Technical Stilo 1,4 timing marks

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Technical Stilo 1,4 timing marks

JariR

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My 1.4 -07 Stilo is not starting any more. One day I was starting it, it just tried to start once and then just cranking. Cranking sound is now little bit strange and I'm afraid the timing belt has jumped one or more steps off, has there been this kind of issues with these engines? Timing belt is not snapped, that I've already investigated. Is there some original timing marks somewhere on 1,4 Stilo engines? It would be great if there would be image of this marks if there are any.

If timing belt has jumped one or two steps off, does it mean that the valves are already damaged?
 
From what you say, I can't envisage a failure mode which would allow the belt to say jump a few teeth, but then continue to function. Okay a knackered belt can shred a number of teeth, but if it did it wouldn't move when cranking (assuming its not broken and does move when cranking :)).

Consequently I would look to another cause, starting with fuel, ignition and compression.
 
The belt is moving when cranking, I took the belt cover away to see the belt clearly. Cranking sound is not metallic sound and there wasn't that kind of sounds when problem appeared first time. Cranking sounds fast, like it is missing pressures.
 
Definitely, I've to take it into garage first someway. I'm pretty sure that there has happened something related issue and that's why I'm asking, is there any original marks in these engines where to compare current positions of pulleys? Also I'm beforehand interested, can there be big damages already if it has jumped a teeth or two, is there any reason to play with it anymore? Or should I just send it straight to nail factory. :D
 
It seems to be 16v engine. :/ I looked under the belt cover again and I was hardly able to see some white marks on cam pulley and on head, these are possibly did by earlier mechanic? I didn't yet get enough visibility to crank shaft pulley to see is there any marks. Hope those will be found there.
 
The most likely thing to go wrong is the most likely thing to go wrong... so let's rewind and start at the beginning before we dismantle the engine... :D

When the engine cranks, do you have a signal at the injectors (and is there fuel being delivered to the fuel rail)? And do you have sparks at the spark plugs?

Engines really don't jump their cam-belt if they can possibly help it. More likely you've lost fuel or sparks or both, for some reason.



Ralf S.
 
.. so let's rewind and start at the beginning before we dismantle the engine... :D do you have a signal at the injectors (and is there fuel being delivered to the fuel rail)?


If the OP has to take it to a Garage to test the compression, I'm pretty sure testing the fuelling would be a step too far :D. Seems to me that his preoccupation with the timing marks and belt may suggest that he and/or a mate have already had a go at changing the belt, cocked it up in the process, and are trying to get it back to where it was before he does anything else :eek:. Well that's my thought of the day :).
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Haven't had time to do better investigation yet and other vehicle is currently filling the space in my garage and outside is too cold to do anything currently. Cam belt is suspected because cranking doesn't sound normal, while it's cranking faster and slower. Sometimes it sounds that it's trying to start running. Fuel pump sounds normal under the backseat but about injectors I can't say anything. The vehicle was washed by pressure washer on the yard a day earlier than this issue appeared. It was moved only couple meters after washing and it was running normally. Next night there was some minus degrees temperature, possibly something freeze and caused the problem or damage.
 
Pressure washer.. oh dear :eek:

Water.. is MORE LIKELY
to cause ELECTRICAL problems ;)

There are instances where water can freeze in the timing belts toothed pulleys.. :(

But I would check electrics 1st..

Maybe tow it to a place that is warmer..

Even a hairdryer.. or hot air gun around motor could help dry a wet connector

Good luck.. let us know what you find :)
 
It won't take long to test whether there is a spark and a signal at the fuel injection.

Spark plug - just connect one of the spark plug leads to an old spark plug and rest the electrode tip on the engine block. Wear rubber gloves/shoes or hold the HT lead in a dry rag so that you can't get earthed yourself... then get someone to crank the engine over. If you can see a spark then the coils are powered and that bit is good.

Fuel injection can be tested by using a glass-bottomed bulb (T5 I think) and bending the metal tangs that are each side of the base so they're straight. The tangs should then fit into one of the plugs on the fuel injectors. As with the spark plug, it doesn't matter which one you choose - whichever is the most accessible. When you crank the engine, the bulb should pulse.

I'd guess water has got into one of the relays on top of or behind the battery box .. so it would be a case of tracking down which one it is and replacing it, or drying out the connections to it. Heating the fuse boxe/relays with a hair dryer might help the beast dry out.

Don't worry about the car making strange noises when it doesn't want to start.. it could be flooded (if the coils aren't firing) or trying to light fresh air with just a hint of fuel in it (if the injectors aren't firing) so it will sound different to usual.


Ralf S.
 
Ok, finally got the vehicle in the garage and first investigations have been done. It seems to be getting fuel since spark plugs were wet after cranking and fuel was smelling. Also spark has been checked for all the plugs and it can be seen clearly in all plugs when cranking.

Did also compression tests for each cylinder and there's possibly something strange: There's compression in all cylinders but the values differs pretty much between cylinders and same cylider gives different values between test turn. I don't know can my meter be a toy or something. Below are values for each cyliders and tests:

Test 1:

4,5 bar ... 3,5 bar .. 9 bar ... 7 bar

Test 2:

9,5 bar ... 12,5 bar ... 7 bar ... 6 bar

I don't know could it be giving this kind values if the cam belt has been jumping a teeth or two. For my understanding it should be jumping all the time to give this kind of values and I believe it's not doing that. I guess my meter is not very accurate.

Noticed that it might be a bigger job to get visibility to cranks shaft pulley or to get lower part of belt cover away. Does it require engine mount removal to get that lower part of cover away?
 
Hi

It looks to me your testing procedure is not correct.

Did you?

1. Only crank for 5 seconds (or 10 seconds)on each cylinder. Must be similar times and not to long!
2. Ensure you blead the excess air in gauge unit before continuing to next cylinder.
3. Have no leaks.
4. If a cylinder reading is way out to previous reading you are doing something wrong.

If your belt were slipping continuously you would hit a valve against a piston and no more engine rotations..
 
Tried again compression testing but still it seems that the values differs a lot between cylinders. I'm afraid that I'm not able to get my meter closely enough to spark plug hole. Cranked for 10 seconds each cylider. This time got values:

12 bar ... 12,5 bar ... 7,5 bar ... 5,5 bar

Also finally got lower part of belt cover away and got visibility to crank shaft pulley. I believe I was able to find marks that someone has earlier did there. Rotated cam shaft to old marks and checked what crank shaft pulley says then. I would say that I'm able to see it is in marks then:

attachment.php

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Maybe it hasn't been jumping?
 

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Hi

Great, test 3 confirm that cylinder 3 & 4 are consistent.
And also cylinder 1 & 2 are confirmed.
1.2 bar for cylinder 1 & 2 is good.

Timing is good or else none would have been good.

Your problem lay with cylinder 3 & 4.
1. Either worn rings. ( Unlikely due to 1 & 2's good condition )
2. Head gasket between cylinder 3 & 4 leaking.
3. Valves burned by both cylinder 3 & 4.

However for valves to burn you need to pass oil.

So I suggest you do a wet test on cylinder 3 & 4.
Throw a teaspoon of oil into the spark plug hole and repeat the test.
If pressure increase:
1. It is the piston rings.
2. If it stay the same it is gasket or valves.
 
News of the day: After well slept night I continued compression tests for 3 and 4 cylinders (not sure are these official numbers for the cylinders, but two closest cylinders of LH front wheel). First tested without oiling the cylinders and those returned 6-7 bars. Then I added a little bit oil to these cylinders and did measurement again, when I got about 9 bar pressure from both.

Without new ideas I decided to rebuild most of uninstalled stuff to get engine in running state again. After rebuild I decided to try engine starting again even I was pretty sure that nothing new will not happen. At this time on first cranking turn the engine suddenly started running. At first it wasn't running very well, sounded like there's almost one dead cylinder and it was also smoking pretty much. After couple of seconds engine idle became normal. I let it run idle for a while and tried to listen its sound. I think I'm able to hear some light knocking sound but I'm not sure has it been having it earlier. I took it out of the garage and let it run while engine temperature was in normal state. Also stopped and started the engine couple of times and drove some meters around the yard and everything seems to be working normally except for that small knocking sound from the engine.

But anyway: It seems that I can confirm that the cam belt hasn't been jumping in my case.
 
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Glad it is running again.
What did you rebuild / replace?
 
Glad it is running again.
What did you rebuild / replace?

Nothing was replaced, only rebuilt uninstalled stuff back. This is a mystery for me. Of course I was shaking a little bit all connectors in engine room. There's also fifth connector on the middle of valve cover, looking pretty much same than spark plug connectors, what is it for? And of course it was kept hood open in warm garage for several hours... :confused:

For me it sounds that there cannot be very big mechanical failure in the engine, since it is running now.
 
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