Technical 2.3L 120 multijet RPM surge

[Ducatomick1988]

So when driving, if I floor the accelerator (seems to be only in 6th gear) when the rev counter reaches roughly 2100RPM the RPM surges to 3k for a second and goes back to 2100RPM, kind of like I’m slightly dipping the clutch, even though I’m not.

Does anyone know what this problem could be or had it happen to them? Seems strange it only seems to happen in 6th and when I floor the accelerator pedal, if I gradually increase the speed slowing there is no surge

I’ve attached a video ( not me recording )

Thanks guys.

 

[bugsymike]

So when driving, if I floor the accelerator (seems to be only in 6th gear) when the rev counter reaches roughly 2100RPM the RPM surges to 3k for a second and goes back to 2100RPM, kind of like I’m slightly dipping the clutch, even though I’m not.

Does anyone know what this problem could be or had it happen to them? Seems strange it only seems to happen in 6th and when I floor the accelerator pedal, if I gradually increase the speed slowing there is no surge

I’ve attached a video ( not me recording )

Thanks guys.

I am guessing that the clutch is starting to feel it's age/slipping, if it is more noticeable on a slight uphill road and with full throttle/accelerator when engine is warmed up and pulling well, also can you encourage it to happen by driving fast in fifth then as you change to sixth accelerate right away and be a little slow/lazy bringing your foot back off the clutch.
If that makes it do it worse / more revving and vehicle not going faster, it points in that direction.
Sometimes you may notice a smell like sticking brakes coming from around the engine.
It is normal for a slipping clutch to be first noticed in the higher gears fifth, sixth.

 

[Ducatomick1988]

Thanks for the reply

I am guessing that the clutch is starting to feel it's age/slipping, if it is more noticeable on a slight uphill road and with full throttle/accelerator when engine is warmed up and pulling well, also can you encourage it to happen by driving fast in fifth then as you change to sixth accelerate right away and be a little slow/lazy bringing your foot back off the clutch.
If that makes it do it worse / more revving and vehicle not going faster, it points in that direction.
Sometimes you may notice a smell like sticking brakes coming from around the engine.
It is normal for a slipping clutch to be first noticed in the higher gears fifth, sixth.

Thanks for the reply! That was my guess but I wasn’t sure why it only happened in the highest gear but if that’s usually the case then it makes sense. The van is a 2011 but only has 62k miles. Does this mean the clutch needs replacing ASAP and could likely go on me?

 

[bugsymike]

Thanks for the reply

Thanks for the reply! That was my guess but I wasn’t sure why it only happened in the highest gear but if that’s usually the case then it makes sense. The van is a 2011 but only has 62k miles. Does this mean the clutch needs replacing ASAP and could likely go on me?

If those symptoms sound correct, then how long depends on what sort of journeys you make, where and how you drive.
Basically if you are doing very little mileage and potter around locally , avoiding large throttle/accelerator use, stay off the higher gears where possible, try to imagine you are on an economy run, then it could carry on for several months.
High mileage, speed, heavy loads, hill starts etc. could reduce that to weeks or less.
Years ago we took a vehicle in part exchange with a badly worn clutch and my then boss used it for several long journeys and finally sold it to a buyer, I asked him about booking in to the workshop for the clutch job, to which he replied it was fine , the new customer a few weeks later reported the clutch fault and the garage owner, my boss told him it had been fine when he sold it , but that as a gesture he would contribute 50% towards the costs, which basically meant the buyer paid for the clutch job! This confirmed what I already felt about car salesmen!
Conversely as an apprentice in a different garage we had a customer who burnt out several clutches on a Hillman Imp in weeks, this turned out to be just a very bad driver as by chance someone else happened to be behind her one day driving up a steep hill and rather than changing down a gear going up hill she would just slip the clutch and rev like hell.
Going back to the beginning slip in high gears is usually the first indications, along with having to lift your foot almost of the clutch pedal before the vehicle takes up drive.

 

[Anthony489]

Hi

That RPM range corresponds to maximum torque from the engine, which in turn demands the most from the clutch. It would seem likely that you have the first stages of clutch slip. You can probably "nurse" it for a while, and it's unlikely to suddenly get worse. But don't let it slip in a prolonged way or the heat might wreck the flywheel surface (or even the dual mass flywheel innards) as well as the friction plate.

I once had to drive back a Landrover which a junior employee had tried (unsuccessfully) to extricate from soft ground. Even though the clutch and flywheel had been repaired by then, the stink of burnt linings was still lingering a week later. Even the repairer complained, and had parked it away from their workshop in the furthest corner of the compound !

 

[Ducatomick1988]

If those symptoms sound correct, then how long depends on what sort of journeys you make, where and how you drive.
Basically if you are doing very little mileage and potter around locally , avoiding large throttle/accelerator use, stay off the higher gears where possible, try to imagine you are on an economy run, then it could carry on for several months.
High mileage, speed, heavy loads, hill starts etc. could reduce that to weeks or less.
Years ago we took a vehicle in part exchange with a badly worn clutch and my then boss used it for several long journeys and finally sold it to a buyer, I asked him about booking in to the workshop for the clutch job, to which he replied it was fine , the new customer a few weeks later reported the clutch fault and the garage owner, my boss told him it had been fine when he sold it , but that as a gesture he would contribute 50% towards the costs, which basically meant the buyer paid for the clutch job! This confirmed what I already felt about car salesmen!
Conversely as an apprentice in a different garage we had a customer who burnt out several clutches on a Hillman Imp in weeks, this turned out to be just a very bad driver as by chance someone else happened to be behind her one day driving up a steep hill and rather than changing down a gear going up hill she would just slip the clutch and rev like hell.
Going back to the beginning slip in high gears is usually the first indications, along with having to lift your foot almost off the clutch pedal before the vehicle takes up drive

If those symptoms sound correct, then how long depends on what sort of journeys you make, where and how you drive.
Basically if you are doing very little mileage and potter around locally , avoiding large throttle/accelerator use, stay off the higher gears where possible, try to imagine you are on an economy run, then it could carry on for several months.
High mileage, speed, heavy loads, hill starts etc. could reduce that to weeks or less.
Years ago we took a vehicle in part exchange with a badly worn clutch and my then boss used it for several long journeys and finally sold it to a buyer, I asked him about booking in to the workshop for the clutch job, to which he replied it was fine , the new customer a few weeks later reported the clutch fault and the garage owner, my boss told him it had been fine when he sold it , but that as a gesture he would contribute 50% towards the costs, which basically meant the buyer paid for the clutch job! This confirmed what I already felt about car salesmen!
Conversely as an apprentice in a different garage we had a customer who burnt out several clutches on a Hillman Imp in weeks, this turned out to be just a very bad driver as by chance someone else happened to be behind her one day driving up a steep hill and rather than changing down a gear going up hill she would just slip the clutch and rev like hell.
Going back to the beginning slip in high gears is usually the first indications, along with having to lift your foot almost of the clutch pedal before the vehicle takes up drive.

Thanks Mike. The symptoms sound pretty consistent with my issues. I do potter around mostly but every 2 weeks I do a 4 hour drive for work in high gears the whole way so sounds like I need to be getting it done sooner rather than later

Yep that sounds about right, car salesman are all the same!

My next question, if you have any idea.. what sort of price will I be looking at for a new clutch with Labour (just what I need after Christmas)

 

[bugsymike]

Thanks Mike. The symptoms sound pretty consistent with my issues. I do potter around mostly but every 2 weeks I do a 4 hour drive for work in high gears the whole way so sounds like I need to be getting it done sooner rather than later

Yep that sounds about right, car salesman are all the same!

My next question, if you have any idea.. what sort of price will I be looking at for a new clutch with Labour (just what I need after Christmas)

Sorry I am retired after over fifty years in the trade, 70 years old so no idea of current costs. Guessing I would say around five hours labour at what ever current hourly rates approx. and check eBay for a guide on price for your model , but expect a much higher retail price from the garage to cover their overheads. parts prices and quality do not always match. Try and get a warranty from your garage.
Also if clutch kit includes dual mass flywheel it will be more than a basic clutch assembly and if your vehicle has a concentric clutch slave cylinder make sure a new one is included as it can only be fitted with gearbox out!

 

[bugsymike]

Hi

That RPM range corresponds to maximum torque from the engine, which in turn demands the most from the clutch. It would seem likely that you have the first stages of clutch slip. You can probably "nurse" it for a while, and it's unlikely to suddenly get worse. But don't let it slip in a prolonged way or the heat might wreck the flywheel surface (or even the dual mass flywheel innards) as well as the friction plate.

I once had to drive back a Landrover which a junior employee had tried (unsuccessfully) to extricate from soft ground. Even though the clutch and flywheel had been repaired by then, the stink of burnt linings was still lingering a week later. Even the repairer complained, and had parked it away from their workshop in the furthest corner of the compound !

As an apprentice in 1970 I fitted a clutch on a Series 2 Land Rover for the local riding stables ( a nice smelly job) two years later the girls had burnt the clutch out again and I found my 7/16ths AF spanner still on one of the seatbolts underneath the vehicle, I still have that spanner today though it doesn't see much AF work these days

 

[csnj]

Good morning Ducatomick and greetings from foggy Munich.

I was wondering if replacing clutch has helped the issue? I am observing exactly same behaviour in my 2012 Ducato 2.3 - it is a motorhome with ca. 100K km on it so almost the same as your van back then.

I am observing this since ca. 2 years but this happens mainly on cruise control when starting a steep climb and computer hits the accellerator with full force. Sometimes this behaviour stops for few trips but then it comes back.

Have you also replaced the flywheel or just the clutch? I would rather do it now and only the clutch thus saving money on the flywheel.

I am looking forward hearing back from you.

Regards,

Chris

 

[bugsymike]

Good morning Ducatomick and greetings from foggy Munich.

I was wondering if replacing clutch has helped the issue? I am observing exactly same behaviour in my 2012 Ducato 2.3 - it is a motorhome with ca. 100K km on it so almost the same as your van back then.

I am observing this since ca. 2 years but this happens mainly on cruise control when starting a steep climb and computer hits the accellerator with full force. Sometimes this behaviour stops for few trips but then it comes back.

Have you also replaced the flywheel or just the clutch? I would rather do it now and only the clutch thus saving money on the flywheel.

I am looking forward hearing back from you.

Regards,

Chris

May be totally unrelated, but some years ago I had a customer who had always had his Citroen C8 Dealer serviced from new including fitting a clutch.
Whilst diagnosing an unrelated issue I found an error code regarding clutch pedal position, I told customer and he asked me to delete it.
A few days later he reported back to me that the car was going much better.
It turned out the ECU registered the wear on the old clutch and "detuned" the engine to extend clutch life.
The Citroen Dealership should have read the code and deleted it after fitting the new clutch assembly, but neglected to do so.

 

[csnj]

May be totally unrelated, but some years ago I had a customer who had always had his Citroen C8 Dealer serviced from new including fitting a clutch.
Whilst diagnosing an unrelated issue I found an error code regarding clutch pedal position, I told customer and he asked me to delete it.
A few days later he reported back to me that the car was going much better.
It turned out the ECU registered the wear on the old clutch and "detuned" the engine to extend clutch life.
The Citroen Dealership should have read the code and deleted it after fitting the new clutch assembly, but neglected to do so.

Hi Mike - I read a little about it after your comment but I cannot see how this could affect my car. As far as I am concerned there is no clutch pedal position sensor in my Ducato - you can start it with disengaged clutch and engaged clutch.

Would you be so kind and ask 'Ducatomick' in private message (I am a new member and thus my access is limited) to answer my post?

Thank you so kindly,

Chris

 

[bugsymike]

Hi Mike - I read a little about it after your comment but I cannot see how this could affect my car. As far as I am concerned there is no clutch pedal position sensor in my Ducato - you can start it with disengaged clutch and engaged clutch.

Would you be so kind and ask 'Ducatomick' in private message (I am a new member and thus my access is limited) to answer my post?

Thank you so kindly,

Chris

This issue wasn't with a vehicle that had to be started with clutch depressed, the pedal sensor detected when the lever had started to rise higher than it's normal off position due to clutch wear.
On many vehicles with a cable clutch rather than hydraulic it is possible to put your foot under the clutch pedal and lift it above it's normal off position and if adjustable clutch cable then they should be adjusted so that brake and clutch pedal were at the same height.
I see @Ducatomick1988 hasn't messaged for over a year so may not be available, also his issue was more a worn slipping clutch I believe.