MIG welding gas supplies.

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MIG welding gas supplies.

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Hello everybody. I learned to gas weld at college in the '60s and have gained skills in "Stick welding and MIG/MAG as the years have gone by. Never learned TIG though, but you always need something to aspire to don't you?

Anyway, now retired and in my early 70s I find I'm very much now what you would call a "hobby welder". I've had a BOC "Y" size bottle - approx 20 litres I think - (argon/ CO2) for my MIG for many years but really it's much bigger than I need and the hire charge is crippling (bill for £70 for the next year just came in) So I'm looking at the "Rent Free" cylinders. There's quite a choice isn't there? Anyone on here got any experience with suppliers?

The BOC product is an Argon CO2 mix with a "sniff" of oxygen and I notice the Hobbyweld is the same so maybe filled with a BOC gas? The SGS product is an Argon CO2 mix without the oxygen. I understand the oxygen "smooths" the weld slightly but as I've been using a genuine BOC product for years I don't know if I'd notice the difference changing to an Argon CO2 mix without the Oxygen? I ask because SGS fill all their cylinders to 200 bar whereas the other providers only fill their larger bottles to this, the smaller 10 litre bottles (which is the size I'm interested in) they only fill to 137 bar So the SGS bottle interests me a lot as my regulator can handle the BOC standard 230 bar service - even if the SGS gas is "only" an argon/cO2 mix. Also my local factor deals with SGS and can supply me immediately with refils guaranteed. As they are only 5 minutes away I'm very tempted.

Anyone like to give advice?
Thanks Jock
 
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Well being interest myself I checked with my local SGS distributor.

10L CO2/5% Argon is £45 plus once off refundable deposit of £70 (NOTE! 10L Water Capacity)
Dual Guague (pressure & flow) regulator is £57
Regulator Tail Kit £6

So actually excellent value for money compare to the small hobby bottles at £17 a go.
 
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As an ex welder and I’ve used mig for home jobs etc, I was fed up by every time More often than not I was out of gas, so I’ve went gas less. Flux core wire, a wee bit more splatter, but if you know what you are doing, good to go.
 
As an ex welder and I’ve used mig for home jobs etc, I was fed up by every time More often than not I was out of gas, so I’ve went gas less. Flux core wire, a wee bit more splatter, but if you know what you are doing, good to go.

Yes gas less is reportedly OK (I've not used) but one advantage of gas is that it creates a cooling shield that is invaluable when welding thin sheet steel.

On my Cebora mig welder I could weld 2mm+ (like Dexian metal work) with a hobby gas bottle with no real problems.

However when I went to thin sheet steel (like o used on cars) I could spot weld but trying to seam weld would distort the metals. If I cranked the gas flow up things were a lot better but would exhaust those expensive little gas bottles in no time.

In theory one should be able to sign ones name on a flat 1mm piece of sheet steel with no distortion. Can you do this with a gas less flux cored welding wire?????
 
Ooooo!!! a test :D It’s all in the settings. My son in law and myself invested in a welder specifically aimed at being gas less. If you set the welder correctly no problems, the one that we have has automatic wire speed as well.

As an added extra so to speak you can weld flux core outside in the wind without the fear of porosity.
 
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As an ex welder and I’ve used mig for home jobs etc, I was fed up by every time More often than not I was out of gas, so I’ve went gas less. Flux core wire, a wee bit more splatter, but if you know what you are doing, good to go.
I've been looking at local suppliers too but haven't yet managed to contact them all. My nearest factor, and they are the one I buy most from, have quoted me £137.53 for my starter 10 litre cylinder and £177.86 if I want to go with the 20 litre. They are SGS agents. The chap who answered the phone was not a chap I'd talked to before and couldn't break down cylinder surcharge and fill prices - suggested I ring back Monday. Seems pricey compared to what you were quoted? There is also a Hobby weld supplier within a half hour drive but they seem to be shut just now - going to try them on Monday too. Then there's a real "left field" supplier I've become aware of. Seems to be an independent set up whose "doing his own thing" but has quite a substantial set up just out of town on a farm. His main business is supplying fuel oils but tells me he's been doing the gasses for about 8 years. 10 litre bottle £55.00 deposit and £39.59 per fill. I asked whose bottles they are and he said "mine, I do it all myself" he also told me the fill was to 137 bar which is what Hobby weld operate at whereas SGS bottles are at 200 bar. There's far to many regulations around high pressure gasses so I very much doubt if it's truly "his own". So lots of interesting stuff for me to look into. Got to get out of BOC though, they are bleeding me dry!

Jim, back when I used to do my hobby welding classes for Lothian Region Community Education I had a couple of students bring in No Gas sets. They were quite good, especially on the slightly thicker stuff. As you say a bit more spatter and a less controllable process on thin stuff. As most of my students were wanting to weld bodywork on cars or do artistic stuff like making owls etc, I found the gas sets worked better. The problem has always been the gas though - those wee bottles would hardly last long enough to give intermittent use for an evening.

Damn it, sorry guys, I tried to do the multiquote thing and get you both in this reply but I still can't do it. I did manage to do it once about a year ago but I really don't get it! Sorry! However thank you both for replying.

Jim, with you being a professional, do you think I will notice any difference between the gas which has the "whiff" of oxygen (Hobby weld and Argoshield light) and the one which doesn't (SGS) I'm asking because I've been using the BOC gas, which has it, for many years but I fancy the SGS with it's service fill of 200 bar (as against their competition at 137 bar) which doesn't.

Thanks again for your replies fellers
Regards
Jock
 
I'll certainly give you that Jim. Welding bits under cars outside when even quite a moderate wind is blowing does become problematic.

Cebora Mig? the people who, I believe, produced the first "pocket mig"? Mine is the 130 Turbo Pocket Mig - same one Snap On (and someone else, I think it was BOC?) badged up and sold as their own. I've had it for years and the only problem - outside of consumables like wire liners, tips, etc - I've had is with the electric contacts in the torch which tend to carbon up and make the wire drive operate erratically. A quick strip down and clean up soon has it going again though. Been thinking about a Euro Torch conversion but I don't really use it very often now so maybe best to just keep cleaning those contacts (annoying as it is)
 
Ooooo!!! a test :D It’s all in the settings. My son in law and myself invested in a welder specifically aimed at being gas less. If you set the welder correctly no problems, the one that we have has automatic wire speed as well.

As an added extra so to speak you can weld flux core outside in the wind without the fear of porosity.

Well as you say it is all in the settings AND I would add the experience and the practice. Experience/practice can IMHO completely overrule many theories etc.

An example of this would be home wine making. You read the books, buy the proper kit, invested the time only to finally open a "tart tasting head banger". Many moons/years later you are more than satisfied.

I'm more than happy and semi experienced in welding chunky bits of metal together with good flow and penetration but when it comes to the vehicle thin sheet steel this becomes a finer art with more experience required and better kit abilities.

Unless one is taking welding up as a dedicated hobby then periodic and casual episodes using a welder on one's car/thin material is going to be a real challenge which I would love to master BUT hope my vehicles never need it. And in that last point (hope they never need it) lies many sorry stories of "my car needs a little welding so I'll get a mig welder from xyz, do a little reading, and do the job myself".

I sort of dread the day I have to use my mig welder on any of our cars precisely because I know that I could end up with more damage than I'm trying to "cleanly" repair/patch. It is so easy to blow away more old good metal material than lay down a solid neat weld to new material.

I take my hat off to all experienced welders that can work with thin and delicate materials.
 
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Unless one is taking welding up as a dedicated hobby then periodic and casual episodes using a welder on one's car/thin material is going to be a real challenge which I would love to master BUT hope my vehicles never need it. And in that last point (hope they never need it) lies many sorry stories of "my car needs a little welding so I'll get a mig welder from xyz, do a little reading, and do the job myself".

I sort of dread the day I have to use my mig welder on any of our cars precisely because I know that I could end up with more damage than I'm trying to "cleanly" repair/patch. It is so easy to blow away more old good metal material than lay down a solid neat weld to new material.
Amen to that! Trying to lay a continuous bead on something like a repair patch on the bottom of a door is insanely difficult without a great deal of experience. Thankfully, as that's what most of us try to do, chassis/box sections are a little easier. I would teach inexperienced learners on their own machines (important because even two similar machines will be different to use) and get them to practice doing very short runs and alternating along the length of the weld to minimize distortion. If you are having trouble blowing holes it can sometimes help to make your patch out of sheet which is next size thicker than the existing panel. Then there's always the danger of fire which should not be underestimated. Set fire to your house because you've been welding a car in your garage and just see what your home insurance thinks of it!

I have to say though that I've never been as happy welding thin sheet with the mig. For me it's gas (oxy acetylene) all the way. Of course some of the new high strength steels used in modern vehicles don't like to be gas welded and can become brittle. Doesn't really affect me now as I'm mostly welding up bits of lawnmowers, cultivators, trailers, motor cycles and the like. I leave the nasty messy car stuff to my welder friend who makes his living doing MOT repairs.
 
Hi Jock, argon and a mix of co2 is deemed best to give you the best chance of welding mild thin steel. In saying that, that’s only half the story, the welding machine has to be set right and I could tell by the crackle noise if it is right or wrong.

To bring things up a notch, if you can weld overhead, you know you’ve made it.:D

There is an old welders saying. The difference between a good and bad weld is making sure you are comfortable.
 
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that’s only half the story, the welding machine has to be set right and I could tell by the crackle noise if it is right or wrong.

To bring things up a notch, if you can weld overhead, you know you’ve made it.:D

There is an old welders saying. The difference between a good and bad weld is making sure you are comfortable.
Absolutely Jim. A nice crisp crackle! I can do vertical and overhead neither looks great when I've finished though but does seem to hang together. I'd hesitate to say "I've made it" Overhead on cars is often accompanied by scalding hot blobs of underseal on arms and especially neck. Doesn't take long to learn to wear long sleeves and button your shirt right up! Can do a pretty neat job where gravity is helping though. Your "old welders saying" has a great deal of truth to it too and never more so than when you don't have experience and "feel".
 
Another interesting thread from Jock (y)

As I'm in Ireland, my experiences might not be so relevant but I'll throw in my tuppence anyway...

Like Jock, I started out using oxy-acetylene (gas) welding as an apprentice Mechanic and was trained in Technological College as well as receiving guidance from the experienced hands in the dealership where I worked, plus was afforded plenty of opportunity to practice (this is very important, as someone has pointed out).

Later, I invested in an air-cooled arc welder to do some bodywork repairs on my car at home - which was a total waste of money, just blew holes in everything.

So I then bought a BOC Portapak gas welding set which came with small gas bottles which I was told I owned for life, so only had to pay for refills. Later the rules were changed to no rental/account charges for the 1st 10 years.... So, I managed to 'borrow' full size bottles from someone with a welding/fabrication workshop and only had to reimburse him for the refill costs - brilliant. Later, as my friend had retired, I had to open an account with the gas cyl. suppliers so reverted to small cylinders as I was, by then, only welding occasionally. Because of cost/benefit, I later dropped the account. Recently I've heard that the gas suppliers agents (over here) won't open an account for anyone without a registered business address and vat number - I was told this is to prevent criminality (no lock is safe when there's a gas cutting torch about), although I suppose that one (if so inclined) could get up to mischief with a cordless angle grinder, and they're sold to anyone without any restrictions...

I've tried gasless mig but not on thin gauge car bodywork and found it quite good. I might give it a try on an old car body panel and see how I fare.

I'm unwilling to go the gas mig route due to the likely cost of gas cylinder refills and possibly an annual registration/account charge (bearing in mind that everything over here is much dearer...).

I've considered going with TIG for car bodywork but the same (or dearer, depending on type) gas costs etc. would apply and it's just not financially worth it to me for the small amount of work I might do. I have done some Tig welding on slightly thicker gauge material and found it excellent, but the material needs to be spotlessly clean/rustfree (the reverse side of old car bodywork won't be) and suitable equipment is pricey (professional welders have told me to avoid cheap equipment).

I recently bought an Inverter Welder - this is a very small unit that is supposed to be an improved version of the traditional arc welder, making it easier to start an arc as well as maintain it. I've tried it out on some 2mm steel sheet, plus some thicker material and it works well, except for it cutting out in order to cool off (very annoying). At the same time, I got some smaller welding rods and the 1.6 and 2.0 mm ones seem ideal for thinner sheet, I must try these out on some car body panel gauge steel and see how it works out.

Someone mentioned the nowadays typical scenario where some amateur decides to buy a cheap mig welder and 'repair' his car's bodywork. I'm sick and tired of seeing examples of 'welding' in car magazines such as Practical Classics or on tv shows such as Car SOS that are an abdominal disgrace - come on guys, if you're demonstrating techniques that amateurs might copy, you should be raising standards not lowering them as regards what is acceptable - my late dad (an experienced welder) had an apt description of such attempts at welding - 'like snots on a hob'.

Everyone dismisses Oxy-Acetylene gas welding as it 'causes too much distortion' - but the cause of much of this distortion is in the hands of the welder and there are ways of preventing too much heat soak e.g. specialist putty, asbestos? type blankets, wet rag etc., most important is 'taking your time'. No one mentions that with gas welding, you can go back over your weld and neaten things up or re-do a bit, welding, imho, should look nice. Plus the equipment can be used for so much more than just welding.

Talking of car mags, I recall many years ago, when cheap, diy type mig welders first arrived on the scene, that some people started using CO2 cylinders borrowed from the pub trade (I don't know if they asked permission first...), until the suppliers of such gas cylinders started including a percentage of some other gas that would mess up the welding process. I don't know if this story is true, does anyone know? I always thought that CO2 on it's own was fine for mig welding steel and you only needed an Argon mix when welding other types of metal - what does the Argon do?

Jock, the only suggestion I can offer, is that you try to find someone with a business that uses large quantities of the appropriate full-size gas cylinders (and therefore may have a bank of 'spares' on hand) and see if they'll 'loan' you one (some money may have to change hands) - just like I used to do to obtain oxygen and acetylene cylinders at affordable cost years ago.

Al.
 
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If I’m honest my welding days are pretty much over apart from the odd wee job that my family and I need. My son in law and I went Dutch on a welder recently mainly to weld up a ride on mower that he has. It was far cheaper to do buy the welder than him to get it repaired professionally. My old welder has seen better days and over the years had been lent out here and there to some of my son in laws friends, on reflection not a good idea, hey ho. MMA or manual metal arc is not really meant for car work, too fierce an arc, it can be used in the chassis though. As said the price of gas is not worth it if you just dabble. It all boils down to your situation and needs.

I do miss my welding days:cry: The craic and the wind ups :D and we still managed to get the jobs done.
 
Like Jock, I started out using oxy-acetylene (gas) welding as an apprentice Mechanic and was trained in Technological College as well as receiving guidance from the experienced hands in the dealership where I worked, plus was afforded plenty of opportunity to practice (this is very important, as someone has pointed out).

Later, I invested in an air-cooled arc welder to do some bodywork repairs on my car at home - which was a total waste of money, just blew holes in everything.

So I then bought a BOC Portapak gas welding set which came with small gas bottles. Because of cost/benefit, I later dropped the account.

I'm unwilling to go the gas mig route due to the likely cost of gas cylinder refills and possibly an annual registration/account charge (bearing in mind that everything over here is much dearer...).

I've considered going with TIG for car bodywork but the same (or dearer, depending on type) gas costs etc. would apply and it's just not financially worth it to me for the small amount of work I might do. I have done some Tig welding on slightly thicker gauge material and found it excellent, but the material needs to be spotlessly clean/rustfree (the reverse side of old car bodywork won't be) and suitable equipment is pricey (professional welders have told me to avoid cheap equipment).

I recently bought an Inverter Welder - this is a very small unit that is supposed to be an improved version of the traditional arc welder, making it easier to start an arc as well as maintain it. I've tried it out on some 2mm steel sheet, plus some thicker material and it works well, except for it cutting out in order to cool off (very annoying). At the same time, I got some smaller welding rods and the 1.6 and 2.0 mm ones seem ideal for thinner sheet, I must try these out on some car body panel gauge steel and see how it works out.

my late dad (an experienced welder) had an apt description of such attempts at welding - 'like snots on a hob'.

Everyone dismisses Oxy-Acetylene gas welding as it 'causes too much distortion' - but the cause of much of this distortion is in the hands of the welder and there are ways of preventing too much heat soak e.g. specialist putty, asbestos? type blankets, wet rag etc., most important is 'taking your time'. No one mentions that with gas welding, you can go back over your weld and neaten things up or re-do a bit, welding, imho, should look nice. Plus the equipment can be used for so much more than just welding.

Talking of car mags, I recall many years ago, when cheap, diy type mig welders first arrived on the scene, that some people started using CO2 cylinders borrowed from the pub trade (I don't know if they asked permission first...), until the suppliers of such gas cylinders started including a percentage of some other gas that would mess up the welding process. I don't know if this story is true, does anyone know? I always thought that CO2 on it's own was fine for mig welding steel and you only needed an Argon mix when welding other types of metal - what does the Argon do?

Jock, the only suggestion I can offer, is that you try to find someone with a business that uses large quantities of the appropriate full-size gas cylinders (and therefore may have a bank of 'spares' on hand) and see if they'll 'loan' you one (some money may have to change hands) - just like I used to do to obtain oxygen and acetylene cylinders at affordable cost years ago.

Al.
Sounds very much like our starts in the motor trade were very similar Al, as regards the welding anyway. My college gave me a very good grounding in gas and MMA (stick). Then I put it all on hold while I went off for a number of years to "play" with the race cars before coming back to the reality of workshop life. As you point out, although you need a sound grounding in the basics, it's practice, practice and more practice which will make a welder of you! A bit like the old army saying "even the best laid plan will not survive contact with the enemy".

I too then bought a small cheap MMA air cooled welder with which I tried to weld wings and patches into one of my old cars. Very quickly found that an inexperienced worker and a stick welder is good at doing only one thing, blowing lots of holes everywhere you try it! Completely fed up I gave up and stuck it under my workbench where it stayed until, years later, when I myself started teaching motor repair and maintenance, I made friends with the chap, at the same establishment, who taught pipe welding for the north sea. When I let slip one day about my experiences he plagued me mercilessly until I brought it in and showed it to him. He slagged me off rotten for buying such a heap of s**t but then started showing me, during tea and lunch breaks, what I could actually do with it. I remember my him describing my earlier attempts as resembling "chicken s**t" (one of his favourite words I was to discover) By the time we'd spent a couple of months together we became firm friends - in fact he now lives, retired like me, just half a dozen houses up our street and we are still firm friends. If I have the welder out as he's going by he will invariably shout some insult at me! The first thing I made for it was a trolley. Here's the welder on it's trolley:

P1090072.JPG

And here's one of the joints I made with it all those years ago. A bit rough, but still holding some 50 years later.

P1090082.JPG

Having now really "bonded" with it I know exactly what it excels at doing and I rarely burn anything except 2.5 rutile rods these days. It's running at around 2/3 to 3/4 max output with these so if you're doing something "serious" with it it will overheat. So I stripped the casing off. Installed a fan in the back:

P1090075.JPG

and blanked off the rear side louvres:

P1090077.JPG

So it takes air in through the front louvres which passes over the core and exits to the rear. Doesn't cut out any more now.

For most of my workshop life I've been a working shop foreman or instructor so I've always had access to gas plant I could "borrow" - never to take home though. When I started messing about with "Classic Cars" and old bikes more seriously at home I bought the MIG - and immediately made a trolley for it:

P1090296.JPG

And here's that cylinder which BOC want to relieve me of approx £70 a year to look after for them! I've put a disposable cylinder next to it for scale. You'll understand now how it's really a complete overkill for what I now use the welder for.

P1090302.JPG

At around this time I started training mechanics for my day job and also set up evening classes with Community Education in car maintenance. Quickly this went from one car maintenance class a week to three. One for beginners, one for women and one for the more serious learner who wanted to get "really dirty". Then the "serious" enthusiasts started asking about how to do welding for MOT repairs. That blossomed into a welding for beginners and another for returners. Demand was so great I would do the occasional 2 day weekend "special" too. I did the classes for around 10 years although I dropped the weekend classes quite quickly - they were just too taxing, remember I was doing a day job too! However the reason I am mentioning this is that I covered MMA, MIG/MAG, and Gas welding in the classes so I kitted myself out with a BOC portapac to cover the gas aspect. This was wonderful because it gave me gas for home use and the money I was making easily covered the cost. Eventually it all just got a bit much for me and I had to pack it all in. I couldn't justify the cost or risk of keeping the gas cylinders but I still have my regulators, hoses, torch etc. Have to say I think gas welding is a beautiful thing to do. Once you develop the skill with it it's so controllable and the end result is just so pleasing. The heat and controllability of the flame has so many other uses too.

I remember that "thing" with pub gas cylinders. Tried to find a pub who would "play ball" with me but they all refused. Maybe too many other people were trying too? So I only used maybe 2 disposable cylinders of CO2 before going with the BOC argoshield gas, which has the Argon. My recollection of using the pure CO2 is foggy but I think it was considerably more spattery and not so nice to control?

Thanks for the suggestion to try and find someone I could "borrow" cylinders from. I did briefly look into that without success but did get a few offers of help in other ways. However, as I live in quite high density housing I now think it's just too dodgy keeping oxy-acetylene bottles in the garage under my bedroom! So I'm really moderately happy working with the Stick and MIG. I think once I have the more manageable 10 litre cylinder I'll be "sorted".

TIG interests me a lot having seen some of the beautiful welds done on race cars with it but I think I'm now just too old to learn "new tricks" and anyway don't really have anything I need to do with it! Don't know much about inverters, but I saw a very neat looking unit in Aldi the other day. Just got this gut feeling though that you'ld need to buy a more expensive "big name" to get reliability - and what about spares I always wonder with these "unknown" supermarket brands? I had a lot of fun trying to get some lawnmower bits for a friend's supermarket purchased lawnmower recently.
 
Hi Jock,

Yes, we certainly seem to share similar experiences in our early years in the Motor Trade, and probably much the same for anyone who started out in the 1960's/'70's.

Thanks for the reminder (I saw your earlier post a while ago) about your fan installation on your MMA air-cooled welder. I had intended to do the same mod on mine but forgot about it when I bought the little Inverter Welder. What sort of fan did you use and where did you source it?

I, too, taught evening classes in a technical college for a few years - I found the practical classes quite nerve-wracking, trying to (repeat, trying to) keep control of a group of teenagers who always seemed to discover new ways of doing things incorrectly and potentially hurting themselves. The theory (classroom) sessions were a lot easier, my main problem was trying to keep the students from 'nodding-off', I do tend to drone on a bit...

I agree totally with your comment about the safety aspect of storing oxygen and acetylene cylinders. I recently saw one of those U.S tv programs about 'when things go wrong' - it showed a fire at a cylinder storage depot, the fire crews couldn't risk going anywhere near the blaze, there were cylinders going off like rockets in all directions, some landing on an adjacent highway, it was amazing how far these cylinders could travel. :eek:

I suspect you wouldn't have any difficulty in learning to use TIG, after all, you're familiar with MIG, so can start and maintain the arc, and your familiarity with gas welding means you're experienced with feeding in the filler rod appropriately. But, as you say, and as a couple of welding experts have cautioned me, you do ideally need to buy professional equipment - this level of equipment comes with various features/adjustments that are not found on cheaper equipment. I've also noticed that professional TIG welders in fabrication shops don't like anyone else using/messing with the settings, on 'their' equipment. The tungsten electrode needs to be kept sharp (there's a special grinding stone for this).

The little Inverter welder I bought was from Lidl but is likely very similar to what Aldi had for sale (they seems to mirror each other on many products especially car stuff). I might see if I can do your fan modification on my unit - when I tried welding some thickish metal, it frequently cut out, admittedly I had it turned up close to the max (= 80 amps). I'm always worried that if I'm causing it to cut-out frequently, i.e. I'm overheating it, I may cause it to fail totally. See pics below of what I was welding - the steering wheel failed on my ride-on lawnmower, the internal metal spokes had broken away from the central hub. Pease don't be too critical of my welds, they're not great, I was trying to avoid burning the adjacent foam rubber too much - had to keep stopping to spray water to extinguish the flames, cough, cough.

As well as the Inverter Welder, I finally invested in one those new-fangled Automatic (darkening) Welding Helmets with adjustable level of degree of darkness - well worth the money, makes striking an arc in exactly the right spot easy-peasy, as well as being able to adjust brightness level to suit ambient lighting, mine also has built-in LED lights for those situations when a little light on the workpiece is useful.

As regards obtaining spares for items of equipment purchased in these discount stores, my 1st port of call is either check the device handbook for the appointed service agent or give Aldi/Lidl a call to find out their service agent. In both of my experiences, they couldn't have been more helpful, even sent me the necessary parts free-of-charge to fit myself rather that put me through the kerfuffle of having to box up (in one case) a large item (air compressor) and return it to them for inspection. Couldn't ask for better customer service (y) As regards spares for 'el cheapo' lawnmowers, there's several parts suppliers in the U.K. that seem to cover pretty much all makes, or there's the internet and obtain the spares very cheaply from China e.g. new carb for a chainsaw c. £12.00. :)

Regards,

Al.
 

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Snap! Same Cebora 130 Turbo Mig Welder as I have. From what I worked out a little while ago it can take gas less flux cored wire but only the smaller diameter one.

Only difference between your's and mine is that mine lives in its original box in a back bedroom cupboard and one would think it has never been used except for the spatters on the torch head shield. :)
 
Thanks for the reminder (I saw your earlier post a while ago) about your fan installation on your MMA air-cooled welder. I had intended to do the same mod on mine but forgot about it when I bought the little Inverter Welder. What sort of fan did you use and where did you source it?

I, too, taught evening classes in a technical college for a few years - I found the practical classes quite nerve-wracking, trying to (repeat, trying to) keep control of a group of teenagers who always seemed to discover new ways of doing things incorrectly and potentially hurting themselves. The theory (classroom) sessions were a lot easier, my main problem was trying to keep the students from 'nodding-off', I do tend to drone on a bit...

I agree totally with your comment about the safety aspect of storing oxygen and acetylene cylinders. I recently saw one of those U.S tv programs about 'when things go wrong' - it showed a fire at a cylinder storage depot, the fire crews couldn't risk going anywhere near the blaze, there were cylinders going off like rockets in all directions, some landing on an adjacent highway, it was amazing how far these cylinders could travel. :eek:

The little Inverter welder I bought was from Lidl but is likely very similar to what Aldi had for sale (they seems to mirror each other on many products especially car stuff). I might see if I can do your fan modification on my unit - when I tried welding some thickish metal, it frequently cut out, admittedly I had it turned up close to the max (= 80 amps). I'm always worried that if I'm causing it to cut-out frequently, i.e. I'm overheating it, I may cause it to fail totally. See pics below of what I was welding - the steering wheel failed on my ride-on lawnmower, the internal metal spokes had broken away from the central hub. Pease don't be too critical of my welds, they're not great, I was trying to avoid burning the adjacent foam rubber too much - had to keep stopping to spray water to extinguish the flames, cough, cough.

As well as the Inverter Welder, I finally invested in one those new-fangled Automatic (darkening) Welding Helmets with adjustable level of degree of darkness - well worth the money, makes striking an arc in exactly the right spot easy-peasy, as well as being able to adjust brightness level to suit ambient lighting, mine also has built-in LED lights for those situations when a little light on the workpiece is useful.

As regards obtaining spares for items of equipment purchased in these discount stores, my 1st port of call is either check the device handbook for the appointed service agent or give Aldi/Lidl a call to find out their service agent. In both of my experiences, they couldn't have been more helpful, even sent me the necessary parts free-of-charge to fit myself rather that put me through the kerfuffle of having to box up (in one case) a large item (air compressor) and return it to them for inspection. Couldn't ask for better customer service (y) As regards spares for 'el cheapo' lawnmowers, there's several parts suppliers in the U.K. that seem to cover pretty much all makes, or there's the internet and obtain the spares very cheaply from China e.g. new carb for a chainsaw c. £12.00. :)

Regards,

Al.
Good morning Al, (I'm tempted to say "Top of the mornin"?)

I did post about that welder modification didn't I. The fan was given to me by my pal, 2 doors up, who works with Dell computers. We had no idea if it would move enough air but it was "available" so I tried it and it seems to work just fine. It's slightly quieter than the fan on the Cebora MIG. It's a 240 volt job so I just wired it into the power supply on the machine so it comes on as soon as you switch the wall socket on. I think I remember him saying it had come from a big commercial machine, maybe a server of some sort? I've just tried typing "240 volt flat cooling fans" into google and a whole lot of choices comes up, don't know if that helps?

The teaching "game" is great fun/challenging isn't it! My evening classes were community education supported (they paid me, supplied the premises and paid for my consumables) I had to supply my own programs which they vetted and approved and they allowed me to use their duplication machines to produce hand outs. (every session I ran had a complete set of handouts to go with it) I had to arrange for the hardware I needed as it wasn't possible to move "stuff" around between schools (I used school tech department workshops). All my students were adults and keen to learn - of course they had to pay course fees and you wouldn't be doing that and then messing about I suppose? - My Ladies car class was an absolute hoot.We covered all the really simple stuff like checking oil and coolant levels, looking at brake fluid levels, where to put the screen wash and how to mix it up from concentrate, checking and changing a wiper blade, etc. Considering at least half of each class didn't even know how to open the bonnet you can imagine the ability level I was dealing with. The most difficult thing we covered was how to change a wheel. maybe a third of each class would attempt it and a third would declare there and then that they were buying breakdown insurance next day! We all had a wonderful time and the class was always full of laughter. At least half of each class ended up in the pub at the end of the day - it was a really quite social occasion! The only "nasty" incident I had was when someone stole a bottle regulator from my beginners welding class. I never got it back. My day job was as a Skillcentre Instructor. Anyone remember the old government Skillcentres? The programs were excellent and the equipment supplied was extensive and of very good quality. The client base was a bit more problematic in that some were not very well motivated. However in the main I think It was a good scheme and I still know people I trained who are working in the trade. Because there were so many other trades all being taught on the same site it was a wonderful opportunity for someone such as myself to learn a lot about, for instance, bricklaying, plumbing, electrics, joinery, etc, etc. I've saved a fortune over the years with the skills I picked up there.

Because I was teaching basic welding techniques I was sent on a gasses safety course and I was really shocked by the first film they showed us. I decided that, in the event of an acetylene cylinder fire, as long as I could be sure all my people had been evacuated, I was just going to run away as fast and as far as I could. Especially as just over the back fence from my main workshop door there were two enormous bulk liquified gas tanks belonging to the local supplier. I've never actually heard of anyone I know having a cylinder fire but I have heard of a couple of occasions of oxygen cylinders being knocked over and their gas taps being sheared off. Apparently they make very effective torpedoes!

Your comments about small machine capacity (and consequent proclivity to over heating and cutting out) became very apparent to me with machines people would turn up with at the evening classes. Quite a few people would turn up with 90 amp MMA machines because they thought that the low amperage would be better for welding thin material. The truth of the matter is, of course, they are really no better than the bigger machines, usually harder to get an arc stuck with due to low open circuit voltage and still blow holes just as well. Then when you tackle something thick enough to realistically weld the poor thing is operating right at the top end of it's envelope so rapidly overheats and promptly cuts out! Takes a long time for them to cool down too doesn't it? Do the inverteter machines cool any quicker? Don't beat yourself up over the quality of that weld. Looks like good enough penetration to me and achieved in very difficult circumstances. You really do have to wonder about the design of some of the things you run into these days. I had a similar problem with the steering wheel on my grandsons (not inexpensive) electric ride in mini car. Steering wheel broke off, luckily when he was getting out of the car and not when he was driving it! I had similar problems trying to weld it back on without ruining the plastic.

Automatic darkening helmet? been promising myself one for years! does it use batteries and so you need to be always changing them? I'd probably buy one from Machine Mart who are 20 mins drive away, what make is yours?

Haven't had any experience of Aldi/Lidl technical help but they were very good at exchanging an 18 volt electric drill which packed in after I had considerably abused it by using it continuously for a week when refurbishing my boy's first flat. I can however recommend UKHS (UK Home Shopping). They have a very interesting website if you've not heard of them. I bought their Dakota 3hp 90 litre belt driven air compressor from them and got a bit involved when it arrived with a bent compressor pulley. They offered to replace the entire compressor and when I said I'd be happy with a new pulley (the old one was only slightly bent but being ally I didn't want to weaken it by trying to straighten it) They sent it within 24 hours. I rang to thank them and found out they have a most extensive spares operation for everything they sell. I'm very impressed and will probably buy more from them in future. In fact Car Mechanics Mag gave them a pretty favourable report in one of their recent features too. Never tried any of the Chinese "stuff" but "made in China" no longer equates to "poor quality" any more does it. I'm tempted by the Hantek automotive oscilloscopes: http://www.hantek.com/en/ProductList_1_13.html But too frightened of the prospect of asking a technical question of someone who's native language is chinese!

Strewth, that was some post wasn't it? I think you and I will have to compete for the prize for "longest post" Al.

Kindest regards and stay safe
Jock
 
Good morning Al, (I'm tempted to say "Top of the mornin"?)

I did post about that welder modification didn't I. The fan was given to me by my pal, 2 doors up, who works with Dell computers. We had no idea if it would move enough air but it was "available" so I tried it and it seems to work just fine. It's slightly quieter than the fan on the Cebora MIG. It's a 240 volt job so I just wired it into the power supply on the machine so it comes on as soon as you switch the wall socket on. I think I remember him saying it had come from a big commercial machine, maybe a server of some sort? I've just tried typing "240 volt flat cooling fans" into google and a whole lot of choices comes up, don't know if that helps?

The teaching "game" is great fun/challenging isn't it! My evening classes were community education supported (they paid me, supplied the premises and paid for my consumables) I had to supply my own programs which they vetted and approved and they allowed me to use their duplication machines to produce hand outs. (every session I ran had a complete set of handouts to go with it) I had to arrange for the hardware I needed as it wasn't possible to move "stuff" around between schools (I used school tech department workshops). All my students were adults and keen to learn - of course they had to pay course fees and you wouldn't be doing that and then messing about I suppose? - My Ladies car class was an absolute hoot.We covered all the really simple stuff like checking oil and coolant levels, looking at brake fluid levels, where to put the screen wash and how to mix it up from concentrate, checking and changing a wiper blade, etc. Considering at least half of each class didn't even know how to open the bonnet you can imagine the ability level I was dealing with. The most difficult thing we covered was how to change a wheel. maybe a third of each class would attempt it and a third would declare there and then that they were buying breakdown insurance next day! We all had a wonderful time and the class was always full of laughter. At least half of each class ended up in the pub at the end of the day - it was a really quite social occasion! The only "nasty" incident I had was when someone stole a bottle regulator from my beginners welding class. I never got it back. My day job was as a Skillcentre Instructor. Anyone remember the old government Skillcentres? The programs were excellent and the equipment supplied was extensive and of very good quality. The client base was a bit more problematic in that some were not very well motivated. However in the main I think It was a good scheme and I still know people I trained who are working in the trade. Because there were so many other trades all being taught on the same site it was a wonderful opportunity for someone such as myself to learn a lot about, for instance, bricklaying, plumbing, electrics, joinery, etc, etc. I've saved a fortune over the years with the skills I picked up there.

Because I was teaching basic welding techniques I was sent on a gasses safety course and I was really shocked by the first film they showed us. I decided that, in the event of an acetylene cylinder fire, as long as I could be sure all my people had been evacuated, I was just going to run away as fast and as far as I could. Especially as just over the back fence from my main workshop door there were two enormous bulk liquified gas tanks belonging to the local supplier. I've never actually heard of anyone I know having a cylinder fire but I have heard of a couple of occasions of oxygen cylinders being knocked over and their gas taps being sheared off. Apparently they make very effective torpedoes!

Your comments about small machine capacity (and consequent proclivity to over heating and cutting out) became very apparent to me with machines people would turn up with at the evening classes. Quite a few people would turn up with 90 amp MMA machines because they thought that the low amperage would be better for welding thin material. The truth of the matter is, of course, they are really no better than the bigger machines, usually harder to get an arc stuck with due to low open circuit voltage and still blow holes just as well. Then when you tackle something thick enough to realistically weld the poor thing is operating right at the top end of it's envelope so rapidly overheats and promptly cuts out! Takes a long time for them to cool down too doesn't it? Do the inverteter machines cool any quicker? Don't beat yourself up over the quality of that weld. Looks like good enough penetration to me and achieved in very difficult circumstances. You really do have to wonder about the design of some of the things you run into these days. I had a similar problem with the steering wheel on my grandsons (not inexpensive) electric ride in mini car. Steering wheel broke off, luckily when he was getting out of the car and not when he was driving it! I had similar problems trying to weld it back on without ruining the plastic.

Automatic darkening helmet? been promising myself one for years! does it use batteries and so you need to be always changing them? I'd probably buy one from Machine Mart who are 20 mins drive away, what make is yours?

Haven't had any experience of Aldi/Lidl technical help but they were very good at exchanging an 18 volt electric drill which packed in after I had considerably abused it by using it continuously for a week when refurbishing my boy's first flat. I can however recommend UKHS (UK Home Shopping). They have a very interesting website if you've not heard of them. I bought their Dakota 3hp 90 litre belt driven air compressor from them and got a bit involved when it arrived with a bent compressor pulley. They offered to replace the entire compressor and when I said I'd be happy with a new pulley (the old one was only slightly bent but being ally I didn't want to weaken it by trying to straighten it) They sent it within 24 hours. I rang to thank them and found out they have a most extensive spares operation for everything they sell. I'm very impressed and will probably buy more from them in future. In fact Car Mechanics Mag gave them a pretty favourable report in one of their recent features too. Never tried any of the Chinese "stuff" but "made in China" no longer equates to "poor quality" any more does it. I'm tempted by the Hantek automotive oscilloscopes: http://www.hantek.com/en/ProductList_1_13.html But too frightened of the prospect of asking a technical question of someone who's native language is chinese!

Strewth, that was some post wasn't it? I think you and I will have to compete for the prize for "longest post" Al.

Kindest regards and stay safe
Jock

Hi Jock,

I enclose a couple of pages from the manual accompanying my new little Inverter Welder. If you compare the 'machine' with the earth clamp, or indeed the face shield, you'll see just how compact the device is!

There is a fan shown in the circuit diagrams, (follow the red arrow pointing to 'CN1 Fan'), sure seems to be a lot of diodes in there as well! Maybe my welder cuts-out to protect the electronics rather than the transformer as I believe is the case with normal MMA arc welders.

The no-load voltage is 68V. and the welding current/voltage varies from 10A/20.4V to 80A/23.2V. I chose this unit as I thought it might work well on thin gauge steel using the smaller rods (1.6, 2.0mm) that were for sale at the same time.

The only indication of c.o.o. is - C.M.C. Gmbh with an address in Germany, but I suspect this is only an import co. not a manufacturer (Lidl often do this). It carries the 'Parkside' brand name that Lidl use on many of it's tools.

The Auto-Darkening Welding Helmet I got at the same time has the same co. name as the inverter welder, again it's branded 'Parkside' (i.e. Lidl). It uses a Solar Cell (Photo-Voltaic cell?)to operate the auto-darkening system so no batteries are needed in normal use. However, there are 2 x AAA batteries fitted, which power the LED light if required e.g. to provide some illumination when working in dark conditions -if these run down, they won't affect the auto-darkening feature. 2 points I noticed in the manual - 1) it's not suitable for gas welding, 2) the service life is approx. 6 years, even if stored!

I had bought another auto-darkening welding helmet several years ago, put it away and forgot I had it, had never used it . When I found and tried it recently, it was totally defunct, it doesn't have any batteries either (no led light incorporated) - so batteries running down is not the main issue with these types of welding helmets...

Jock, I always enjoy your posts (the longer the better!), and appreciate the time, thought and effort you put into them, also your very clear photos.

As always, my best regards,

Al.
 

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Hi Jock,

I enclose a couple of pages from the manual accompanying my new little Inverter Welder. If you compare the 'machine' with the earth clamp, or indeed the face shield, you'll see just how compact the device is!

There is a fan shown in the circuit diagrams, (follow the red arrow pointing to 'CN1 Fan'), sure seems to be a lot of diodes in there as well! Maybe my welder cuts-out to protect the electronics rather than the transformer as I believe is the case with normal MMA arc welders.

The no-load voltage is 68V. and the welding current/voltage varies from 10A/20.4V to 80A/23.2V. I chose this unit as I thought it might work well on thin gauge steel using the smaller rods (1.6, 2.0mm) that were for sale at the same time.

The only indication of c.o.o. is - C.M.C. Gmbh with an address in Germany, but I suspect this is only an import co. not a manufacturer (Lidl often do this). It carries the 'Parkside' brand name that Lidl use on many of it's tools.

The Auto-Darkening Welding Helmet I got at the same time has the same co. name as the inverter welder, again it's branded 'Parkside' (i.e. Lidl). It uses a Solar Cell (Photo-Voltaic cell?)to operate the auto-darkening system so no batteries are needed in normal use. However, there are 2 x AAA batteries fitted, which power the LED light if required e.g. to provide some illumination when working in dark conditions -if these run down, they won't affect the auto-darkening feature. 2 points I noticed in the manual - 1) it's not suitable for gas welding, 2) the service life is approx. 6 years, even if stored!

I had bought another auto-darkening welding helmet several years ago, put it away and forgot I had it, had never used it . When I found and tried it recently, it was totally defunct, it doesn't have any batteries either (no led light incorporated) - so batteries running down is not the main issue with these types of welding helmets...

Jock, I always enjoy your posts (the longer the better!), and appreciate the time, thought and effort you put into them, also your very clear photos.

As always, my best regards,

Al.
'Morning Al, Thanks for your king words regarding my posts. Likewise I'm really enjoying what you have to say, please do continue.

I think I remember seeing your welder on the shelves in our local Lidl. I came across this video which I think depicts it?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rh0G2NRhuM0

68 volts open circuit is quite respectable, I would imagine it's not too difficult to get the arc struck with that? The result on that very thick beam seems to show impressive penetration for such a small device. Perhaps I shouldn't be surprised though, technology is moving on all the time. I remember being rather surprised at how small and light my CTEK charger is when compared to my ancient Crypton. Looks like, from the circuit diagram, lots of "stuff" which could burn out/fail when compared to my prehistoric SIP Topweld. Mind you the MIG is a little like that with lots more to go wrong. I get on just fine with the SIP though so, on the basis of "the devil you know" I'm very happy to just carry on with it. Wonder if the inverter uses less electricity?

As regards the thermal cut out on the old SIP, here's a picture of it - the wee black plastic thing sitting on top of the main windings:

P1090074.JPG

As can be seen there's really nothing other than windings! But the sheer bulk of those windings explains why it takes so long to cool down if it overheats. I've messed about with the wee 1.6 rods quite a bit - I bought a whole pack from NIA when they had a shop in Edinburgh and still have half of them left because I came to the conclusion that the Stick welder is best used on heavier stuff. I use it probably more than the MIG because now a days I'm welding up cracked chassis on vintage cultivators/mowers/trailers and that sort of stuff. I used the Mig not so long ago to weld up a cracked pedal cluster bracket on the old Panda and to repair the clutch pedal on my old Seat Cordoba Both were quite delicate jobs much like your steering wheel repair where the stick machine would have been far to aggressive/uncontrollable. So, horses for courses I suppose?

I find your comments on the auto darkening helmet life very interesting. I've seen them in Lidl more than once and Machine Mart sell them too. I've been meaning to look at the MM versions because I find their spares support very good but I had this vague perception swimming around in the chaos that is my mind these days, that they needed batteries replaced and that they could stop working. I must have read something somewhere about it? I like the idea of not having to flip the shield down before striking the arc. However I've been doing that for years now and I have a "proper" hinged helmet, so I think I'll put that aquiring one on the back burner for now.

I was rereading my post before replying here and found myself reflecting upon what a different world it is today. What made me think this in particular was when I mentioned above about how much I had learned from the other trades at the centre where I taught. I was not at all academic in school preferring the metalwork and woodwork classes, running the school cinema and going on excercises with the Army Cadets. I left school with a handful of "O" levels and little else. It was when I went to college and did my City and Guilds where I really woke up (I got credit and distinction in just about all of them - what a difference, but I was enjoying myself) In my opinion there is today far too much concentration on academic achievement. Everyone seems to be expected to go to "uni" Goodness knows where I would have ended up in today's system? I achieved good City and Guilds Qualifications and then picked up lots of other practical skills as my life went on so, although I'm not by any measure a "high earner" I rarely have to pay anyone to come and "fix" something for me so get to keep enough of my earnings to live a "comfortable life". It's my perception that it's when you have to employ people to "fix stuff" for you that the money starts flying out the door. I look at my children - now grown up with their own families - and their friends and none of them, with the possible exception of my youngest boy, can turn their hands to "fixing" things (and they have no desire to either) so they either just "buy a new one" and throw the old one away or pay lots of money for someone to do the "fixing". Consequently they are moderately impoverished. A very changed world isn't it?

Phwoore! was that a bit "heavy" folks? Sorry if it was. Anyway, stay safe all.
regards
Jock
 
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