Technical 2009 MultiJet engine out cam chain repair

[DaveMcT]

I've spent the evening trying to move the injector from the clutch end of the engine. One and Two came out fine. Three is trapped by the clamp it shares with Four. I can't get the head off until that injector comes out. Thanks Fiat.

It's in solid; currently soaking in carb cleaner but I'm not hopeful much will happen. It is of course the end with the worst carbon buildup. No coincidence (obviously).

 

[bugsymike]

Yup…his dewalt is actually very good at doing what it’s supposed to do (much like the one he sent back) but it didn’t really do much on the hydraulic motor on our digger except the crud of oil soaked mud, but I never really expected it to remove the oil without first blathering it in engine degreaser!

Yes , steam is king in that circumstance + Shovel + full water proof overalls. Reminds my of the endless pleasure I had as an apprentice getting the job of punctures on muck spreader split rim wheels, without any of the previous equipment. Wonder how todays apprentices would appreciate that on £3and19/6d.

 

[bugsymike]

I've spent the evening trying to move the injector from the clutch end of the engine. One and Two came out fine. Three is trapped by the clamp it shares with Four. I can't get the head off until that injector comes out. Thanks Fiat.

It's in solid; currently soaking in carb cleaner but I'm not hopeful much will happen. It is of course the end with the worst carbon buildup. No coincidence (obviously).

Commercial oven cleaner and catering heavy duty grease remover may help. As I mentioned elsewhere I had a problem with a Ford Focus using the same Bosch injectors, so if you have to resort to an extractor/slide hammer etc. that involves taking the top off the injector, remember there is a tiny ceramic glass bead/ball valve which if displaced the injector and car will not start!!! If you look at a stripped down diagram of that type of Bosch Injector you will see what I mean.
On my daughters 1.3 Multijet and others I believe they are an ongoing problem due to the poor clamping design that one little fixing has to hold two injectors, so even with recut seat,new copper washer all correctly torqued, no guaruntee it will never happen again.
I see on my 2010 1.6 Doblo Multijet they use one per injector.
I am sure you know, but for those unfamiliar when renewing timing chain crank pulley very tight, I held the square lug with a 3ft Stilson and undid the bolt (reverse thread I recall) with a 3/4 inch drive longbar and a piece of scaffold tubing , return and with new bolt is similar, but with a good torque wrench. Critical as pulley/gear is freewheeling!

 

[DaveMcT]

The injector top end moves when levered so the seizure is probably well down the hole. The carb cleaner has dribbled away. So maybe it's working some magic. I'm not happy with oven cleaner, as caustic attacks aluminium. They will all go back with a good smear of high-temperature anti-seize.

I'm waiting for an E18 socket to fit the crank bolt and have a 1/2" x 2ft long breaker bar. The engine is out of the car so planning to run some arc weld onto the bolt flange below the Torx flutes area. The heat shock should help (I hope).

I was going to buy a complete gasket set with new pulley flange, pulley bolt and top end gasket set. Waiting until I get the head off.

 

[porta]

Yes , steam is king in that circumstance + Shovel + full water proof overalls. Reminds my of the endless pleasure I had as an apprentice getting the job of punctures on muck spreader split rim wheels, without any of the previous equipment. Wonder how todays apprentices would appreciate that on £3and19/6d.

In real terms apprenticeship wages have fallen, my mate was shocked wehn his son said he wanted to go into his trade!

 

[bugsymike]

Dave I agree about oven cleaner but OK if cleaned away as soon as done the job. Preferably with steam cleaner . The commercial catering degreaser is made to work with aluminum pots and pans so should be fine.
"porta" As a young lad my mum said get yourself an apprenticeship and you will never be out of work. In fifty years in the trade I was only unemployed for two weeks and that is when I jacked a job in as they wouldn't up my wages, I got £7 one week and £9 the second of unemployment benefit, at which point I was offered a job at another garage with a third increase on my wage and left there as the foreman to run my own business . Times have changed but having a skill of some kind puts you ahead of the herd, so as long as it is the right skill for todays employment market.

 

[porta]

Apprenticeships aren’t like they used to be, the mate who doesn’t want his son following him was my apprentice. He says the pay is cr@p, they’re treated worse than wehn we were trained, and they have to be shown which way round to use a screwdriver but not how to use an AVO meter…I agree on getting a trade but, with some trades, the training is so watered down that, really, they’re having to learn the job way past being ‘passed out’. It’s alway was ongoing training, but Jimbob says anything past exhaust, brakes, clutches gets passed to ‘the old hands’ as the dealerships need to get motors in and out and diagnosing anything relys on a computer that spits out codes and possible reasons for faults…the Garage we take our motors to is run and staffed by blokes my age, 57, or older! That’s not to say there aren’t any good young uns, as there are, but many are self-taught ‘modders’

 

[bugsymike]

We learnt at college but also from all the older mechanics who took their time to explain along with taking the **** of course.
Yes money was and is crap, that is why you learn everything you can and then start up on your own when you are good enough.
I used to joke that I wouldn't have employed me for the first ten years, as I reckon it takes that long learn how to diagnose the fault correctly, fix it quickly and know there will be no come backs.
Our local Ford dealer used to have loads of apprentices and one skilled charge hand, as soon as the apprentices were fully qualified and wanted a good wage they were told you can either go in the stores or F*** *** I had a mate from there who got more money reading Gas Meters after he qualified!
Mind you these days it is more electronics etc. I doubt few would be able to strip and overhaul engines, gearboxes, etc. but then I struggle with the new stuff.

 

[porta]

We learnt at college but also from all the older mechanics who took their time to explain along with taking the **** of course.
Yes money was and is crap, that is why you learn everything you can and then start up on your own when you are good enough.
I used to joke that I wouldn't have employed me for the first ten years, as I reckon it takes that long learn how to diagnose the fault correctly, fix it quickly and know there will be no come backs.
Our local Ford dealer used to have loads of apprentices and one skilled charge hand, as soon as the apprentices were fully qualified and wanted a good wage they were told you can either go in the stores or F*** *** I had a mate from there who got more money reading Gas Meters after he qualified!
Mind you these days it is more electronics etc. I doubt few would be able to strip and overhaul engines, gearboxes, etc. but then I struggle with the new stuff.

A lot I trained with are still in the trade, but as workshop managers, a lot I trained became plumbers (dunno why) some went to BT and Yorkshire Electricity (wehn the y had their own vehicles and workshops)
Everything is electronic now, I only have a go if I can get a mate, still in the trade, to give me the values your supposed to get checking sensors, ecu pins etc, so not often!

 

[bugsymike]

A lot I trained with are still in the trade, but as workshop managers, a lot I trained became plumbers (dunno why) some went to BT and Yorkshire Electricity (wehn the y had their own vehicles and workshops)
Everything is electronic now, I only have a go if I can get a mate, still in the trade, to give me the values your supposed to get checking sensors, ecu pins etc, so not often!

I had several requests to work for mates in their garages, sometimes for more money than I was making at times , but knowing that when busy, all the money you have worked for is going in your pocket and when quiet I could always jump on my old boat for a few hours and catch some fish, whilst reading a book with a tin of beer in my hand made it easy to decline the offers. As they say "it's tough at the top"

 

[DaveMcT]

My skills date back to my first career at a power station. We worked with big heavy stuff but the principles are the same and we did a lot of fitting and making new parts. One of my pet hates is where where designers did not consider maintenance. Cars are of course built to a price but the poor maintainability is almost deliberate. Diesel injectors are a great example and well known for jamming in place, yet they have nothing built in that allows you to extract them. Two simple lugs to take jacking bolts are all they need. But instead we have to buy extraction tools and hope the kit does the job.

Cleaning the engine externally - anything aggressive does it for me including caustic as it would not be on the metal for long. Getting into a tight gap that's (probably) clogged with carbon and needs to sit for days is another matter, hence the solvent.

 

[varesecrazy]

Apprenticeships..
Some of you did 5 years..I did 4

Nowadays they get 2 years..and no guarantee of a job at the end

 

[porta]

Apprenticeships..
Some of you did 5 years..I did 4

Nowadays they get 2 years..and no guarantee of a job at the end

Four years for me, with the last year concentrating on electrical…the college couldn’t understand why I was so bad at maths but top of class in physics, but it was ‘applied physics’ and I just seemed to be ‘intuitive’. At Warrington, on Fiat/Lancia (then Alfa) courses, it was pretty much the same, I’m sure they thought I just had ‘lucky guesses’…if anyone remembers those Fiat technical memos and manual supplements (on green paper for some reason)…anyone who came up with ‘work-arounds’ got special mentions…working with for nearly two days with D’silva (Fiat Technical boss, remember him?) and myself got a track day out of solving bad interference on 164 radio/cassette, nothing special but annoyingly difficult to trace and remedy and customers were rightly pissed off!

 

[DaveMcT]

The E18 impact socket arrived. Two days late but at least it’s here.

Really tight bolts always need a solid reaction force. I don’t want the crank itself over-stressed, so I’ve made a lock plate for the crank pulley carrier. It’s 50mm x 5mm steel with a divot to clear the centre boss and a pair of M8 HT bolts. It bears against a socket bolted to the belt tensioner. Solid as it’s going to get.
The 600mm breaker bar alone was too weak. Adding an 800mm extension tube shifted it easily. Ping Ping and job done.

By the way, this is not a rushed project. The engine is out of the car so I can work easily as and when I get a few minutes. Next problem is that horrible #4 injector.

 

[DaveMcT]

None drive end crank holding tool.
The socket at top end sits over the tensioner to spread load. M10 bolt holds it on.
Bottom end fits the pulley boss and between them I’ve go a really sold reactionary force.

 

[DaveMcT]

This breaker bar with cheater tube made light work of shifting the bolt. New bolt will be fitted.

 

[bugsymike]

None drive end crank holding tool.
The socket at top end sits over the tensioner to spread load. M10 bolt holds it on.
Bottom end fits the pulley boss and between them I’ve go a really sold reactionary force.

The tool you made has done the job, always satisfying , I was lucky as often working on larger vehicles in the past I have the 3ft Stilson and 3/4 drive bars etc. So the Stilson wrapped on nicely to that crank flange without damage and as the engine was still in the car I was able to jam the Stilson onto the ground, allowing me to pull on the 3/4 socket bar with 18 mm impact socket and adaptor, but as you say certainly went off with a ping when undid.

 

[DaveMcT]

I hit it first with the 1/2” drive hammer wrench that claims 400Nm. There’s no way it was going to move it but it might just have helped loosen the thing. I’m getting a full chain and top end gasket set that includes the bolts and that crank pulley boss. But first that #4 injector has to come out so I can assess the valves, pistons etc.

 

[bugsymike]

I hit it first with the 1/2” drive hammer wrench that claims 400Nm. There’s no way it was going to move it but it might just have helped loosen the thing. I’m getting a full chain and top end gasket set that includes the bolts and that crank pulley boss. But first that #4 injector has to come out so I can assess the valves, pistons etc.

If you have to disturb pistons, I am a great fan of a light hone using the three stones on a spring loaded tool and a set of rings even if no obvious wear for what they cost.

 

[DaveMcT]

If the bores are worn I will probably call it a day. Which makes the costs of the injector extraction tool a risk to say the least. Not to mention the E18 socket.

Removing pistons will demand a new set of stretch bolts for the main bearing cage and big ends. This engine does not have separate bearing caps. Even doing it in spare time with no rush, I can't see the costs being viable.

I live in hope that injector will move and the engine internals will be good. The oil was (VERY) black but a nice consistency and the sump was clean. All I found were cam chain pins. Shockingly small to be honest. Thanks to Fiat bean counters.