Hello from Guinea/Sierra Leone, West Africa. Out hère, off-roading is not a hobby. It's an unavoidable reality that drivers must contend with as soon as thé ignition is switched on.

Recently acquired a 2003 Fiat Ducato 2.0 11JTD intended for taxi/ minibus services. Gave it a very necessary 1" lift by mounting rubber discs (cut from worn freight truck tires) over thé strut plates. No other compensatory modifications have been made to thé CV, control arms, etc etc. Immediately noticed a diminished power steering input. More muscular effort is now required Of me to steer thé véhicle. Is this a normal / an expected post lift problèm? Can a 1" lift place undue stress on thé power steering system, eventually causing it to fail? Is It possible to isolate or deactivate thé power steering system and rely exclusively on manual steering thereby preventing damage to délicate parts? Can thé power steering fluid réservoir be slightly filled above thé max line in hopes Of increasing system pressure as compensation for what i suspect is undue stress on thé power steering caused by thé 1" lift?

Thank you for your insights.

Fama Marah (Newbie on thé forum)

Hi and welcome

Changing fluid level..? No efffect

I suspect yourchanging of geometry may have found a stiff part of a components arc of movement.

Possibly in thefront suspension

Charlie

Thank you Charlie. Would you say it's best to undo thé lift to avoid component damage. Without thé lift, i risk cracking thé aluminium oïl pan at any moment. But if thé cost Of thé parts stressed By thé lift exceed thé cost Of an oil pan, then i better get back down to stock ride level, which unfortunately is too low for thé local terrain

Not exactly.

Carefully go back through the components..

I suspect something is failing.. and the changes have highlighted the issue

FamaMarah said:

Recently acquired a 2003 Fiat Ducato 2.0 11JTD intended for taxi/ minibus services. Gave it a very necessary 1" lift by mounting rubber discs (cut from worn freight truck tires) over thé strut plates.

Click to expand...

Hello Fama, welcome to the forum.

I think Charlie is probably heading in the right direction with his post. I doubt if a one inch hike in ride height alone would cause your problem if the vehicle were new but your's has seen a bit of life hasn't it? so all it's moving bits will have become used to running at that ride height and corrosion may have built up in certain areas which, now your static height is one inch higher, may be rubbing in some way?

I would like to ask exactly where did you locate the rubber discs? Is it possible that, with the suspension under load, the rubber may be rubbing against the top of the struts - top spring mountings - That would make it harder to turn the steering and might not be so obvious with the vehicle jacked up. As this is the only mod you've made my money would be on it being linked to this in some way.

Another factor that may be worth thinking about is that if you raise (or for that matter lower) the static ride height of any vehicle you may experience "strange effects" due to bump steer and changed camber etc angles. Mostly you would notice these "strange effects" as the vehicle tending to dart off line when going over road bumps and undulations. You should consider also that drive shaft joints may wear rapidly and, possibly, wheel bearings.

Can you take a picture of the modification you've done? Some one may be able to make more suggestions/recommendations as a result of seeing it.

Good luck with it. Do please keep us informed as to how you get on won't you.
regards
Jock

Thank you Jock, Charlie and all who replied. You identified thé problem in your second paragraph. It had to do with thé top mount assembly. Thé ruber discs themselves are not causing any problèms. Instead, it's thé longer top mount bolts they necessitated. Knew i had to use longer bolts to compensate for thé height Of thé discs/lift. But i overcompensated - thé bolts proved too long and were rubbing against thé top spring seats/plates. This rubbing or friction provided résistance to thé steering. I was lucky to have immediately sensed it and parked thé Ducato. Otherwise, it could have blown thé power steering pump or worse. I am actually amazed at how powerful that pump must be. It actually provided enough force to bend one Of thé bolts just so that it could do its job Of steering thé véhicle. And even after such a momentary strain, thé power steering is now functioning as good as it ever was.

Thank you so much guys. Happy to be part Of this very informative community. Mâkes owning a Fiat all the more interesting.you will have to excuse my french keyboard characters haha

Charlie's "arc Of movement" comment was equally helpful. Relative to thé top mount bolts, thé strut assembly does pivot along an arc like path. Thé overly long bolt did trace an arc on thé spring seat before bending away.

Je vous en prie

As Charlie has said, raising the fluid level is not a good idea, the system will either blow the excess oil out through the cap vent (if fitted?) or might blow a seal in the steering assembly.

Given the age of your vehicle, it's possible the springs have sagged due to age/mileage, the 1 inch lift might just be restoring the ride height to what it was when new. Some metal fabrication shops/blacksmiths workshop might know how to re-temper and reset your springs back to virtually new condition/ride height - this is commonly done to truck leaf springs, but the technique is very similar.

Fabricating a sump guard might be the best way of protecting your alloy sump? Might also be the most cost effective solution.

One way of raising ride height would be to fit larger diameter wheels and tyres of a higher profile (e.g. 100% or 80% if available). Maybe someone has fitted smaller wheels in the past?

Sometimes vehicles use different diameter wheels with increasingly lower profile tyres, as the wheel diameter increases so the rolling radius stays the same. So if you go for e.g 17 inch wheels but fit the highest profile (a.k.a. aspect ratio) you get the highest ride height, it won't be big difference, maybe 1 inch or so - just be careful the larger wheel tyre combination doesn't foul/catch on anything. Your speedo reading will be affected (i.e. reading slower than your true speed). As your's is a Ducato, I'm guessing you're running van or commercial type tyres, these generally have a high profile anyway. (i.e. a tall sidewall).

Another way of raising ride height is to move the bottom spring mount on the suspension strut but this may reduce shock travel and would involve some cutting and re-welding. If you look up ' adjustable ride height suspension' you may find illustrations of front suspension struts which have adjustable, threaded lower spring mountings - these are usually fitted to race/rally/ hi performance cars. Might give you some ideas for the future.
Another option would be to fabricate some sort of spacer, preferably metal, shaped to provide a seat for the spring and fit it below the spring.

Re:- changing to manual steering if you have a problem in the future. If you temporarily remove the belt that drives the power steering pump and drive the vehicle, you'll no longer have power steering and can see if it would be too heavy to manage. Often when a model is changed from manual to power steering ,the manufacturer alters the gearing (steering turns lock-to-lock), because it now easier to turn, the gearing can be raised (less turns lock-to-lock) for quicker steering. As the Ducato has been around for so long, it's possible that an earlier model or a model for a different market was fitted with manual steering, so might be able to be retro-fitted with manual steering if you needed to in the future, but if you do so, be prepared for much heavier steering.

Just a few thoughts for you to consider for the future, now that you seem to have solved the heavy steering problem. I do think that maybe fitting a metal sump guard would the best and most cost effective protection for your alloy sump.

Regards,

Al.

Hello Al, thank you for taking thé time to compile such a detailed guide. As you and Jock pointed out, my ducato (2003) is pretty old. Thankfully thé previous Owner in italy maintained it very well and it's considered to be in mint condition by local standards. Nevertheless, i suspect i will be making frequent reference to your comments in thé months/ weeks ahead as i try to reinforce thé vehicle to withstand thé beating it will take from poor roads and thé african heat/ sun.

I must admit that i wont be having access to thé best after market parts. Local banks dont offer thé sort of crédit cards that might permit one to purchase items from ebay, amazon etc. Even if such cards were to be made available, our local currency (leones) trade at several thousand units to thé euro or thé dollar, such that it is cost prohibitive to buy and ship refined after market mod parts from beyond thé Atlantic. We must rely on local technology and innovation which can be regrettably crude sometimes. Thé rubber discs from worn freight truck tires is a case in point. I cut those out myself with an extremely sharp blade.

And yes thé 1" lift seemed to have restored thé ride height to thé original factory level. I support this observation because thé handling has improved tremendously since thé top mount bolt issue was resolved. Whereas most post lift forums i consulted feature complaints about handling, my ducato 2.0 jtd now drives remarkably straight. Prior to thé lift, it had a slight bias or pull to thé left. So it's very likely that my strut assemblies were sagging or sub optimal in someway. I may have to sée to this in a short while as i dont think thé rubber lift is a durable remedy.

Thank you as well for thé "dos and donts" regarding thé steering and thé sump. In anticipation Of imminent repairs given thé vehicle's âge, local weather and road conditions, i do have a few more questions that i hope you and anyone who reads this may shed light upon.

1. Why is my ducato's steering column or rod so thin? It inspires no confidence at all. Looks like it could snap or break at anytime. Thé compétition for minibus vehicles that ducato, boxer and jumper face hère is posed By Mercedes Benz's MB100. It has a much heftier steering column, By appearance at least - i cant tell whether what i sée is a hollow tube that houses a solid rod Of comparable grade to thé ducato's steering column.

Is removing or blanking thé egr a good idéa? Thé engine shut down on me a couple Of times, one on an uphill incline. Online research points to egr or fuel pump.

Local mechanics never miss an opportunity to tell me i must remove thé thermostat to avoid overheating. They say this because our average températures hère are much higher than those in Europe or north America. I haven't had any overheating problems yet and i don't want to fiddle too much with my engine.

I remain grateful for your insights.

Hello Fama. My youngest brother, unfortunately claimed by cancer a few years ago, was a Pumps and Generators engineer (must be something in the family genes - my daughter is a civil engineer). He did a lot of business in Africa, especially Nigeria but other countries too. He held you guys in high regard for your ability to find engineering solutions where little in the way of resources or equipment is available. Sounds to me like you and he would have got on well together.

Al's suggestion of fabricating a sump guard sounds to me like a good idea and something you should have the resources to achieve. Jolly well done fella! all good luck to you in the future.
regards
Jock

Hi, Fama,

Thanks for your reply.

I can fully understand the difficulty/cost in obtaining parts from abroad. (I worked as a volunteer in Djibouti, N.E Africa for a while in the 1980's setting up and running a training workshop for refugees/locals) - so am familiar with extreme poverty and the severe limitations/restrictions it imposes on people. Here In Ireland, we have to import all our vehicle parts, supplies, tools etc. But although most here, who work on older vehicles, would be the poorer in our society, at least we can in many cases manage to buy such exotic costly items such as adjustable suspension set-ups on the second-hand market when the affluent 1st owners have finished with them.

My reason for mentioning the 'adjustable suspension struts' was to give you a term to search for on the internet, so that you could look at an image of these and perhaps give you some idea on how you could incorporate some adjustability into your existing front struts lower spring mounting should you decide to alter their position by cutting and rewelding them. One thought I had was to use heavy threaded tube slipped over the strut body - one possible source of such threaded tube would be from adjustable builder's scaffolding or props - take a look at the adjustable thread on www.acrow.co.nz/props/acrow-props (for reference, these 'Acrow props' have a 60.3mm outside diameter rolled thread)
But on further thought, this might not be such a good idea as it might result in spring binding if they have already sagged a bit.

RE :- the steering column seeming a bit 'flimsy'. Many such items are designed to bend/fail in the event of a severe collision in order to reduce injuries to the driver. These items will have been exhaustively tested by the manufacturer and shouldn't fail in normal use providing any universal joints/rubber couplings are checked/maintained/replaced if worn and that any clamps are kept tight. I'd be guided by local drivers and mechanics of your type of vehicle as to whether or not this steering column/shaft is reliable under local road and operating conditions. (In Djibouti e.g. away from the main roads, most roads were just tracks often rock-strewn and corrugated by heavy traffic - these conditions were very hard on vehicles incl. normally sturdy 4WD jeeps would be shaken apart and required a lot of additional checks/maintenance).

I'd stick with the original steering column unless locals tell me otherwise. You might check that this item fitted to your Italian import vehicle is the same as other Ducatos used locally - sometimes manufacturer's fit different parts to some areas of a vehicle to suit local conditions e.g. oil-bath air cleaner for dusty markets vs paper element for everywhere else.

I don't know a lot about EGR's. I've heard that in many cases they can be removed, stripped and cleaned using a powerful solvent/cleaner (i.e. something that can dissolve carbon). Afaik, the function of the EGR system is to improve exhaust emissions. Some say it's blanking off/removal will boost power a little. But the process of injecting some exhaust back into the cylinder has the effect of lowering peak cylinder temperatures also. This has a potentially protective effect on the engine. Given that your vehicle is a bit older, As long as the EGR is not choked-up/stuck open, I'd leave it in place to do it's job. Again be guided by local owners/mechanics but be careful of advice from others who don't understand how the part works or is supposed to work or those who just 'follow the herd' doing something because everyone else does it (without knowing why or the possible consequences).

Re:- Thermostat removal - as recommended by all local mechanics...…
The main function of the thermostat is to allow the engine to warm up quicker and allow the heating/demister to work sooner. In your hot climate, the engine may need little warming up and the heater/demister might not be needed. (I do know from experience working in the Middle East, that it can get very cold in deserts at night...). A quick warm up of the engine to normal operating temperature can save a little on fuel and may also reduce engine wear.

As long as the thermostat is working normally I'd leave it in place but I would check that there are no leaks/impending leaks anywhere in the cooling system, that the water pump is in good condition (no signs of leakage and the drive belt is in good condition/correctly tensioned (many modern engines use the engine timing belt to also drive the water pump, - I'm not sure what's on the Ducato). If plain water is used instead of an anti-freeze mixture, this will boil at a lower temperature and also allow corrosion/scale to build up in the coolant system resulting in reduced flow and therefore reduced cooling, both of which can result in overheating.

Most important maintenance item in the cooling system is probably the radiator. It must be kept leak free, clean inside (i.e. good flow) and clean on the OUTSIDE i.e. free of dust/sand/mud/leaves (shine a light/torch through the fins to check) and nothing in the way of good airflow through it's cooling fins. Some fit spot/driving lamps in front of the radiator grill, some mount airhorns etc, some mount the front registration/licence plate in front of the rad. grill, in deserts, some hang water bags/containers in front, some mount placards/flags etc in front during elections/celebrations etc. all big no-no's if you want your vehicle to keep it's cool. Also, running the air conditioner, if fitted, will tend to push up engine temp.

I'd leave the thermostat in place if it's working normally, just keep an eye on any water temperature gauge/warning light whenever driving conditions are extremely hot/ climbing hills/ stuck in traffic etc. Never be tempted to drive if the cooling system is overheating - stop as soon as it's safe, allow to cool down naturally, don't top up the system until cooled down - adding cool water to an overheated system can do major damage.

The cooling system on your Ducato is a sealed system. This is designed to build up pressure in use. To do this, the system must be free of leaks and the pressure cap fitted must be in good condition. Running the cooling system under pressure raises the temp. at which the coolant boils and turns to steam. The use of anti-freeze raises the boiling point compared to plain water.

It's also possible to use what is referred to as 'waterless coolant' this prevents corrosion/rust in the system, only turns to steam at 180 degrees C. compared to 100* C. for water and maybe 110*C. for normal water/anti-freeze mixture. For info on waterless coolant, plus some additional info on cooling systems see www.evanscoolants.co.uk

And No!, I'm not suggesting you try to get hold of or use this stuff - it's very, very, pricey, even over here - it also requires the use of a pricey preparation fluid, no leaks to be present and can't be topped up with anything else other the same coolant, certainly not water, otherwise it's beneficial effects are lost. I've never used this stuff!

So, to summarize, my recommendations would be to :-

Leave the steering column standard unless it has given trouble on local vehicles of the same type.

Leave the EGR system in place if it's working normally. Might be worth investigating if it can be cleaned out.

Thermostat - Leave in place unless you're having problems, but worth checking over the cooling system as described above, especially keeping the outside of the radiator fins clean/clear. If your Ducato was built for the Italian market, it's cooling system would have been designed to cope comfortably with temperature up to at least the low +40*C (the max? temp in Italy in summer) so hopefully will be fine for use in your country.

Regards,

Al.

Hi Fama,

In case you didn't know, there's actually a section for the Fiat Ducato which can be selected if you go into the Forums section at the top of the page and then scroll down, it's in the Commercials section near the bottom of the list of models.

You might get more people responding who are familiar with the Ducato in this section.

Regards,

Al.

Wow Al, fantastic post! Can't think of anything much to add!

Regarding the EGR I too subscribe to the opinion that leaving them alone to do their designed job is for the best. After all the ECU won't know you've removed it so you may get error codes posted and possibly experience running problems - unless you know a clever person with some sophisticated gear who can "tell" the ECU that it's not there any more! I have heard of people fitting restrictor plates to reduce the flow of exhaust gas with success, but personally I've never tried it. I removed the one on my old Cordoba at about 80,000 miles and it was totally blocked - cleaned up ok though. It's often quite easy to remove them (Although the 1.6CR Fabia my boy had disproved that. Never worked on a Ducato though) although corroded fittings on older vehicles are common. If you do so, and find it clogged up with carbon, oven cleaner (I pinch Mrs J's Mr Muscle) works very well to dissolve it. You have to leave it on to work on it for a few minutes before cleaning off and a second application is often necessary but don't leave it on overnight as it will eat into the aluminium (I try to keep it off plastic parts too). I've also used the oven cleaner on my boy's old PD engined Fabia. It had a variable vane turbo on which the variable vanes were seized due to carbon build up. Just dropped the exhaust, leaving the turbo in place, and sprayed the cleaner into the turbo. Used a stiff bottle brush to stir it about. Did it 3 times and all was well for the next 2 years until he sold it.

The other thought I had was about the thermostat. I again agree with you that it should be left in place. If it's working correctly I really can't see it causing overheating - that would be more likely down to a poor radiator or slow flow due to debris in the system. With modern ecu controlled engines it's important for the engine to run at it's designed temperature to perform at their best. As most people know the thermostat will give a rapid warm up due to it stopping water circulation through the rad, allowing it to only circulate through the engine block/heater matrix until it's up to temp. Then it "floats about" opening more and less, as needed to maintain the design temp by allowing more or less "cold" water from the radiator to mix with the water circulating through the block/heater matrix. Fueling and other aspects will only be optimized at correct temp so, fuel consumption in particular, will be optimized at correct design temp. Failed thermostats are common so if you are unsure about yours it would probably not hurt to just fit a new one - Personally I would always fit a "big name" product manufactured to OE quality. "Cheepies", in my experience, are more trouble than they're worth.

Kindest regards to all
Jock