Technical 35mm Lowering Springs - How ??
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Technical 35mm Lowering Springs - How ??
Improved handling...????
You can check that by going to a track and run some laps mate!See,over 40mm the suspension geometry of our cars(Punto) changes and the result is bump-steering.Also the sock absorver dos not work properly because you don't give to it the lenght to work right and it always stops on the bump stop....again, where do people come up witn this rubbish
Mate I know many people that buy 50mm apex springs or eibach or HR...See peopl think that the lower tha car is the better it is in any case...LOL :yum:
Improved handling...????
You are correct in the theory that over 40mm the wishbone is level to raised - which means that the handling should be compromised, because the geometry of the suspension whilst cornering will not be as it was meant to be by FIAT - when cornering hard, the camber will change towards positive, which is not good. So, yeah, from a purist handling point of view, a drop of over 50mm is a compromise.... But this is solved by camber bolts (or in my case, camber adjustable coilovers) - if you keep the ammount of negative camber reasonable (less than 1.5 degrees for tyre longevity, im running 1.0 degrees and have no problem of abnormal tyre wear) then you completely do away with the problem of the wishbone geometry.
HOWEVER, this claim of "bump-steering" is wildly over-exaggerated, and "destroy it and make it undrivable" - wtf? this is obviously not the case. Yeah you may need to chop the bump stops if still on normal shocks, depends.
But all of these myths that "X will cause Y to fail/become dangerous/become undrivable" are caused by peoples experiences, because they have failed to do the job properly, like compensate for camber or chop the bump stops, or they have whacked mahoosive wheels and ultra lo-pro tyres on the car and still expect it to handle as well.
no, you are right that lower is not always better. But its a styling thing as well - if people cared that much they wouldnt drive puntos.
Everything in the car and modifying industry is a compromise - i think the only real cars without some sort of compromise are full on race cars - so if you are prepared to live with one or two compromises by sorting them out...
Hope all this makes sense.
My car is lowered on 50mm Spax SSX springs and KYB Excel-G's shocks. Going strong since March !!!
I don't see no reason to waste so much money on a punto personally (no offense to anyone)
As people have said, everyone to their own.
I don't see no reason to waste so much money on a punto personally (no offense to anyone)
As people have said, everyone to their own.
Here are my numbers mate
Front left wheel------0,5 degrees camber
2,3 caster
Front right wheel----- -1,15 degrees camber
2,15 degrees caster
Rear left camber -0,25 degrees
Rear right camber -0,35 degrees
I agree with you.By lowering the car you can low the center of weight of the car.But the geometry changes dramaticaly if you cannot adjust the camber of the front wheels...And the shocks don't work so well...A frind of mine has a KW full racing suspension that costs about 5000 euros.This one is a very hard to find.The mechanics of KW said that the car doesn't work so well under 40mm.And I don't mention the front silent blocks how sensitive can be if they are not by Powerflex.And not a word about the problems on the collumn of the steering wheel
.I strongly believe that under 40mm the car is dangerous technicaly...There are many reasons why...
My car is lowered on 50mm Spax SSX springs and KYB Excel-G's shocks. Going strong since March !!!
I don't see no reason to waste so much money on a punto personally (no offense to anyone)
As people have said, everyone to their own.
Well mate I hope you have the oil tank protected from the road!!!Beacause when the shocks faint you'll get in trouble...
Here are my numbers mate
Front left wheel------0,5 degrees camber
2,3 caster
Front right wheel----- -1,15 degrees camber
2,15 degrees caster
Rear left camber -0,25 degrees
Rear right camber -0,35 degrees
I agree with you.By lowering the car you can low the center of weight of the car.But the geometry changes dramaticaly if you cannot adjust the camber of the front wheels...And the shocks don't work so well...A frind of mine has a KW full racing suspension that costs about 5000 euros.This one is a very hard to find.The mechanics of KW said that the car doesn't work so well under 40mm.And I don't mention the front silent blocks how sensitive can be if they are not by Powerflex.And not a word about the problems on the collumn of the steering wheel
I strongly believe that under 40mm the car is dangerous technicaly...There are many reasons why...
why have you set your car up in this way? for circuit racing or something? In fact, are we even talking about a punto here?
and can you adjust castor on your car, and how? i was going to have some adjustable top mounts made up, but discounted it for a number of reasons.
i see why you think under 40mm is dangerous, but in practical terms this just isnt the case - going by the number of people who have just that... or maybe those with -50mm springs just drive like grannies
:nerner:seriously, come over to www.puntomk2.co.uk and ask/tell people this. There are more people with -50mm springs than on here, and a few will quite happily tell you that they have had just springs, nothing else, for over a year, whilst hammering their cars.
oh, and just for reference, my car is about 65mm lower than a regular punto at the front, and as long as the road surface doesnt resemble a rutted farm track, its fine.
Each to their own, though, and i would be interested in finding out what car and mods you have, and what its used for
OP
OP
Car nut
Established member
Didnt realise this would turn into a technical debate when I asked the original questions
Anyway, car is booked in to be done on saturday to get the springs fitted, when the shocks are goosed they'll be done, shocks and camber bolts(as advised Munkel) in the meantime it'll sit on the old shocks.
Now sourced a front bumper as well so that will be colour coded in the new year with the rear and mirrors plus a bit of rust
Do you guys colour code the door handles as well ?
Anyway, car is booked in to be done on saturday to get the springs fitted, when the shocks are goosed they'll be done, shocks and camber bolts
(as advised Munkel) in the meantime it'll sit on the old shocks.Now sourced a front bumper as well so that will be colour coded in the new year with the rear and mirrors
plus a bit of rust Do you guys colour code the door handles as well ?
why have you set your car up in this way? for circuit racing or something? In fact, are we even talking about a punto here?
and can you adjust castor on your car, and how? i was going to have some adjustable top mounts made up, but discounted it for a number of reasons.
i see why you think under 40mm is dangerous, but in practical terms this just isnt the case - going by the number of people who have just that... or maybe those with -50mm springs just drive like grannies
seriously, come over to www.puntomk2.co.uk and ask/tell people this. There are more people with -50mm springs than on here, and a few will quite happily tell you that they have had just springs, nothing else, for over a year, whilst hammering their cars.
oh, and just for reference, my car is about 65mm lower than a regular punto at the front, and as long as the road surface doesnt resemble a rutted farm track, its fine.
Each to their own, though, and i would be interested in finding out what car and mods you have, and what its used for
When you low your car the camber doesn't remane the same.It goes this way.I haven't changed anything at this point,this camber fits nice to the car but it's not so good for the tire.
I put Bilstein Sprint shocks and HR springs 35mm.I am not so satisfied from this combination,especially the springs,I think they are soft.
My car is for every-day use,the road here in Greece is terrible but we have nice mountain road and tracks.So,here's a point,with this 'poor' combination the car is cornering quite well.If you don't beleieve me look at the link
Notice the rear wheel!!!:devil:
having uneven camber and track is not good for handling. It will corner better one way than the other way, even if you cant tell.
having uneven camber with no correction means that something is off, maybe it came from factory with slack tolerances in the chassis, maybe you twisted it slightly? But of course you will know this already.
I highly reccomend tweaking the settings properly, otherwise you will never unlock the optimum handling available. I have done all the tweaks to my car myself (we have a service garage in the family) and have tweaked the settings a few times to my satisfaction (although its still biased in favour of road rather than track). The difference in handling, even if its less than quarter of a degree of change, whether in camber or track, makes a huge difference to cornering.
Its the details that count having the hardware is no use unless it's set up properly.
The back suspension in my eyes is pretty much bang on with stock settings, (lucky since its not easily changed). i can get lift-off oversteer in the dry when pushing it hard, which is quite fun. Its pretty hairy sometimes in the wet though...
Btw, nice video! I noticed the back wheel :devil:
Oh, and lastly, how do you measure your castor? especially since its completely stock.
having uneven camber with no correction means that something is off, maybe it came from factory with slack tolerances in the chassis, maybe you twisted it slightly? But of course you will know this already.
I highly reccomend tweaking the settings properly, otherwise you will never unlock the optimum handling available. I have done all the tweaks to my car myself (we have a service garage in the family) and have tweaked the settings a few times to my satisfaction (although its still biased in favour of road rather than track). The difference in handling, even if its less than quarter of a degree of change, whether in camber or track, makes a huge difference to cornering.
Its the details that count
having the hardware is no use unless it's set up properly.The back suspension in my eyes is pretty much bang on with stock settings, (lucky since its not easily changed). i can get lift-off oversteer in the dry when pushing it hard, which is quite fun. Its pretty hairy sometimes in the wet though...
Btw, nice video! I noticed the back wheel :devil:
Oh, and lastly, how do you measure your castor? especially since its completely stock.
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having uneven camber and track is not good for handling. It will corner better one way than the other way, even if you cant tell.
having uneven camber with no correction means that something is off, maybe it came from factory with slack tolerances in the chassis, maybe you twisted it slightly? But of course you will know this already.
I highly reccomend tweaking the settings properly, otherwise you will never unlock the optimum handling available. I have done all the tweaks to my car myself (we have a service garage in the family) and have tweaked the settings a few times to my satisfaction (although its still biased in favour of road rather than track). The difference in handling, even if its less than quarter of a degree of change, whether in camber or track, makes a huge difference to cornering.
Its the details that count
The back suspension in my eyes is pretty much bang on with stock settings, (lucky since its not easily changed). i can get lift-off oversteer in the dry when pushing it hard, which is quite fun. Its pretty hairy sometimes in the wet though...
Btw, nice video! I noticed the back wheel :devil:
Oh, and lastly, how do you measure your castor? especially since its completely stock.
The caster angle is measured by sensors and yes,it's stock!The price of it is not wrong mate.The camber is OK because when you get the car lower you change the geometry.It has to do with the weight canter mostly and how the car respawn to this 'change'.So you have about 1 degree negative camber angle in 35mm.There's nothing wrong with the chassis or the mounts.Thats the way Punto is.
For example,Fiat 'says' that over 2 degrees camber theres a twisted mount or bar.In this case you have 200 euros problem.
A friend of mine (skinboy his name,you can find videos of his car on youtube) has about 3 degrees negative angle camber.This car is at least to say PERFECT. The best RACING KW suspension,roll-bar,diferent sillent blocks and other mods costed several thousant euros.I think it's a bit close to the Punto s1600 but his car is an hgt.The nagative-angle camber helps the car's handling.The positive angle not.
About my set up now,
This suspension is for road use,not for track.It's not so stiff at the front as I wanted to be but see,there are 2 guys here in Greece that they can create a racing suspension with these shocks.The fisrt one is in Thessaloniki and HR and Bilstein support him.So I've got the chance to improve my car.
It's not a lie that we can have a conversation about suspension for hours.Every suspension,every set up is unique for every driver.I like my car stiffer at the back but If i put at the rear 2 400 libres spings I'll have a major problem with the handbrake.Then,the car will need more stiffnes at the front becuse is heavier at the front and gets very low in every corner.tHEN I'll have to put 450 libres at the front for example.It's not easy saying that of course...
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