Save up to 15% with Adrian Flux insurance!

Technical Stilo JTD won't start

Currently reading:
Technical Stilo JTD won't start

S

sprint750

New member
Joined
Mar 4, 2011
Messages
20
Points
5
Dear all

After 11 years of troublefree ownership and only 290.000 km, my '05 Stilo MW 1.9JTD 115 developped a sudden and fatal problem.

The engine died suddenly, at idle. No way to start again.
No noise, no smoke, no rattle, no message. It just died, exactly as if you switch it off with the key. So I had the vehicle towed home. The car has been working fine until it stops.

Last service was oil change, engine mount replacement and headlamps restoration (faded plastic), a few weeks ago, involving a battery removal. (all performed by myself)

Of course I know the usual culprit (TDC sensor) ... BUT .maybe things are not that simple..

with most of the cases described, you're supposed to be able to start later, when eveything have cooled down a bit.
On my Stilo, no way. The car have been sitting since. Engine will simply not start under cranking. No misfire, no hesitation or so,nothing happens, exactly as the injectors were not driven...
Also, i don't remember any "Loose connection" message on display when engine stalled, or maybe I didnt'pay attention

For the basic checks (no tools):
- No other issue. Everything works as it should (signals, ventilation, wipers, lights door lock, power window etc..)
- Battery is OK, strong. Starter motor runs fine, low pressure fuel pump working (noise) with IGN On
- Disconnected MAF: NO change
- Tried second key: NO change

I hooked MES, and DTC reading shows nothing apart the usual preheating DTC, which I have been living with for ages. Glow Plugs are original to the car (15 y.o)
NO expected Synchonization DTC between CPS / TDC :confused:

Quick parameters reading with MES:
- When cranking it build up a pressure > 360 b, so I suppose that the cambelt is still present and drives a working H.P pump...
- Key is read, starting is allowed (Immobilizer unlocked)

So for now I'm a bit confused.:idea:
For a living, I've been a technical trainer for 10 years in automotive industry (Mercedes/Chrysler/Renault)...ruling diagnostic training sessions for workshop technicians. Back in the days, I used to work in a fully equipped workshop. Now the car is just sitting in the street, in front of the home. It makes a huge difference!:cry: It was 10 years ago, but I still don't need a course about CR system. (y)

Just field experience and feedback when logic do not fully apply.

Thank you for your inputs

Best regards
Sebastien
 
Last edited:
sprint750 said:
Dear all

After 11 years of troublefree ownership and only 290.000 km, my '05 Stilo MW 1.9JTD 115 developped a sudden and fatal problem.

The engine died suddenly, at idle. No way to start again.
No noise, no smoke, no rattle, no message. It just died, exactly as if you switch it off with the key. So I had the vehicle towed home. The car has been working fine until it stops.

Last service was oil change, engine mount replacement and headlamps restoration (faded plastic), a few weeks ago, involving a battery removal. (all performed by myself)

Of course I know the usual culprit (TDC sensor) ... BUT .maybe things are not that simple..

with most of the cases described, you're supposed to be able to start later, when eveything have cooled down a bit.
On my Stilo, no way. The car have been sitting since. Engine will simply not start under cranking. No misfire, no hesitation or so,nothing happens, exactly as the injectors were not driven...
Also, i don't remember any "Loose connection" message on display when engine stalled, or maybe I didnt'pay attention

For the basic checks (no tools):
- No other issue. Everything works as it should (signals, ventilation, wipers, lights door lock, power window etc..)
- Battery is OK, strong. Starter motor runs fine, low pressure fuel pump working (noise) with IGN On
- Disconnected MAF: NO change
- Tried second key: NO change

I hooked MES, and DTC reading shows nothing apart the usual preheating DTC, which I have been living with for ages. Glow Plugs are original to the car (15 y.o)
NO expected Synchonization DTC between CPS / TDC :confused:

Quick parameters reading with MES:
- When cranking it build up a pressure > 360 b, so I suppose that the cambelt is still present and drives a working H.P pump...
- Key is read, starting is allowed (Immobilizer unlocked)

So for now I'm a bit confused.:idea:
For a living, I've been a technical trainer for 10 years in automotive industry (Mercedes/Chrysler/Renault)...ruling diagnostic training sessions for workshop technicians. Back in the days, I used to work in a fully equipped workshop. Now the car is just sitting in the street, in front of the home. It makes a huge difference!:cry: It was 10 years ago, but I still don't need a course about CR system. (y)

Just field experience and feedback when logic do not fully apply.

Thank you for your inputs

Best regards
Sebastien
Click to expand...
If you want you can measure the resistance of the crank sensor it should be very close to 900ohms.

Or you could just fit a new crank sensor.

Failed crank sensor will not necessarily cause a fault code of any kind.

Recently my crank position sensor failed when hot but after an hour or more it cooled enough to allow a restart.
Resistance was 12,000 ohms .
No codes set.

You could also check continuity of wiring between crank sensor connector and ecu connector . I didn't because a new sensor cost £5.60 including delivery from a well known auction site.

Good luck , let us know

Bon chance

Removing the old crank sensor can be a fight , take your time and do not snap sensor off in engine
 
Last edited:
Ralf S. said:
If the sensor doesn't work, then check there's fuel being delivered. If the fuel shut-off button has tripped, or the fuel pump (or relay or fuse) has died then it won't have fuel, so it won't start.

Ralf S.
Click to expand...

Ralf S,
Thank you for your input,

As previously mentionned, the fuel pump is actually engaged when I put IGN ON (typical noise from under backseats) . Fuel cutout button is as it should (ON position).

As a peace of mind, I'll check that fuel is actually delivered, if a new TDC sensor do not solve the issue.BTW, I forgot to mention but fuel filter has less than 1000 km on it.

So, on my point of view, Low Pressure fuel delivery is definitely not the root cause for my current issue.



Best regards

Sebastien
 
jackwhoo said:
If you want you can measure the resistance of the crank sensor it should be very close to 900ohms.

Or you could just fit a new crank sensor.

Failed crank sensor will not necessarily cause a fault code of any kind.

Recently my crank position sensor failed when hot but after an hour or more it cooled enough to allow a restart.
Resistance was 12,000 ohms .
No codes set.

You could also check continuity of wiring between crank sensor connector and ecu connector . I didn't because a new sensor cost £5.60 including delivery from a well known auction site.

Good luck , let us know

Bon chance

Removing the old crank sensor can be a fight , take your time and do not snap sensor off in engine
Click to expand...

jackwhoo;
Thank you for your input,

This is my next step. Problem, the vehicle is parked in the street

I have a garage, with lots of equipment, vintage Alfa's etc ...:D but it is far from home, outside the city. I'd prefer avoid towing the vehicle a second time. (n)

I'll have first to check because there are 2 types of sensors: With (early) or without (late) the cable attached.
Information about the switch from early (with cable) to later (without) is not consistent within the suppliers and the websites. So i'll have to check from under the car to be 100 % sure.

My other question: May a faulty CPS (camsahft) sensor prevent a JTD engine from starting ?? My experience with EDC15 equipped engines from other brands says NO (just take longer starter activation) but maybe the FIAT setting is different ?


Best regards
Sebastien
 
sprint750 said:
jackwhoo;
Thank you for your input,

This is my next step. Problem, the vehicle is parked in the street

I have a garage, with lots of equipment, vintage Alfa's etc ...:D but it is far from home, outside the city. I'd prefer avoid towing the vehicle a second time. (n)

I'll have first to check because there are 2 types of sensors: With (early) or without (late) the cable attached.
Information about the switch from early (with cable) to later (without) is not consistent within the suppliers and the websites. So i'll have to check from under the car to be 100 % sure.

My other question: May a faulty CPS (camsahft) sensor prevent a JTD engine from starting ?? My experience with EDC15 equipped engines from other brands says NO (just take longer starter activation) but maybe the FIAT setting is different ?


Best regards
Sebastien
Click to expand...
Cross your fingers you have the later type socket that connects directly too the sensor , not the one with wire part of sensor.

If your have a tool that can read data with engine cranking on starter motor and rpm shows 0rpm then it is definitely crank sensor or crank sensor wiring.
 
jackwhoo said:
Cross your fingers you have the later type socket that connects directly too the sensor , not the one with wire part of sensor.

If your have a tool that can read data with engine cranking on starter motor and rpm shows 0rpm then it is definitely crank sensor or crank sensor wiring.
Click to expand...

I checked with ePer/ VIN number got me to ref.46798352 which is the version without the cable attached (BOSCH 0 281 002 603)


Now a reflection about your suggestion of monitoring RPM with diag tool (MES with ELM327, for me)

Simply in the driver's seat, without anything connected. Shouldn't the rev counter move a bit when cranking ??
As far as I remember starter motor provide something like 400 rpm. To be honest I didn't pay attention to that specific point during 11 year of ownership and troublefree starting.

What surprised me and I forgot to mention was that Electric Power Steering started to give assistance under cranking....:idea:
I don't know if it is RPM related (in this case, the sensor is potentially OK) , alternator related, or rely on something else ??

Best regards
Sebastien
 
Last edited:
MES readings
 

Attachments

  • capture.png
    capture.png
    54.5 KB · Views: 60
  • capture_2.png
    capture_2.png
    78.9 KB · Views: 67
Last edited:
Dear all,

Spent 1/2 hr with MES on the Stilo. still NO DTC....

- Fuel pressure seems OK when cranking for approx. 10 sec. (>370b), max rpm shows around 300 (NOT zero...:cry:) so CKP (cranshaft) sensor seems in working order. (see attached pic) unless CPS (Camshaft) is used here to provide the rpm...

- KEY, Immo etc... everything seems OK, both on EDC15 and Body Computer

- "Capacitor voltage" was > 75V, so the power stage of ECU seems OK to activate the injector solenoids

- Performed a CAN check, all computers are present

On the supid things side:

- I noticed that actual air flow ("Intake air qty") reading was >3700 mg/i.... AT REST, engine stopped !! :mad: I don't know what is the usual reading with IGN ON and engine stopped but as far as logic applies I guess you should read something around Zero (engine stopped ...!) unless you're blown by a typhoon...Expected by EMS is 400...

But anyway, even before hooking MES to the vehicle, I made several starting attempts w/o the MAF and the result was the same : NO start
10 years ago, I had some issues with the MAF (low power) and i drove 1 full year with the MAF disconnected without any issue. So this cannot :mad: be the problem (smoke control only).

Tommorrow, I'll try to change the TDC sensor, but with no real expectation. Nearly sure the problem will still be present, as I'm currently fumbling in the dark (n)

The next step will be to test if the injectors are driven or not when cranking. As absolutely nothing happens (no firing even on a single cylinder, no smoke, no odour in exhaust), I suppose they are not. I have all the equipment to perform the test. Unfortunately it is located miles away from home.


BTW, I made some checkings
EPS (steering) depends on ALT output, not RPM.. So it's OK to have power steering when cranking, as long as the alternator is providing charging current. (Ualt>Ubat) No Rpm reading is involved here. (which was an hypothesis)

Regards
Sebastien
 
Last edited:
Nice tests done.
I put my money on the cam sensor being the culprit.

Although this is a diesel on my 2.4 the problem were the cam sensor.
 
Check anti run on flap in intake has not jammed shut , this would cut off all air from engine. Never heard of this happening on jtd but is not uncommon on vw/Audi

Sensible to check cam sensor

The rpm needle on dash does not always move while cranking even with good crank sensor
 
Last edited:
Re: Stilo JTD died and won't start anymore

jackwhoo said:
Check anti run on flap in intake has not jammed shut , this would cut off all air from engine. Never heard of this happening on jtd but is not uncommon on vw/Audi

Sensible to check cam sensor

The rpm needle on dash does not always move while cranking even with good crank sensor
Click to expand...

Jackwhoo,

I forgot to mention but it was one of the first checks.
Return spring is firm. The actuator rod is in "Open" position (at least from outside), and everything moves freely under finger; no jaming or hard spot

BTW , the flap is activated (closed) only during engine shut-OFF. When not energized, the resting position is Full throttle, under the spring tension.

For the peace of mind, I should unbolt the induction pipe to check wheter the flap is correct or not, from inside.


About Cam sensor, my own experience related to EDC15 and EDC16 (applied on other brands than FIAT) is that the engine do NOT need the cam sensor when running. It's primary role is to tell which cylinder to fire - as both #1 and #4 are at TDC simultaneously - during cranking phase.
Once engine is running...1-3-4-2-1-3-4-2-1-3 ......CMP is not needed anymore. Even for starting, phase, with cam sensor missing, ECU will try #1 then #1 again next turn etc.. until engine starts and run on all 4 cylindres. It will just take a longer time under starter motor.

As my engine died suddenly, I'm really skeptical about CMP being involved in the issue.

BTW, some japanese petrol engines can run on CMP (cam) sensor only, as a limp in mode. Accuracy of ignition is not that good but still far better than mechanical distributors in use until the 80ies :D


Best regards
Sebastien
 
Last edited:
Abarth L said:
Nice tests done.
I put my money on the cam sensor being the culprit.

Although this is a diesel on my 2.4 the problem were the cam sensor.
Click to expand...


Abarth L,

Thank you for your post
What was the symptom on the 5 banger, due to CMP failure??
 
Last edited:
I drove to the shop and parked, when I came out car did not want to start at all, it will spin but not start.
So I tested the 3 things required ( fuel, timing & spark )
So in my case no spark and the source of the spark is the primary sensing device. (Cam sensor)
 
sprint750 said:
Abarth L,

Thank you for your post
What was the symptom on the 5 banger, due to CMP failure??
Click to expand...
I unplugged the cam shaft sensor on a 2003 1.9 jtd and attempted to start it multiple times, it would not start.

From memory the cam sensor is a hall effect sensor with three wires.

Good luck, please keep us informed.
 
varesecrazy said:
Have you decided if its injecting the fuel its pressurising..??

You say its cranking well enough to build reasonable rail pressure.. but seemed to think no fuel was passing the pistons
Click to expand...

Unfortunately I don't know how to check this without equipment.
If you have any idea or procedure to do so ?

Everythingis not that simple today, as all my equipment and tooling are miles away from home (but no way to get there...Stilo is my daily and only driver) workshop is the street and you're alone (children are on holidays with wifey).

So for the moment I'll focus on the CKP sensor (usual suspect) and if not OK, I'll engage 2nd gear... with further testing and dismantling.

- I reiceved the brand new part yesterday (BOSCH 0 281 002 603, equivalent to FIAT 46798352)

- I got access to the CKP sensor to check it was the correct type : OK, ePer based on VIN Input was right... I insisted as my parts dealer database said 100% sure the cable version that should be ordered :p. Saved time and a dispute.
- Sensor is now disconnected (not easy), and for the moment I need the RIBE drive. I tried with a 6mm Hex and moderate effort, but it was tightened firmly, so I gave up. I didn't want to take any risk considering the poor access. If the screw gets damaged for any reason, you'll have to take the engine out.:bang:.

Of course I'll keep you informed,

Best regards
Sebastien
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

T
General Stilo Dynamic 1.9 JTD 2005 Parts
Replies
0
Views
108
TomLow
T
M
  • Question
Technical Stilo 1.9 JTD Flywheel issue
Replies
6
Views
685
bugsymike
B
C
Technical Stilo wont start - Fuse Blown
Replies
2
Views
388
chap74
C
A
  • Solved
Technical Car won't turn off
Replies
14
Views
260
AndyRKett
AndyRKett
L
Technical Fiat stilo 1.6 DTC P0230 and U1706 engine doesn't start, help?
Replies
0
Views
186
lukasrn82
L
Back
Top