Evening all, I'm hoping someone can help please. I need to change the rear discs on my 2010 500 1.4 lounge as one is warped however I have got as far as every part loose apart from the top caliper carrier bolt. I struggled to get the Allen key bit in due to the internal hex being corroded and damaged. I did try tapping it in with a hammer to get better contact but to no avail. I've since tried undoing it but it is gradually rounding off the inside of the allen bolt. I was wondering if anyone has any ideas how I could remove it please. Many thanks
Brake caliper carrier allen bolt seized and rounded
- Thread starter m33ksy
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Brake caliper carrier allen bolt seized and rounded
llamallama
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If there's enough room, you could try using a pair of vice grips to grab the head of the bolt
Why has the carrier bolt got thread lock on?
It really isn't required in this situation they only need to be torqued up sufficiently
Anyway can you get a bigger Allen key in?
Or alternatively a socket on the outside if they have a hec head?
llamallama
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Could you get a picture,
Also if you can get the vice grips on super tight, -- for more leverage grab yourself a steel tube, say 600mm or so and put it over the viceys
Also if you can get the vice grips on super tight, -- for more leverage grab yourself a steel tube, say 600mm or so and put it over the viceys
I've been out of the loop for a few days sorting out my laptop which I thought might have "caught a cold", so sorry for the some what belated entry here. Yup, a picture would be helpful for those of us who don't have a 500 with disc rears. I've had a look at some online images and it looks as if access to the carrier Allen bolts is good once the caliper itself is out of the way.
If the hex is damaged too much to be able to get a good purchase you might get it with an EZout but not everyone has one of those and if the bolt is super tight there's always the chance of just snapping it. Being an Allen bolt the big problem with more DIY efforts is that the head is round on the outside so there's nothing to get a good grip on. Also it's going to be made of quite "hard" high tensile steel so gripping tools are not going to easily get hold of it and will tend to "slip" rather than biting into the surface.
This is the big Achilles heel of the Vice grip (mole type) wrench. Whilst there are very many jobs they are indispensable for (I use mine on welding jobs all the time) they don't actually exert a truly "crushing" clamping force. I'm sure many will have found they slip quite easily on round components and need something like a hex head or "flats" on a round bar to really get a grip. In this instance the "hard" metal of the high tensile bolt is going to exacerbate this problem.
I have had much greater success with pipe wrenches in these situations (Stillson being one well known make, Footprint another) Don't buy "cheap" ones as the hardness of the jaws is not likely to be up to much.
The great advantage of this design of wrench (Stillson and Footprint) is that, due to the way their jaws and handle are arranged, they grip tighter the more you lean on them which is the big failing of the Vice grip type in this sort of situation. I find my Stillson type wrench has hard enough jaws to "bite" into a high tensile bolt whereas the Footprint does not but I've, in the past, also owned Stillson type wrenches which had softer jaws. Finally, if you can't get a purchase on the round bolt head either file or grind (angle grinder) a flat on it so the wrench can really get a grip. This means you really should then buy a new bolt but it sounds as if you should be doing this anyway. By the way, as llamallama suggests putting a leangth of pipe over the handle can let you apply really enormous forces and if you buy a good quality tool the jaws won't slip.
Hope even a wee bit of this is a help Good luck, please do let us know how you get on won't you regards, Jock
llamallama
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Exactly -- file or grinder to make a flat side, I thought this pretty much at the top of your post,
There's always a way......
There's always a way......
The Panda Nut
Nutty about Pandas Infected by Panda virus and OPD
Also heat it as much as you possibly dare with a good blow lamp. Watched this work when m,y dad was mending cars over many years. He never actually fried or burned anything!
Often a suitable splined bit can encouraged, you need one just a fraction bigger and as they are closer to round than hex you can generally hammer them in on a one use only method. Make sure it is square on, drive it as deep as you can, absolutely ensure any rust, mud etc is removed from the cap head first to get as much depth. Use a socket and if possible get an extension to allow you to then use a t-bar not a wrench so it can be driven square. Lots of fluids, a bit of heat, work the bolt once it’s free like you are tapping a thread, little and often both ways. I am sure options for getting on the outside are limited as there seems to be a car in the way!!!!. Time spent feeling the bolt out, will be well rewarded I am sure it will be do-able good luck
A few additional ideas:-
If you have a welder or can/are willing to re-assemble the brakes and take it to someone with a welder, you could weld a bolt onto the allen bolt and unscrew it.
With the bottom caliper bracket bolt removed, can you tap the bracket and get it to rotate about the top (seized) bolt, this might initially try to tighten the seized bolt but if you then grip the seized bolt with a vise-grips/stillsons wrench and then tap the bracket back down to it's normal position, it might loosen the seized bolt. In other words, remove bottom caliper bracket bolt, tap bracket upwards, pivoting around the seized bolt. lock vise grips or similar onto seized bolt, than tap bracket back into it's normal position. Might need to repeat a couple of times. I know that space is tight and possibly the caliper bracket won't rotate, but if it's possible, being able to rotate the caliper bracket might give you better access to get a vise-grips onto the seized bolt.
There are special sockets/extractors available to remove e.g wheel locking bolts. They are similar to easy-outs but the tapered flutes/teeth are inside the socket and grip the outside of the bolt. They're ideal for allen bolts if you can get a suitably sized one and have room to use it. You might try a Motor Factors to see if something suitable is available. If you want to see what these are like :- www.tengtools.com have 3/8" Drive Stud Extractors in various sizes - e.g. Stock No. ST38310 fits a 10mm bolt head but costs £25 + vat, afaik :bang:. www.tengtools.com/r/ie/en/Service-Tools/3/8inch-Drive-10mm-Stud-Extractor-ST38310 (note prices are in Euros not £Stg )
Draper/Sealey or Laser Tools etc. might have something less costly.
Many workshops now use 'Induction Heating' on seized fasteners, very fast, can reach into tight spaces and no risk of damaging adjacent areas as might happen if using a flame/torch. If the car was mobile, you could always ask a garage if they'd use their Induction Heater on just one bolt for you.
In the past, an Oxy-Acetylene welding torch would have been used to heat the seized bolt in order to free it. This would break free a rusted fastener, would also break the bond of any thread-locking compound thast might have been used. As already suggested, a gas blowtorch might work, see if you can get one that runs on Mapp Gas - this burns hotter, otherwise try for Propane - iirc this burns hotter than Butane.
I realise access might be difficult, but if you can cut a slot across the head of the allen bolt using a Dremel type tool/Angle Grinder (3" diameter if you can get one)/ hacksaw, you might be able to use a large straight screwdriver bit with an impact driver. In the old days there were things called 'Drag Link' sockets - these looked like extremely large screwdriver bits for extremely large screws. To cut a wide slot using a hacksaw, put 2 blades side-by-side into the frame.
I always try the simplest method first. First clean out the recess in the allen bolt head. Identify the type and size of bit needed. Are you sure it's an allen bolt, could it be Torx? or maybe even RIBE? (some Fiats use RIBE fasteners). If the correct bit starts to slip and round out the recess - STOP. Use a drift and hammer to strike the head of the allen? bolt to try to shock it loose. Someone else suggested trying a slightly larger bit or a bit of a different type, this often works. But first I'd try drilling the recess in the allen bolt head a bit deeper, then tap (ok, bash) the correct size bit deeper into the recess, causing it to create a deeper hexagonal hole, this might just get a better purchase on the seized bolt. If the recess has already been rounded-out, use a hammer and drift/punch to drive displaced metal around the recess back into the recess, then tap a suitable bit into the recess. All of this tapping/ hammering tends to loosen the seized bolt.
Another possibility is to drill the head off the allen bolt - you'll likely need to also drill some of the remaining bolt shank in order to be able to remove the caliper carrier bracket - obviously need to be careful so as not to damage the threads in the carrier.
In the past, a skilled Mechanic might simply use a cold chisel at the appropriate angle on the fastener to loosen it, but I've never done such a thing :devil: (not even on column steering locks
)I suppose the modern equivalent would be to use an Air Chisel.
I second what Pugglt Auld Jock said above re. using a Stillson wrench - a much under-appreciated tool. It's 'saved my bacon' many times when nothing else worked.
Al.
If you have a welder or can/are willing to re-assemble the brakes and take it to someone with a welder, you could weld a bolt onto the allen bolt and unscrew it.
With the bottom caliper bracket bolt removed, can you tap the bracket and get it to rotate about the top (seized) bolt, this might initially try to tighten the seized bolt but if you then grip the seized bolt with a vise-grips/stillsons wrench and then tap the bracket back down to it's normal position, it might loosen the seized bolt. In other words, remove bottom caliper bracket bolt, tap bracket upwards, pivoting around the seized bolt. lock vise grips or similar onto seized bolt, than tap bracket back into it's normal position. Might need to repeat a couple of times. I know that space is tight and possibly the caliper bracket won't rotate, but if it's possible, being able to rotate the caliper bracket might give you better access to get a vise-grips onto the seized bolt.
There are special sockets/extractors available to remove e.g wheel locking bolts. They are similar to easy-outs but the tapered flutes/teeth are inside the socket and grip the outside of the bolt. They're ideal for allen bolts if you can get a suitably sized one and have room to use it. You might try a Motor Factors to see if something suitable is available. If you want to see what these are like :- www.tengtools.com have 3/8" Drive Stud Extractors in various sizes - e.g. Stock No. ST38310 fits a 10mm bolt head but costs £25 + vat, afaik :bang:. www.tengtools.com/r/ie/en/Service-Tools/3/8inch-Drive-10mm-Stud-Extractor-ST38310 (note prices are in Euros not £Stg )
Draper/Sealey or Laser Tools etc. might have something less costly.
Many workshops now use 'Induction Heating' on seized fasteners, very fast, can reach into tight spaces and no risk of damaging adjacent areas as might happen if using a flame/torch. If the car was mobile, you could always ask a garage if they'd use their Induction Heater on just one bolt for you.
In the past, an Oxy-Acetylene welding torch would have been used to heat the seized bolt in order to free it. This would break free a rusted fastener, would also break the bond of any thread-locking compound thast might have been used. As already suggested, a gas blowtorch might work, see if you can get one that runs on Mapp Gas - this burns hotter, otherwise try for Propane - iirc this burns hotter than Butane.
I realise access might be difficult, but if you can cut a slot across the head of the allen bolt using a Dremel type tool/Angle Grinder (3" diameter if you can get one)/ hacksaw, you might be able to use a large straight screwdriver bit with an impact driver. In the old days there were things called 'Drag Link' sockets - these looked like extremely large screwdriver bits for extremely large screws. To cut a wide slot using a hacksaw, put 2 blades side-by-side into the frame.
I always try the simplest method first. First clean out the recess in the allen bolt head. Identify the type and size of bit needed. Are you sure it's an allen bolt, could it be Torx? or maybe even RIBE? (some Fiats use RIBE fasteners). If the correct bit starts to slip and round out the recess - STOP. Use a drift and hammer to strike the head of the allen? bolt to try to shock it loose. Someone else suggested trying a slightly larger bit or a bit of a different type, this often works. But first I'd try drilling the recess in the allen bolt head a bit deeper, then tap (ok, bash) the correct size bit deeper into the recess, causing it to create a deeper hexagonal hole, this might just get a better purchase on the seized bolt. If the recess has already been rounded-out, use a hammer and drift/punch to drive displaced metal around the recess back into the recess, then tap a suitable bit into the recess. All of this tapping/ hammering tends to loosen the seized bolt.
Another possibility is to drill the head off the allen bolt - you'll likely need to also drill some of the remaining bolt shank in order to be able to remove the caliper carrier bracket - obviously need to be careful so as not to damage the threads in the carrier.
In the past, a skilled Mechanic might simply use a cold chisel at the appropriate angle on the fastener to loosen it, but I've never done such a thing :devil: (not even on column steering locks
)I suppose the modern equivalent would be to use an Air Chisel.I second what Pugglt Auld Jock said above re. using a Stillson wrench - a much under-appreciated tool. It's 'saved my bacon' many times when nothing else worked.
Al.
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What an interesting post. I enormously enjoyed reading it.
I "discovered" welding bolts/nuts (I prefer a nut as I find it easier to weld) to broken/seized fixings many years ago. It's almost my first "go to" if I come across a really stubborn one. I've used it with great success even on the likes of bleed nipples. I think the extreme heat has as much to do with it as anything.
I would not have immediately thought of trying to tap the carrier round (having removed one of the bolts first) - must try and remember that one. - I think it could work well.
Ooooh! an induction heater! I wish I could afford one!
Amazing how I find I learn something almost every time I come onto this forum. Drag links? worked on many cars/light commercials with this system of steering, was the way it was done on vehicles with beam front axles. Never used a "drag link socket" and didn't know what it was 'till I googled it! Can I guess that it was used to screw up the adjustable "slug" which set the free play on the old type of ball joint before you split pinned it? Looks to me as if it could be useful for splitting the likes of an upright where it meets a pin type bottom ball joint (a la VAG, Fiat and others front suspension). So cheap I think I'll just buy one.
"Always try the simplest method first" Wish I was like that. Afraid I'm a pessimist and invariably assume the worst as a starting point - has the advantage though that I'm seldom surprised or disappointed!
I'm a great advocate of gentle but firm repeated tapping - resisting the temptation to "welly" it - Often results in loosening corroded parts. I'm particularly interested in Vibro shock equipment. I'd love to be able to justify the expense of a set of these: /www.youtube.com/watch?v=sf_mUSgkZbw At present I borrow my pal's air chisel if I need one but that's very inconvenient sometimes. Maybe I can convince my "personal Financial Adviser" AKA Mrs Jock, that an air hammer and a kit of these special sockets might be a good combined birthday/Christmas present?
Again, many thanks for your interesting post
Kind regards
Jock
That link doesn't seem to have transferred properly so here's another go at it:
Great, it worked that time. Think I missed out the HTTP on the first try.
Hi Jock,
I agree, welding a nut on is often easier/better, especially if you're trying to remove a broken stud :bang:. I suggested a bolt on this occasion because it was a socket head cap screw (allen bolt) that the OP was trying to remove.
Induction heaters - yes, I'd love to have one but the price is a bit too much for to afford/justify. But they're ideal for avoiding broken fasteners especially exhaust manifold studs - why do so many manufacturers use such corrosion-prone nuts in this location? (presumably cost?). I see some of the I/heater kits now include a fitting that looks like a flexible wire that can be wrapped around a larger/oddly-shaped component to apply heat.
Yes, you're spot-on re. what 'drag link sockets' are/were for. Probably a bit hard to find nowadays, except secondhand? I don't know if they would be suitable for opening up the 'split' at the base of a suspension upright - I've used a slim cold chisel i.e. one with a very gradual taper, to good effect. (I've got a couple of old 'Bedford' ones, they're made from flat section steel instead of the more usual hexagonal/octagonal bar.
I think I share the pessimism trait also, certainly where car problems (and D.I.Y.!) are concerned.
My problem is I waste a lot of time/effort/thinking power on gathering everything I might need, (including if 'Murphy's Law' were to intervene), before starting the job. Sometimes I'm so worn out by all this preparation and thinking that I'm too tired to start the repair.....
I agree with the use of 'gentle but firm repeated tapping'. Plus the obligatory 'penetrating fluid' of your choice. Many use WD40, tests have shown that it's not as effective as fluids sold for the purpose of penetrating rust on seized fasteners, in fact Diesel fuel/home heating oil is maybe better than WD40. Plus giving it time to work, with repeat applications if necessary. And a bit of heat if appropriate.
Have you heard about the 'candle trick' for freeing seized fasteners?....
I was very interested about the Vibro shock equipment, hadn't come across this up to now. But I'd be afraid to ask the price seeing as it's made by 'Snap-On'.
Have you got a 'Lidl' store near you. I've bought quite a bit of stuff (mainly tools) from there over the years. Got some air-tools at good prices incl. an air chisel with attachments - so I'm all set-up to go. We don't have Machine Mart etc. over here but I still keep an eye on tool costs in the U.K. Tools in Lidl are significantly cheaper (my air chisel etc were approx. 1/2 price) than Machine Mart/Sealey/Draper/Halfords etc. I'm not claiming they're as good but for home use, they're probably good enough - in my experience, most tools get broken by incorrect/inappropriate use. So worth checking out - you can either get wanted tools sooner or buy more of them
. But I can understand 'The Keeper of the Purse' has to be persuaded first - with Lidl purchases, you can try claiming they're a bargain. (afaik many women love bargains).Many thanks for your kind words, much appreciated.
Kindest Regards,
AL.
My problem is I waste a lot of time/effort/thinking power on gathering everything I might need, (including if 'Murphy's Law' were to intervene), before starting the job. Sometimes I'm so worn out by all this preparation and thinking that I'm too tired to start the repair.....
I agree with the use of 'gentle but firm repeated tapping'. Plus the obligatory 'penetrating fluid' of your choice. Many use WD40, tests have shown that it's not as effective as fluids sold for the purpose of penetrating rust on seized fasteners, in fact Diesel fuel/home heating oil is maybe better than WD40. Plus giving it time to work, with repeat applications if necessary. And a bit of heat if appropriate.
Have you heard about the 'candle trick' for freeing seized fasteners?....
I was very interested about the Vibro shock equipment, hadn't come across this up to now. But I'd be afraid to ask the price seeing as it's made by 'Snap-On'.
Have you got a 'Lidl' store near you. I've bought quite a bit of stuff (mainly tools) from there over the years. Got some air-tools at good prices incl. an air chisel with attachments - so I'm all set-up to go. We don't have Machine Mart etc. over here but I still keep an eye on tool costs in the U.K. Tools in Lidl are significantly cheaper (my air chisel etc were approx. 1/2 price) than Machine Mart/Sealey/Draper/Halfords etc. I'm not claiming they're as good but for home use, they're probably good enough - in my experience, most tools get broken by incorrect/inappropriate use. So worth checking out - you can either get wanted tools sooner or buy more of them
I too suffer from trying to cover all possible scenarios when preparing. I have a drawer full of parts I got, in addition to the "main offender", just in case I might need them and then never did!
Over many years (started in this game in the '60's) I've tried many, many "magic brews" of releasing fluid. So far I've not found anything better than Plus Gas formula A. (Did they ever make a "formula B"?) I keep both a spray can and a "dribble" can of the stuff. There's a chap in Maryland I know, who's rebuilding a Mk1 Corvette just now, who tells me PB Blaster is the best - I don't think they have Plus Gas over there but I can buy PB Blaster on the net and I mean to try it one of these days. I find the problem with assessing how good a releasing agent might be is that having broken the fixing you can say "Oh well, that didn't work" but you can't then blast it with something else to find out if it's better because it's now broken! OK you can try the fixing next to it (maybe you're working on an exhaust manifold just for instance) but maybe it's not so rusty and is going to take less to loosen it anyway! The worst thing I've tried in recent years was to undo the Lambda sensor in our old 1992 Panda Parade. This sensor sits in the twin exhaust downpipes to the front of the engine and ours was incredibly corroded. I tried everything, Lambda split socket with my 2 ft long breaker bar- it broke the socket! Heat, Plus gas, lots of "tapping". By now the hex was well rounded so reverted to my biggest Stilson - wouldn't move! Then, in Halfords I think, I saw "Loctite Freeze and Release" Decided to give it a try but, no good. Eventually the threaded insert in the downpipes tore out! Problem solved new downpipe needed - old one was very rusty anyway. I mention this because having bought the Freeze and Release I've subsequently used it in other situations and it works quite well but you need to spray for a good 15 seconds or so (depends on mass of component) to get the full freezing (contraction) effect, so you use quite a lot of it each time. Handy for plastic/metal interfaces and electricals where using heat is not practical. WD40? - (stands for "Water Dispersant Formula 40" I think) In my experience great stuff for many situations but not particularly effective as a penetrant/releasing agent. Having said that I have one part used canister, snuggling up to the Plus Gas can, beside my toolbox and two new ones on the shelf! Agree Diesel works well. I poured neat diesel down the bores of an old siezed rusty engine (Hillman Imp) which would not turn over and after best part of a week I was able to tap all four pistons out.
I think someone mentioned the Candle thing to me many years ago - seems to be a certain familiarity to it? but I've never tried it. Involves heating things up 'till the candle wax flows when touched to it doesn't it? Maybe it works? who knows, anyone tried it?
Regarding the vibro socket set seems a number of suppliers are selling it under their own names (Snap On, Sykes Pickavant, CTA Tools and others) CTA Tools 1000 Vibroshock Socket Kit (8 Pc.): Amazon.co.uk: Car & Motorbike so looks like it's not actually made by any of them - Maybe Apex tool group? - I'm living in hope of finding someone doing it at a good discount. The Americans seem to have a couple of variations on the theme too. Plenty for me to investigate.
Lidl and Aldi are very big up here. There are several branches of both within about a half hour drive of us. I've bought a number of tools etc and found some to be really quite good but some to be pretty bad. Machine Mart's professional grade stuff seems better to me. I like also that MM's spares back up is pretty good - and that's important to me. I'm probably going to buy a CP (Chicago Pneumatic) 7110 as I have been very impressed with the CP 7748 rattle gun I bought a number of years ago - "bullies" crank pulley and CV driveshaft nuts off without breaking sweat! I am just a little seduced by the looks and price of this Clarke hammer from MM though! https://www.machinemart.co.uk/p/cla...Lx2PfvpbcNyHtxU5ZJ_0V20Pdg-vE7rRoCJZIQAvD_BwE
Hi Jock, thanks for the reply and all the new information. I love tools
You're right about the 'candle trick' for freeing seized fasteners - I discovered it on a U.S forum, someone mentioned it and then several others chimed in to say they had either heard about it many years ago or always used it, seems like it is a trick that has been passed down the generations ( maybe because they had candles before fancy spray cans of penetrating fluid. I've heard PB Blaster recommended several times on the same forum, others have their own preferred brand, others recommend a 50/50 mix of Acetone and ATF (auto trans. fluid).
Two penetrating fluids I remember fondly from back in the day (late '60's onwards) were iirc Caramba? (which was either Italian or possibly German) and Rustola ( iirc a Holts product) - both worked well.
I hadn't heard of Loctite Freeze & Release, will have to check it out.
You're also spot-on about dealing with exhausts. You can never tell which stud is going to shear off - until it happens.... Often the rustiest nut undoes easily, whereas the cleanest of the bunch shears off. I don't remember having many problems when manufacturers used brass nuts on steel studs.... I think one problem with Oxygen sensors is that they're usually in place undisturbed for many years before needing replacement. Maybe the answer is, if you get a new/fairly new car, to remove all these items prone to seizure and coat the threads with Copaslip? or similar - but who even thinks of doing this, let alone actually does it?
I'm wondering if I might actually not need one of the Vibro socket sets? Looking at the images and video, I might get the same effect by using a blunt ended bit in my air chisel to impact the bolt head while attempting to turn the bolt with a ring or combination spanner. For nuts I could use a short section of heavy wall metal pipe welded to a chisel bit to make contact with the top surface of the nut but clear of the stud threads and again a ring or combi. spanner to turn the nut when (if) it loosens. It seems to me that the way these vibro sockets work is to apply impact force to the bolt head or nut without contacting the surface clamped underneath and the wrench/lever is just to manually apply a rotational force. But it's an interesting development.
That CP air chisel set you are considering purchasing looks good to me, I noticed on Machine Mart website (yes, I did take a look) that the 'Clarke XPro range of air tools are top quality professional tools built for tough daily use in garages'. Mine is like the poor cousin shown(c.£16), but it'll probably do me just fine (famous last words!).
I'm glad you have Lidl and Aldi stores in your part of the world, I wasn't sure, but they sure seem to be popping up just about everywhere nowadays. I've both in my local rural small town (8 miles) and also north of me (18 miles) and south of me (25 miles), so if my local store is sold out of a special I'm interested in (when they're gone, they're gone, as they say), I can have them call one of the next nearest stores and check availability. The staff are very helpful. I prefer Lidl over Aldi for tools, I like their larger socket sets and spanners, don't like their screwdrivers, paintbrushes and some other items, but at least you can check out the item before purchasing unlike online. I've seen reports of how good Machine Marts parts/service back-up is in the U.K. motoring mags, my couple of experiences with Lidl/Aldi was with air tools/compressors - they had quite acceptable back-up available. I think their air tools were supplied by whatever Wolf Tools became (Omega-Wolf?), and I was soon back in action.
One further thought I had after my last post was to do with how to spread the clamp joint at the base of a suspension strut or where a suspension upright is attached to a balljoint. One trick I've seen is to remove the clamp bolt, insert it from the opposite side ie. into the threaded half, place as thick a piece of steel into the gap/split and use the bolt to jack the split apart. (I've use an old Footprint? decorator's scraper, good steel in these).
That's all for now, I enjoy and appreciate your posts and reminiscences.
Best Regards,
AL.
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A bit late to this..
If you are stuck for options ( time..!)
when push comes to shove..
I would use a drill to take the head off.
Ideally a reverse action ( so running the drill bit counterclockwise..)
You can buy reverse drills..
But grinding a drill ' backwards' does well enough
In the OP.s scenario you have chewed the corners from the allen bolt : cap head
So a drill is essentially in a 'tube'..so well guided.
Use a big drill to start
LH or RH.. it will cut a central hole .. or at least a shallow divet type of countersink.
Once you have this feature in the centre line of the bolt..and its threaded section
You can then run a drill of a smaller diameter.
My preference it to run @2mm smaller than the tapping size of the bolt..
This then makes the stuck thread section of the bolt a 1mm walled tube..
This is either:
Thin enough to flex and withdraw complete
Capable of shearing the bolts head before the extraction tool does.
Once hollowed out you can employ an 6/8/10/12 mm drill bit - in reverse
This will.. through the cutting action..
Heat the bolt AND give a counterclockwise turning motion.
So.. youve a 50/50 chance of:
Bolt withdraws.. through CCW torque
Head of bolt drops off .. once drilled through
Either will enable removal of previously fixed component
Extractor tools.
UK models : easy out type tapered 'helter.skelter'
Ok.. but are soon worn..losing grip
US models: square bar
Tapered along 4 flats with chisel edges providing the grip.
I tend to open out the hole
as a 'counterbore'.. giving 2 diameters to grip on.
Once the head is off.. the threaded partion is often free enough to withdraw easily..
With the extractor.
Uk variants twist into hole.. but have to provide their own grip. Due to corkscrew nature of gripping edges
US variants are tapered bar.. so you hammer them into the hole.
Charlie
If you are stuck for options ( time..!)
when push comes to shove..
I would use a drill to take the head off.
Ideally a reverse action ( so running the drill bit counterclockwise..)
You can buy reverse drills..
But grinding a drill ' backwards' does well enough
In the OP.s scenario you have chewed the corners from the allen bolt : cap head
So a drill is essentially in a 'tube'..so well guided.
Use a big drill to start
LH or RH.. it will cut a central hole .. or at least a shallow divet type of countersink.
Once you have this feature in the centre line of the bolt..and its threaded section
You can then run a drill of a smaller diameter.
My preference it to run @2mm smaller than the tapping size of the bolt..
This then makes the stuck thread section of the bolt a 1mm walled tube..
This is either:
Thin enough to flex and withdraw complete
Capable of shearing the bolts head before the extraction tool does.
Once hollowed out you can employ an 6/8/10/12 mm drill bit - in reverse
This will.. through the cutting action..
Heat the bolt AND give a counterclockwise turning motion.
So.. youve a 50/50 chance of:
Bolt withdraws.. through CCW torque
Head of bolt drops off .. once drilled through
Either will enable removal of previously fixed component
Extractor tools.
UK models : easy out type tapered 'helter.skelter'
Ok.. but are soon worn..losing grip
US models: square bar
Tapered along 4 flats with chisel edges providing the grip.
I tend to open out the hole
as a 'counterbore'.. giving 2 diameters to grip on.
Once the head is off.. the threaded partion is often free enough to withdraw easily..
With the extractor.
Uk variants twist into hole.. but have to provide their own grip. Due to corkscrew nature of gripping edges
US variants are tapered bar.. so you hammer them into the hole.
Charlie
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'Morning Charlie
I have both types and don't really have a preference for either (they both break easily if abused!)
However I had not thought of drilling a stepped hole into the seized fixing! What a brilliant idea! Thanks very much for that.
Occurs to me it might reduce the tendency for the drilled fixing to "spread" under the influence of the ezout which tends to lock it in place?
regards
Jock.
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Hello again Al.
If we continue this conversation I think we may find our moderator moving us to the "Leasure Lounge" but I'm enjoying it so much I'll risk the slap on the wrist.
The Yanks seem very keen on that Acetone/ATF mix - my friend has mentioned it. Much easier for them to buy stuff like Acetone and even Acids than it is for us though. See posts on You Tube re file sharpening with acid. Try walking into a British chemist and buying the necessary acid!
Never heard of Caramba but Rustola is a very familiar name of old to me. A quick google reveals both are still available!
I bought my Ibiza new 3+ years ago. (the Fiats are a "family" thing - Panda and Punto at this time) and I would guess I think of "Copa slipping" parts of it - the Ibiza - (as you suggest) almost every week! O2 sensors (she has 2 of course) and spark plugs (which are long life and long threaded, so will be years before removal otherwise - live at the bottom of very deep holes too!) being just two examples. Of course I've done nothing about it yet as I'm far too worried about Murphys law manifesting itself in damaged sensors and snapped off plugs! (I fear we probably have similar mindsets on this?) Her manufacturer's warranty cover expired this march and I'm now trying to make my mind up as to whether to start doing the services myself (which doesn't frighten me) or have it done by our local indy VAG dealer (AVW autocentre who I trust unreservedly) so as to continue the "stamps" in the service book. I am a qualified (City and guilds certificates and others) mechanic and I've thought of having my own stamp made up - not sure if that would be really "ethical" though?
Vibro? - It had occurred to me too that using a blunt ended chisel intelligently might work well. I'm not so confident I could use it that way on a bleed nipple without snapping it off though. I think it would work well on more substantial fixings though. The big advantage of the dedicated sockets is the way, as you rightly mention, that the vibratory force is applied, through the specially shallow socket, to the fixing not the body of what it's screwed into. For the number of times I would use them they would be an expensive luxury - BUT I WANT ONE.
My daughter has only recently returned (with her husband and children) from living in Maryland US. We would visit at least twice a year. Aldi were opening stores all over the place but no sign of Lidl. Earlier, this spring, we were about 2 miles west of Boston Mass, where my sister lives, for a family wedding and holiday. Noticed a couple of Aldis up there too. Is there anywhere they aren't?
Wolf tools? Until relatively recently I've always viewed them as mediocre quality and never really looked at them. Then I decided I wanted a decent air compressor as I was about to buy that CP rattle gun and needed something "meaty" to drive it. - I'd lived for years with a very old (1952 manufactured) BEN which probably, on a good day, had around a 3 to 4 cfm fad output and no hope of running the CP. Realising I couldn't justify (and had no hope of talking Mrs J round) to the money needed for a "quality product" I started looking at the cheaper options. Having heard the truely terrible racket a direct drive compressor makes I decided on a belt driven jobbie with around 14 cfm air and around a 100 litre reciever. There's quite a choice available but, over the month or so I took to decide, one kept on jumping out at me. That was the Wolf Dakota 90. https://www.ukhs.tv/Dakota-14-CFM-Air-Compressor
Obviously Chinese made it was the most reasonably priced at that time (I think SGS are now selling the same item with their badging on it?) I wondered what the spares would be like so contacted the unlikely sounding UKHS (UK Home Shopping) who were very reassuring. So, taking a big breath, I bought one! That was about 5/6 years ago (it was yellow then, not blue, and a bit cheaper but otherwise identical). It's protective crate is not too robust - wooden base with cardboard top - It arrived with a bash in the cardboard and a slightly bent compressor pulley as a result. Rang UKHS who immediately offered to send another complete compressor and remove the damaged one. With the bent pulley being the only problem I thought that there was a high risk of the replacement perhaps sustaining worse damage due to the flimsy crating so asked if they could send just the pulley? Yes, we keep comprehensive spares - it arrived within 2 days. Getting the old one off was good fun as it's taper mounted to the shaft - moderate heat did the trick! As supplied it runs at 100 psi but the tech leaflet that comes with it says it's safe up to 150. (but that will have an effect on longevity) Our shop compressor used to run at 150 psi and so I decided to run it at 125 psi. This gives a very useful reserve when running the big rattle gun at 90 psi through my regulator set up. the whole thing runs pretty much as I was used to in the garage. Been used intermittently for 5/6 years now and runs just lovely (and really very quiet - doesn't upset the neighbours) So, Wolf? yes I really am rather impressed. Might well try some more of their stuff!
Splitting those ball joints we are talking about? I, almost exclusively, use a very large "strike through" screwdriver which has a square shaft and very gradual wedging action. That socket you talked about looked "useful" although I don't actually have a specific task in mind for it at this moment - Oh dear, Why are tools so seductive? Or is that just because, now being "old" I'm no longer so distracted by other "distractions"?
Stay safe, regards
Jock
I realize I've mentioned O2 sensors and Copper based anti seize in the same sentence here. As you may know this very highly regarded "old friend" of us mechanics has had a wee bit of a bad press lately because of it's ability to contaminate the "young upstart" - electronic components. As you may know it needs to be kept well away from the "business" end of Oxygen sensors and can cause ABS sensor problems too. I believe it's also now recommended not to use it on spark plug threads either as it can increase resistance in the circuit. I'm still using it on plugs and will continue to do so unless a problem changes my mind but I've been using Ceramic greases on brake and exhaust parts and fixings for some time now. (what happened to the idea of brass nuts on exhausts? - as you mention above - used to work very well I seem to remember? surely couldn't be too expensive?).
I bought a 500g tub of this grease: https://silverhook.co.uk/grease?product_id=320 and I've been merrily "slapping" it, sparingly, around mainly when assembling exhaust fittings. It's quite thin and slightly "runny". When the exhaust gets good and hot the "runny" bit burns off leaving a white kind of chalky deposit which is, presumably, the ceramic content. I've only had to undo a couple of treated fixings so far but the prognosis for the future is good as they came apart well with no corrosion problems and the chalky deposit plainly visible on the threads. I was intending to use it on brakes too but I'm worried about the runny nature of it causing it not to stay so readily where it's put so I use Cera Tec and find it very good. Haven't used it on an O2 sensor yet as the one's I've bought come with anti-seize already on the threads (or in a wee tube for you to apply). Wonder if the ceramic would interfere with the earth return? although, thinking about it, I think all the newer sensors have a return wire, it was only the very early types that relied on an earth through the exhaust system piping itself.
