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General 2011 1.2 Panda 60k. Should I replace engine belt?

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General 2011 1.2 Panda 60k. Should I replace engine belt?

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Daaave

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Hello all you good Panda people.

I inherited a panda a year ago, it’s a 2011 1.2 with ~60k miles. Been serviced every couple of years by my parents. I’d like to try bangernomics for the next 3/4 years/ 30k miles - and run it into the ground. Save up the money to buy an electric car, once they’ve sorted out the teething issues/charging network and there are some quality budget cars on the market. Also, car prices/availability is bonkers right now, so making the most of what I’ve got makes sense.

So -

Ive had the panda serviced and the Indy garage said - when I asked the same question ( will it be good for a few more years?) he said yes - there was no major corrosion, parts are cheap, etc. Will probably need a new exhaust at some point, and the 8 year old tyres need replacing. All good. I’ve followed the excellent advice on here and (fairly painlessly) installed a cig lighter socket. Put 4 new, decent tyres on.

My big question is - I don’t think it’s ever had it’s belt/ water pump done. How much of a risk is this? How likely is it to cause a problem in the next 3-4 years / 30k city miles? How common are the reports of them actually failing? Is my model a non-interference engine, where if it fails, I just get it towed to a garage and get it replaced, or do I have the newer type of engine where the belt failing ruins it? I think it’s Euro 5, if that matters.

Should I go ahead and pay the £300/400 to get it done now?

Thanks.
 
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Hello & welcome to the forum.

Your Panda being a 2011 car will have an interference engine as it has variable valve timing which the 1.2 8v FIRE engine has had since the introduction of the new Fiat 500 in 2007 so I would look into having the belt & water pump changed, although a family friend has a mk3 131 1600cl which he has owned since about 3 years old & is still on its original cambelt at 90k. Shop4Parts I find are the best suppliers for my Panda & my dad's Punto. The FIRE engine is in my opinion one of the best engines ever produced although they differ slightly from the original 1985 design they are still cheap to maintain, reliable & can be quite nippy, I much prefer the FIRE with the 8v head rather than the 16v Super FIRE as I had a Bravo 1.2 16v & found it rather gutless compared to the 8v & also quite bad on fuel. Although these engines are very tough & durable there are a few things to look out for.
1) rotten sumps as they are not the best metal in the world, plenty of aftermarket choices for these engines & quite cheap
2) on the 8v the thermostat housing where the coolant hose connects to the housing the pipe adapter is plastic, (the 1.4 16v is metal) & over time goes brittle & eventually snaps off dumping coolant everywhere leading to potential head gasket issues if your not quick to turn the engine off, early warning signs to change the thermostat will be a red powdery residue where the hose joins the housing. Quite cheap if you change it after seeing the warning sign
3) the breather hose that runs round the back of the air filter housing can break again quite cheap.
4) Rear beams on Panda's & 500's do tend to corrode but replacements are dirt cheap & most come with new bushes installed
5) They have a bit of a reputation for head gasket issues although I've never had issues with them I think it all depends how well they have been maintained.

I think thats about it, the Panda will serve you very well if you look after it even with the common issues above all of which are minor & relatively inexpensive should be fine for many years , I have a newer 319 Panda which under the body is exactly the same car, I bought new 4 years ago & have never had any issues with it, the only thing was being Euro 6 the low end torque wasn't very great at first but has freed up now & is much better. My Panda has never been into a garage for repairs or servicing even when in warranty period, I brought the genuine parts & me & my dad serviced the car on the drive, even tyre changes get done at home. Only time it goes in is for MOT which it passes with flying colours as I always check it over just before & do a lot of preventative maintenance which helps.
 
It is possible to have a 2011 1.2 60bhp. Not many of them around. This is a feb 2011 registered.
 

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Dave lee said:
It is possible to have a 2011 1.2 60bhp. Not many of them around. This is a feb 2011 registered.
Click to expand...
Yes, my 2010 Panda dynamic eco is a 60hp with the non interference engine probably one of the last produced with this engine. Although the 500 had the interference engine from the "get go" the Panda didn't adopt it until 2011 so there may be 2011 plate cars with the 60hp engine due to them having been late reggied cars? (ie. lay about in showrooms after the 69hp was introduced?) The easiest way to be absolutely sure is to slip the top pulley cover off and take a look at the camshaft pulley itself. If it's a solid metal cast pulley with the retaining nut clearly visible (may be hex or, like mine, torx) then it's a 60hp. If it's got a robust metal pressed cover bolted to it, with a removable screwed plug in the middle covering access to the pulley nut itself, then it's a 69hp. It's very likely your's will have the later interference engine, but being a 2011 reggie it just might, possibly, have the earlier engine.

Fiat Matt 94 is listing some very good things to look out for - the rusty sump being a particularly good one. Both our 2010 Panda and my boy's 2012 Punto had to have new ones fitted due to this. They can get so bad that they start to "weep" oil, like a fine mesh sieve! He mentions about the thermostats and this does seem to be a "thing" with the later engine. My boy's has one of these plastic thermostat housings but so far it's been fine, I am keeping a close eye on it though and get him to check his coolant level weekly. On that subject - coolant level - it's very important to check this regularly. These engines do not tolerate low coolant levels and will often reward you with a blown head gasket if you let them run with low coolant! By the way, the metal water pipe that runs across the front of the engine behind the exhaust down pipe/Catalytic converter is know to be a suspect if you start loosing coolant and can't find an obvious leak. Sometimes the rubber O ring leaks where the pipe fits into the back of the water pump housing but more likely it will be localized corrosion of the pipe itself. Shop4parts do an "Original Birth" branded, excellent quality, replacement for much less than the Dealer part costs. The breather hose he mentions was leaking on both of ours when we bought them - easily cured with a new hose, quite cheaply bought from Shop4parts, much cheaper than main dealer! You'll have gathered I'm a fan of S4p! By the way the earlier, 60hp, engine has a cast aluminium thermostat housing (mine's that type) which never gives trouble. However, if your water temp gauge starts to show the engine not getting hot enough, typically hovering around the quarter rather than the half way mark, it's very likely to be the thermostat failing. If this happens there's no need to panic, they run fine like this but it's best to get a new one fitted as fuel consumption and ultimately increased engine wear will result. - and you'll get slightly worse fuel consumption if the ECU thinks the engine is not properly warmed up.

Rear beam corrosion does seem to be common but many soldier on, like mine, for years even though they look "grotty". I'll buy a pattern made replacement for about £120? and do the swap over myself if/when it becomes necessary. - Slopping some Waxoyl or similar over it in the meantime may help to slow down the tin worms.

Don't be depressed by all these things we're telling you can go wrong. These wee cars are really very reliable - but do watch that coolant level. More reliable, I would say, than many others I can think of and simple to repair with parts generally cheap and easy to get hold of. So even if you're not a DIY type they shouldn't cost you a fortune to keep running. You'll gather I "love" them, we've had a Panda in the family for as long as I can remember, My kids, now all grown with families of their own, learned to drive in Pandas!

Regarding the timing belt, I change ours (Panda and Punto) at around 4/5 years or 40 to 50,000 miles, mainly on a time basis because we don't do the high mileages - my boy's Punto is their 2nd car used for shopping and local journeys. I think Fiat say 5 years/70,000 miles? Although the belts themselves seem to be very robust and seldom fail there are reports of water pump bearings in particular failing and then causing the belt to "derail" causing lots of damage if your engine is interference. I'd change the belt even if your's is not an interference engine because even if a failure doesn't damage the engine (non interference engine) it's going to be very inconvenient if it fails on a dark, wet night when you're not within easy distance of getting home, and even worse if you're in the outside lane of a dual carriageway or motorway?

Edit. Ps, I think the "My Life" model Panda was the first to appear with the VVT cam pulley (69 hp engine)
 
My 100HP needed a new cam belt because the water pump developed a leak from the pump body core plug. Coolant and cam belts do not get along. Very annoying as the belt was new when I bought the car, but it's not too hard a job.

While you are under there checking things out, do focus on the steel coolant pipe that runs under the exhaust manifold. They are well made but do rust eventually and any coolant leaks are bad news. Replacement part is £20.50 incl VAT.
 
Thanks for the great advice everyone. I’m not brilliant at the technical side of things - I’m going to take it to Motor Mech in Birmingham to do a full check of all the issues ^ like the sump etc. I’ll get them to do the cambelt/pump - they quote a competitive price and they seem to have a reasonable reputation on this site. I know - it’s not really bangernomics, but I don’t have the tools, the background knowledge, the time and the inclination to do these kind of jobs myself. Sadly, I think the internal combustion engine is on the way out, too, so investing in learning about engine maintenance is probably wasted for me in the long term.

Your advice has been really useful, though. Thanks again!
 
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Pugglt Auld Jock said:
Yes, my 2010 Panda dynamic eco is a 60hp with the non interference engine probably one of the last produced with this engine. Although the 500 had the interference engine from the "get go" the Panda didn't adopt it until 2011 so there may be 2011 plate cars with the 60hp engine due to them having been late reggied cars? (ie. lay about in showrooms after the 69hp was introduced?) The easiest way to be absolutely sure is to slip the top pulley cover off and take a look at the camshaft pulley itself. If it's a solid metal cast pulley with the retaining nut clearly visible (may be hex or, like mine, torx) then it's a 60hp. If it's got a robust metal pressed cover bolted to it, with a removable screwed plug in the middle covering access to the pulley nut itself, then it's a 69hp. It's very likely your's will have the later interference engine, but being a 2011 reggie it just might, possibly, have the earlier engine.
Click to expand...
All Panda 1.2 engines are listed as interference even the early square oil filler cap type

It can’t be much as people have got away with it snapping

The 1.2 fire engines with a lower compression ratio as used in some puntos are listed as freewheeling

As are a few early 1.1 listed as freewheeling

Thats according to autodata

60hp engines E4 high road tax 69hp E5 low road tax


I’d flip the top cover off and inspect the belt

If the writing is on the side is clear it’s been changed in the last couple of years

If it’s cracked on the outside get it changes ASAP

And anything in between just do when convenient

If it’s been serviced then it should say on the receipt.
 
Pugglt Auld Jock said:
except the "Eco" - My dynamic eco with the earlier 60hp engine only costs £30 per annum. But I'm being a wee bit "naughty" here because all the rest were more highly taxed.
Click to expand...
I only looked up the one in the advert above and it’s £190 and assumed they were all the same

Might depend on trim when it was tested and so on


There doesn’t seem to be much logic as rebadged cars are often different


I can’t remember if it’s the I10 or piccanto but the higher HP and aircon is cheaper than the low trim levels
 
koalar said:
How’s is it possible
I can’t find any 1.2 dynamic coming in under or close to the 120 limit on co2 until the eco which was introduce in 2009 with revised engines specifically to beat/be under the emissions ?

What am I missing
Click to expand...
Aye koalar, I did think the Dynamic Eco which came in, as you say, in 2009 - so still a Euro 4? - was the only pre 69hp (is that euro 5?, I get so confused by these specs) to qualify for the £30 tax. When we were looking to replace poor old Felicity (our 1992 Panda Parade) I became aware of this "£30 anomaly" and particularly went looking for one (Mrs J also likes the "cute" grill) and the Dynamic Eco was the only model which seemed to qualify. Because our Becky (2010 Dynamic Eco) is one of them I've always been very interested when they are being discussed and I believe the drop in emissions was achieved by running it on very "thin" oil - everyone goes back to the "standard 5w-40 or 10w-40 for later oil changes as far as I know, I have (5w-40) and find no detrimental effects. I did also see someone saying something about low rolling resistance tyres in one post? The interesting thing about it for me is that the 60hp 1.2 was so near the emissions for that £30 tax band that they achieved it simply by doing stuff like the thin oil and, as far as I know, there were no changes made to engine mapping etc. Clever ah?
 
Hi, and welcome :)
Yes, I think you should get the timing belt changed, if your parents have no record of it being done.
11 years is quite a bit too old as the rubber deteriorates with age. So it's on borrowed time with interest.
You might be lucky, you might not, but it's probably going to let go at some point.
Would be useful to know if it's 60hp Euro4 ('safe' non-interference) or 69hp Euro5 (not 'safe') before deciding how willing you are to gamble.
Daaave said:
I inherited a panda a year ago, it’s a 2011 1.2 with ~60k miles. Been serviced every couple of years by my parents. I’d like to try bangernomics for the next 3/4 years/ 30k miles - and run it into the ground.
Click to expand...
Heh - good luck with that! Low mileage, sounds like it's been well maintained, the bodies are galvanised, engines are reliable, these are tough little things. Your Panda might surprise you!
 
rmjbn1 said:
.
Would be useful to know if it's 60hp Euro4 ('safe' non-interference) or 69hp Euro5 (not 'safe') before deciding how willing you are to gamble.
Click to expand...
As far as I know all panda 1.2 and most 1.1 are interference. That’s not the same as it’s going to cause fatal damage

The same engine block but lower compression in the punto is listed as freewheeling


I was going to physically check my 69HP it’s mighty close to clearing. In the end I just tried it a tooth out to see if the ECU detects it. Yes it does and will not do a phonic relearn.
 
koalar said:
On that link it’s got the Eco 60hp and the 69hp ie. post 2009 at £30

The 60hp eco only just scrapes on at 119 and the cut of for £30 tax is 120

But Pre 2009 are £135 upwards

I had a 05 and 06 and instead of repairing them I bought a 11 for £300 it’s already cost nothing with the road tax saved.
Click to expand...
The post 2009 cars are £30 except for the 100 HP and for some strange reason & I really don't get why the 1.2 Elegenza is a lot higher road tax than the 1.2 Active Eco & Dynamic Eco, even post 2009 because it supposedly has 14 more grams of co2 than the eco even though its the exact same 1242cc lump with some fancy wheels & roof bars. The government do make up some silly rules sometimes, it's the same with the April 2017 tax change 1.2 Panda's & 500's registered before that date were £30 per year tax & my Panda being a 2018 car I've just paid £165 for a years tax even though its still the same 119g of co2 as the earlier cars:unsure:
 
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