have a cylinder with a fair bit of coolant in it. If you crank the engine immediately it'll hydraulic lock and could do all manner of very expensive mischief! Pull the plugs first and that way, if there's coolant in a cylinder, it'll be "squirted" out (which will also help by indicating which cylinder the blow is affecting.
When the garage checked it over did they do a coolant "sniff" test? This involves using a fluid in a tester tube to check for products of combustion in the coolant. Of course the coolant should not have any products of combustion in it so if any are present then you've almost certainly got a blown head gasket. The kit is pretty cheap - in the grand plan of things - to buy, so many garage workshops will have one and it's a quick test to do and doesn't involve dismantling components, so shouldn't cost much . Here's a rather good video which describes how it works:
Most of the common problems have been mentioned in the posts - the little plastic pipe on the thermostat being a favourite - above but it's worth knowing that the metal coolant pipe which runs across the front of the 1.2 engine (is your's the four cylinder 1.2?) and is obscured by the exhaust manifold so difficult to check, can suffer from localized corrosion and can leak.
I would reinforce what's been said above about avoiding letting the coolant level drop - jrk's idea of monitoring heater output and stopping immediately if it starts to blow cold is a good idea if you really must keep driving it - however, with this amount of coolant loss I fear you are likely to be caught out and it would be better to properly sort the problem. These are robust engines (I'm talking the 1.2 FIRE engine - I have very little experience of the Twin Air - but really don't like low coolant levels (which will quickly result in head gasket problems) I also agree with.
I find myself agreeing with PB above about head skimming. I am lucky enough to have an engineers straight edge and I use it to check the flatness of both the head and block surfaces if I have a head gasket to do. Generally I find blocks don't need any more than a good and careful clean up to remove old gasket material etc - can't actually remember when I last saw a block needing to be surfaced - but heads always need to be checked carefully. However I've done a couple of heads on the Pandas over the years and none needed facing. Proof of the "pudding" being they ran perfectly after reassembly - one went off on a trip to Salisbury only a week after being done! I think heads are often needlessly skimmed in "the trade" as a safety precaution as the repairer can then say, "Not my fault gov, we had the head skimmed so it's not negligence that it's blown again"! Also gives the boss peace of mind where he may slightly doubt the ability of a member of staff to effectively find fault with the head? The only exception to this I'd make is where there's any doubt that the head may be porous or cracked then it should be pressure crack tested by an engineering workshop and they may insist on it being faced so they can check it.
When the garage checked it over did they do a coolant "sniff" test? This involves using a fluid in a tester tube to check for products of combustion in the coolant. Of course the coolant should not have any products of combustion in it so if any are present then you've almost certainly got a blown head gasket. The kit is pretty cheap - in the grand plan of things - to buy, so many garage workshops will have one and it's a quick test to do and doesn't involve dismantling components, so shouldn't cost much . Here's a rather good video which describes how it works:
Most of the common problems have been mentioned in the posts - the little plastic pipe on the thermostat being a favourite - above but it's worth knowing that the metal coolant pipe which runs across the front of the 1.2 engine (is your's the four cylinder 1.2?) and is obscured by the exhaust manifold so difficult to check, can suffer from localized corrosion and can leak.
I would reinforce what's been said above about avoiding letting the coolant level drop - jrk's idea of monitoring heater output and stopping immediately if it starts to blow cold is a good idea if you really must keep driving it - however, with this amount of coolant loss I fear you are likely to be caught out and it would be better to properly sort the problem. These are robust engines (I'm talking the 1.2 FIRE engine - I have very little experience of the Twin Air - but really don't like low coolant levels (which will quickly result in head gasket problems) I also agree with.
I find myself agreeing with PB above about head skimming. I am lucky enough to have an engineers straight edge and I use it to check the flatness of both the head and block surfaces if I have a head gasket to do. Generally I find blocks don't need any more than a good and careful clean up to remove old gasket material etc - can't actually remember when I last saw a block needing to be surfaced - but heads always need to be checked carefully. However I've done a couple of heads on the Pandas over the years and none needed facing. Proof of the "pudding" being they ran perfectly after reassembly - one went off on a trip to Salisbury only a week after being done! I think heads are often needlessly skimmed in "the trade" as a safety precaution as the repairer can then say, "Not my fault gov, we had the head skimmed so it's not negligence that it's blown again"! Also gives the boss peace of mind where he may slightly doubt the ability of a member of staff to effectively find fault with the head? The only exception to this I'd make is where there's any doubt that the head may be porous or cracked then it should be pressure crack tested by an engineering workshop and they may insist on it being faced so they can check it.
Put your hand on the carpets left and right are they wet? Has the car had a new thermostat?-if not check this first.
Fill the system to normal turn off the heater fan or climate control run the car up to temp whilst looking for leaks with a bright light, under car on the left of the engine, rad, thermostat area ,front under exhaust manifold
What age is the car?
Fill the system to normal turn off the heater fan or climate control run the car up to temp whilst looking for leaks with a bright light, under car on the left of the engine, rad, thermostat area ,front under exhaust manifold
What age is the car?
Ok, many thanks for all the helpful sugestion's. So the car is a 2011, its a 1.2 litre, we have owned it for 4 years and it has done 64,000 miles, my wife uses it for short journeys back and forth to her work. It has been very reliable and we have had no problems with it bar the door handles breaking. The car drives and runs with no problems and makes no strange noises, there are no warning lights on the dash, the oil looks good and it has been seviced regularly. The carpets are all dry the heater works as it should. Its just going threw a lot of antifreeze..
It has to be going somewhere
A pint a day is more than a little trickle
I spilt a little last night, about a table spoon
It’s still on the concrete tonight. If it’s loosing that much externally there should be evidence
Did the garage do a coolant pressure test
Did the garage do an engine compression test
Did the garage do a sniff test
Is your expansion tank separate or part of the radiator
A pint a day is more than a little trickle
I spilt a little last night, about a table spoon
It’s still on the concrete tonight. If it’s loosing that much externally there should be evidence
Did the garage do a coolant pressure test
Did the garage do an engine compression test
Did the garage do a sniff test
Is your expansion tank separate or part of the radiator
Yeah, it must be going somewhere but I cant for the life of me work out where, there is never a puddle under the car. The garage gave the engine a good once over check and had it on the ramps with the engine running and no sign of anything. There was one pipe that was changed but it made no difference, There was no special checks carried out to my knowledge and was told to just top it up and it would settle down but that was months ago now and no change. the expansion tank is at the front left of the engine bay.
I can’t believe a garage didn’t do a quick coolant pressure test
Just change the expansion tank top pump it up and see if it holds pressure
Would take all the guess work out
I believe the cars with the separate expansion bottle like yours will not maintain a maximum coolant level there not enough space for the 6% expansion,
Does it go below minimum if left a bit longer
Just change the expansion tank top pump it up and see if it holds pressure
Would take all the guess work out
I believe the cars with the separate expansion bottle like yours will not maintain a maximum coolant level there not enough space for the 6% expansion,
Does it go below minimum if left a bit longer
Given its so cold at the mo, when hot it should be evident by steam where any leak is on a still day? And a pint a day on short trips should be even more evident
The only time I've lost so much coolant that wasn't a visible leak (radiator split, so lots of "wet" under the rad, even though it wasn't actually dripping much)) was when a head gasket went. I was also getting gas in the radiator (which was ejecting coolant out of the expansion bottle cap) but that's just one likely symptom. Yours may be just a simple coolant-to-combustion chamber leak that doesn't reach or affect the oilways.
Get the head gasket checked.
Ralf s.
Get the head gasket checked.
Ralf s.
So this problem just suddenly appeared, not following any repair work? If so something has to have failed so pressure test first because it's so quick to do followed by a sniff test if nothing conclusive comes of the pressure test. Then some informed further course of action can be decided upon - maybe a cylinder leak test, which would show up problems better than a simple compression test? The garage's suggestion to just top it up and it'll settle down, when it's going through this amount of coolant, is just ridiculous! I don't want to sound insulting but I have to ask, You're not topping up 'till it's right at the top of the expansion tank are you? if this is done then coolant will always be expelled as the engine heats up so when it cools down the level will be low. Top up to the MAX mark only. (sorry if you're doing this already.
Edit. Maybe top it up then stand it over a dry surface, or nice large bit of cardboard box, and get it really nice and hot - right up 'till the cooling fan cuts in - Then look for evidence of leaks. I'm wondering if it's ejecting coolant somewhere straight onto the road - ie. so that it's not landing on any part of the car. Also it may eject it as it heats up to full running temp but then stops as pressure equalizes when it's fully up to temp? So many things it might be and it's difficult to keep on guessing at this from a distance. If you still can't get anywhere with this I think a second opinion might be the way to go - another garage I mean.
Edit. Maybe top it up then stand it over a dry surface, or nice large bit of cardboard box, and get it really nice and hot - right up 'till the cooling fan cuts in - Then look for evidence of leaks. I'm wondering if it's ejecting coolant somewhere straight onto the road - ie. so that it's not landing on any part of the car. Also it may eject it as it heats up to full running temp but then stops as pressure equalizes when it's fully up to temp? So many things it might be and it's difficult to keep on guessing at this from a distance. If you still can't get anywhere with this I think a second opinion might be the way to go - another garage I mean.
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It’s going on for far too long.
Putting £5 in antifreeze a couple of times a week will soon add up to more than the repair bill
We can suggest every part in the coolant system.
Such as water pump, welch plug behind the timing covers, welch plug within the bellhousing, front pipe, thermostat and so on and on and on
We don’t even know if it’s leaking internally or externally
I spilt a small quantity of antifreeze two days ago. It’s that cold it’s still there this morning
Putting £5 in antifreeze a couple of times a week will soon add up to more than the repair bill
We can suggest every part in the coolant system.
Such as water pump, welch plug behind the timing covers, welch plug within the bellhousing, front pipe, thermostat and so on and on and on
We don’t even know if it’s leaking internally or externally
I spilt a small quantity of antifreeze two days ago. It’s that cold it’s still there this morning
I'd agree.
Give the car to any competent mechanic with a cooling system pressure tester and they could bring this thread to a conclusion in ten minutes.
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