Hello,

I've recently purchased a realtively low mileage Stilo 1.9 JTD (2004). I love the car and long story short, it's MOT time.

I've been planning to replace the front subframe due to the previous advisory - that's all well and good, managed to get a decent replacement part. But I've just had a mechanic tell me that the rear subframe is absolutely toast...

Could I please ask someone knowledgeable/experienced to let me know about the following:

1. What rear subframe do I need to source? Does it matter what particular multiwagon it came off?
2. What would be a fair labour price for replacing both front and rear subframe? If it helps, I'm based in the South West.

Thanks for any help/advice! I do want to keep this little geez on the road for the next few years.

Hi, Welcome to the FF.

Are you sure it's the complete sub frame that needs replacing? Usually it's just the bushes that need replacing.
.

The subframe is just a huge piece of ironmongery so in itself is not particularly complicated to replace... You would have to detach the exhaust (I don't think the subframe passes behind the fuel tank, like on some cars) and also disconnect the rear brakes... then just unbolt it.

The shocks, springs, arms and brakes would all have to be transposed to the new subframe.

If it was me, I'd replace the rear suspension arm bushes while the subframe is on the floor. There's a particular way to fit these; a mark on the bush needs to align with the welded seam on the subframe arm, then tightened when the weight of the car is on the wheels... so try to dig out the "how to". It's on the forum somewhere.

It's a bit time consuming. I'd hazard a guess that all of the above and replacing the bushes would take at least 4 hours in the workshop. If it was me, it'd take two or three weekends..

I'd expect the sub-frames for the SW to be different to the ones for the hatchback, since it could have a higher weight rating etc. but if they're the same then you're more likely to find a good subframe from a hatchback (just more choice), so that's worth checking.

For the hatchback there's a different subframe for cars fitted with the xenon/gas discharge lights but I think opinion says this is just an extra bracket to mount a load sensor, for the self-levelling mechanism... so the SW may be the same. I think the rule of thumb is that more or less any subframe will fit, so have a look at what you can find and then we can check whether it's a good prospect for you.


Ralf S.

Ralf S. said:

The subframe is just a huge piece of ironmongery....

Ralf S.

Click to expand...

Therein lies what Davren was getting at, re whether it was the frame itself, the bushes, or something else.

To have a front subframe mentioned on an advisory is one thing, but for a rear to go from good to 'toast' inside a year is something else.

I would immediately stick it in for a MoT, irrespective of when the old one runs out, to see whether the frame was that bad, and to hear about anything else that was shot to pieces, like the whole of the underside, before even thinking of buying any bits.

Thank you all for your pointers!

Yeah, I need to have investigated what's the specific issue with the subframe, it does make sense it may be just the bushes, although I've read on one of the threads somewhere that replacing the subframe is just an easier job overall and less likely to be cocked up. I'll probably should take it first for a thorough MOT to see where I'm standing.

I've never seen the subframe toasted. Like Ralf said, it's just a piece of iron. You will probably have bad bushings.
The problem is, you won't get a subframe with good bushings, so you would need to replace them anyway.
From what I heard, no mechanic wants to replace them, since it takes too much time and it's really hard to get the bushes back into the frame without special tools.

I had new bushes fitted locally for about GBP150 labour.

I supplied new bushes (which were pretty good value.. something like GBP25 each) and I also bought the special tool for winding them in (which from memory was the same sort of money).

I did dig out the fitting guide (or Davren might have sent it to me) which makes it sound a lot easier than it is and which might have fooled the garage. They did say they weren't ever going to do another one ever again..

But the principle isn't too complicated. You drift/hack out the old one and shove in a new one (correctly aligned). Then use the tool (which is just a long threaded rod, with a cup that fits into slots on the bush, to stop it rotating) and press it in.

If I was doing it, I'd take the sub-frame off the car. The biggest MoFo of the whole job appears to be the amount of effort it takes to press in the new bushes. If they were 1cm narrower, say, they would just drop in.

So... make sure the workshop grinds out the subframe cup so it's all clean (and crucially, free of obstructions). Then smooth down the metal cups of the bushes themselves - i.e. take off up to 1mm of material from the diameter so that a mortal man with a 50 tonne press has a chance of getting them in there.

They mustn't be "loose" or they'll rotate during use.. but if you see how much effort is required to squeeze them in there.. they're never going to rotate. You can use some Loctite goo (I'll try to find the number), made specially to lock pressed in bushes if you're worried... but the entire weight of a battleship won't make them shift, trust me..

The sub-frame is supposed to be marked with a white stripe of paint when you fit new bushes, so the subframe does not get a second set. I presume Fiat thought that the receiver would get enlarged over time (wear and rust) so that continually cleaning it/fitting new bushes would eventually make a set of new bushes a loose fit … hahahahaha!


Ralf S.

Absolutely, but that's all assuming he wants to lie in the road/drive/gutter/garage floor and do it. If he does then yes it's do-able, I did a pair on my 1.8 about 5 years ago, but it was in the summer, and it still took a week at my speed of working .

Or he gets a garage to do it and A, it'll cost and B, they'll find all manner of things that they must advise him on as they're so dangerous they have to be done come what may, and if it were Quickfit probably never let him have the car back .

So, before he embarks on a world cruise of cost and heartache he really need to know the true condition of what he's bought in order to evaluate what he needs to spend, re how long he expects to keep it, re what use he intends to put it to.

All of which for a Stilo, will be a challenging decision

Maxcaddy said:

Absolutely, but that's all assuming he wants to lie in the road/drive/gutter/garage floor and do it. If he does then yes it's do-able, I did a pair on my 1.8 about 5 years ago, but it was in the summer, and it still took a week at my speed of working .

Click to expand...

That's why I conned my local garage to do it.. It's not technically a difficult job.. but hammering, chiseling, grinding, bashing, beating.... I decided it was worth the $150 to not have to do it..


Ralf S.

So, good time for an update:

I found a decent mechanic, quite a few other things have been uncovered about the car's state but that's besides the point.

Now, I'm in another pickle - the garage that originally supplied me with the front subframe, turns out it's the wrong one for the model and it's the second one they've ordered... I can't even

Anyways, I'm searching for a replacement and am not sure if one (which is for 140 bhp version of 1.9 JTD) will fit my 80 bhp stilo - can't post a url yet - does anyone have a clue, I really want to avoid shipping subframes back and forth

Only difference about front subframes is trailing arm bolt diameter pre fl is 12 mm and fl is 14 if I remember correctly

What's the last 8 digits of your chassis number? We can use the ePer to check.

The main thing to avoid is as above, switching to a sub-frame designed for pressed steel wishbone arms, rather than cast.. or vice-versa, depending on which type of arms your car has.

The 140bhp 16v JTD almost certainly has the later, pressed steel arms I'd guess without looking.


Ralf S.

Now I'm confused

Are we talking front subframe or rear subframe ?, cos the story now goes back and forth, and they are completely different.

If the front and rear need replacing, and there's other work to do, are you sure you're not just jumping into a money pit .

Maxcaddy said:

Now I'm confused

Are we talking front subframe or rear subframe ?, cos the story now goes back and forth, and they are completely different.

If the front and rear need replacing, and there's other work to do, are you sure you're not just jumping into a money pit .

Click to expand...

We've sorted the rear sub-frame.. now we're doing the front.


Ralf S.

Ralf S. said:

We've sorted the rear sub-frame.. now we're doing the front.


Ralf S.

Click to expand...

Ahhh, well in that case it doesn't matter cos by the time he's finished he'll have new Wishbones, drop links, track rod ends, driveshaft boots etc, so as long as they all for the same model it'll be OK

And if he doesn't fit all that, he soon will do

Ralf S. said:

What's the last 8 digits of your chassis number? We can use the ePer to check.

The main thing to avoid is as above, switching to a sub-frame designed for pressed steel wishbone arms, rather than cast.. or vice-versa, depending on which type of arms your car has.

The 140bhp 16v JTD almost certainly has the later, pressed steel arms I'd guess without looking.


Ralf S.

Click to expand...

Would you be able to check it for me on ePer, don't have an option to have my computer work with it - last 8 digits of chassis number: 00445295

Thank you!!