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Old 08-08-2018   #91
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Re: Valeo clutch & Gearbox replacement

Hi folks
Got another prob with this motor. Altho she's not back on the ground yet, I've been starting her up and running the engine from time to time, but today she wouldn't start. The battery is ok, but the starter motor didn't even turn, not even a little bit. Only activity when I turn the key was what sounded kind of like the intermittent chirp of a grass cricket from what I think is the area of the battery/ fuse box area.
Any ideas,anyone?
Thanks in advance.
Cheers
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Old 09-08-2018   #92
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Re: Valeo clutch & Gearbox replacement

When you pulled the starter motore out, to remove the bell-housing, did you loosen it and not tighten the electrical cables (particularly the earth)?

Or did you just unbolt it and not touch the electrics? It's worth a check that when you pulled the starter away from the housing that a cable didn't get bent, de-ranged or shorted out against the engine block (the latter would have blown a fuse though).

The starter is controlled by a relay.. so that may have decided to just pack up.. but that would be a bit coincidental.

Meanwhile, I looked up what the chirp of a "grass cricket" sounds like. I presume you mean a Roesel's bush cricket... rather than a Meadow Grasshopper, in which case that does point at the noise coming from a relay.

The relay itself could be knacked or it could just be not actuating well/fast enough because of a weak battery. I'd charge up the battery even if it's reporting 12.3V... it could have lost some cranking power, even if the volts are still holding up.

Ralf S.
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Old 09-08-2018   #93
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Re: Valeo clutch & Gearbox replacement

Thanks Ralph S.
I will check the electrical connections to the starter motor, altho I had dismissed this a bit because I hadn't disconnected the wiring from the motor when doing the gbox, just unbolted it and put it up out of the way, plus she's been firing up fine every time since the re-assemble.
I didn't actually test the battery as such, when I say that it is ok, that was from the point of view that all of the electrics seem to be working a they should - instrument panel showing fine and headlights nice and bright, and so on. Plus, initially I did think that there might possibly be an issue with this, so did the jump start thing, so should have been getting enough power?
From what you say might be the relay? Yes, it would be co-incidental, but its strange how often co-incidences do occur. Plus I've been severely rasselling about with the battery box, fuse tray and all of that recently, so don't know if that would have had some effect.
Cheers and thanks again.
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Old 09-08-2018   #94
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Re: Valeo clutch & Gearbox replacement

Apart from the solenoid mounted on the starter motor, there are no relays in the starter circuit.

Check that the large black cable from the battery -ve terminal is clean and tight where it bolts to the top of the gearbox. If it's loose, it could produce an arcing sound from below the engine fuse box.

City boy.... so I've no idea what insect noise that would sound like.
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Old 09-08-2018   #95
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How folks.
So the connections to the starter motor and the battery earth at the gbox all seem fine. Took the battery out and gave it a charge up, so the green light is showing on it, so that's ok. But things have gone from bad to worse - put the battery back in, still not starting but everything else as it should be. The buzz/ clicky noise was coming from the two relays (?) near the battery - the red and the black ones shown in the picture which correspond to T09 and T10 on the battery box lid and show a diagram which looks something like the engine management light on the dash. But now there seems to be some sort of almost total electrical failure - even when I open the door the courtesy lights don't come on and the dash doesn't come to life. The only sign of life at all is when I turn the key the airbag fault light comes on, nothing else happens at all, apart from that everything is totally dead.
Any ideas, anyone, at all?
Cheers.
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Old 09-08-2018   #96
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Re: Valeo clutch & Gearbox replacement

Have you replaced the black master fuse board on top of the battery? According to the wiring diagram, there should be a red 125 Amp fuse next to the orange 150 Amp one. It looks as though there's never been one there in your picture.

The 125 Amp fuse supplies the ignition switch (H1) via the 20 Amp maxi fuse (F3, the large yellow one in the grey fuse box). If there's no power to the ignition switch, then the starter motor won't engage and turn.

Check that you have 12v both sides of fuse F3 with or without the ignition switched on. There are test points on top of the fuse, so you don't need to remove it to test for 12v.
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Old 10-08-2018   #97
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Re: Valeo clutch & Gearbox replacement

Blimey! Where's all your wiring gone?

I seem to have a billion, if not thousands more wires in my battery box. They hardly fit.
Gerrard is an Active Air (which is ironic, since it's not "active" at all) JTD though...

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Old 10-08-2018   #98
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Re: Valeo clutch & Gearbox replacement

Hi Davren

No, havent done anything with the black master fuse board at all (except rumble it about a bit, along with all the other gubbins in that area, when taking out/putting back before/after replacing the gbox). So, given that the car was running fine without the additional fuse to which you refer, before she was taken off the road and after re-assembly, I was surprised that this might be a thing, but I will certainly do the tests that you recommend. Ill also have a wee swatch at whats on the other Stilo, which might give me a clue as to what should be. TBH, anythings worth a try.

Im also going to try a different battery in it (Ive got a bigger, newish one in an old Volvo I have), to see if that will make any difference. The one that is in this Stilo is less than a year old and Im fairly confident that its well charged up since the green light is showing on it and when I had it on the mains charger after a few hours the charger showed negligible charging input. But, who knows, over the last few months there have been extended spells when the battery has not been in use, so you never know, and I am aware that strange things can happen with Stilo electrics when the power input is a bit not what it should be.

In relation to my previous post, do you think that the clicky/buzzy noise from the two relays (which has now stopped, along with everything else), has anything to do with things? And if so, I was thinking that I could maybe swap them over with what Im pretty sure are the same relays in other stations on the same board to see if that has any effect on the basis that the two that were making the noise are located in ports which are designated on the battery cover lid with an engine management type symbol are important to the core functioning of the engine/system (?), whilst others are for less vital operations (for the purpose of this exercise, at least), like fans. Does that sound like something I could try, do you think, or am I way off track and talking bo*****s (as usual)?

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Old 17-08-2018   #99
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Re: Valeo clutch & Gearbox replacement

It was the battery which was responsible for the "total electrical failure"- tried a bigger one from the old Volvo which I made sure was fully charged, and things have come back to life. I was duped into thinking that the old battery which was in the car was fine cos the green light was showing on it (and I had had it on the charger for a while). It was a cheapie off eBay, so lesson learnt. Unfortunately, while that in itself is very much a relief, the starter is still not turning, so back to the start (or not as the case may be!) on that side of things.......
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Old 06-09-2018   #100
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Re: Valeo clutch & Gearbox replacement

Hi guys
Apologies, back on again about the non start issue. Have swapped the starter motor, but still not a sniff of an attempt to turn over, which didn't really surprise me since it doesn't feel like a starter fault. To add to that I'm now getting the "check vehicle protection system" message on the dash. It's intermittent but even when not showing there's still no attempt to turn the starter. Did a wee bit of mooching around the web on the VPS message thing and sorry to say haven't seen anything where anybody has found a clear solution to this issue which as far as I can understand is an immobilized problem. Any ideas anyone? Electrics wise everything else seems fine since the battery thing was sorted. Must admit, now feeling a bit dumped by it all, particularly given all the work I've put into this wee car to replace the gearbox over the last few months.

Davren - I can't detect any voltage across the F3 fuse (take it that the test is to place the multimeter pointers on the circular holes on the top of the fuse?).
Grateful for any comments at all.
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Old 06-09-2018   #101
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Re: Valeo clutch & Gearbox replacement

sorry if you already know this:
the immobiliser is generally an RFID in the keyfob, powered by a coil surrounding the ignition lock. Have you removed this coil, damaged the wiring to it, or damaged the key fob in any way?
Am also wondering if the battery failing could make the car loose the RFID code the keyfob gives out when powered by the coil, but i dont know enough to advise you
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Old 07-09-2018   #102
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Re: Valeo clutch & Gearbox replacement

Mytheroo
Thanks for the reply. Yeah, was aware (from trawling the web and on here) how the immobilizer is set up. I have the two keys for the car and neither work. I haven't disturbed the coil at the ignition or damaged it as far as I am aware (haven't had the steering column cowling off until I tried wiggling about the wires under there, since I had seen something on the web where this had worked for someone). Like you I did wonder if the battery issue over the last few months when the car has been sitting idle may be the cause, since it seems that low battery strength can lead to strange electrical effects on the Stilo. My worry is that there it's no economically viable way to fix this and so she will be scrap, particularly since I've just sent a number of hundreds of pounds and lots of time replacing the gearbox.....😖
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Old 07-09-2018   #103
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Re: Valeo clutch & Gearbox replacement

If the immobilisor is activated you would see a "key" symbol or similar on the dash which (I think) flashes when you crank it over.

In any case, the immobilsor doesn't work by deactivating the starter... since a potential "future classic" car thief with good taste would just roll your Stilo down a hill and bump start it. Immobilisor cuts fuel and sparks.

My sister has a Renoort Megane Coope which is a third car after her hubby decided he wanted a new SuV even though they already have a Murano which he "handed down".. Long story and plenty of familial bickering followed.. but the Megane occasionally goes "flat" and loses its immobilisor code. As above, the light flashes when you crank the engine over (having charged the battery) but the beast does turn over, it just doesn't start.

As an aside, Renoort main dealer can reset the code when my sister gets the car towed the 500 yards (they won't come out... "too far" <sigh!> ) and brings the key with her. It's a PITA more than a financial disaster.

So.. no turning over at the starter is another problem. Does the starter have any supply? I'd start at the fusebox (since it's attached to the battery and the whole lot came out when you did the gearbox). There's plenty of scope for a lost/blown connection.


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Old 07-09-2018   #104
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Re: Valeo clutch & Gearbox replacement

Thanks again Ralph S.

*

The padlock symbol does show on the dash display, but it comes on with the ignition (ie I don't need to turn the key to the cranking position), and the dash display runs through the check sequence, including the "Check Vehicle Protection System" message. Indeed, when the ignition is on, apart from the CVPS message and the padlock symbol everything else seems normal (including what I think is the fuel pump priming?).

*

The CVPS message/padlock symbol/immobiliser thing is a bit intermittent (ie sometimes the CVPS message and padlock comes up and sometimes they don't), and while from what you say this and the non start thing may be different issues (which is badder than being the same issue cos its two things to fathom and sort out rather than one), I did wonder if they are related since when I say intermittent, I think there might be a sort of resetting thing goes on somewhere in all of this (but not sure how I am achieving that). So starting point is turn ignition on (but not to cranking position) and there are no warning lights or messages about CVPS, I then turn the key further to activate the starter the starter does nothing but at this point the CVPS/padlock symbol comes on. I turn ignition off and back on, even a number of times, and the CVPS/padlock is still there. Later on I turn the ignition on and the warnings etc have disappeared again try to start the car and they re-appear, and so on. But cant remember whether it is disconnecting and reconnecting the battery for a while, or simply just leaving things alone for a while, which triggers the reset (if that is what it is), Ill try check on that later So, think what Im saying is that maybe the immobiliser kicks in as the result of some problem with the starting circuit, and maybe fixing the latter will resolve the former? Probably just wishful thinking

*

I dont really know, but think you are right about the starter not getting a power supply (on the basis that as far as I can make out the starter does absolutely nothing when I turn the key to crank it over). Do you think that this might be the same line of thought that Davren mentioned with the F3 fuse and on that, am I testing the fuse the right way? Other than that what would be the way to test supply to the starter motor (at the starter motor end, if you see what I meanand then I could track back from there as necessary?) those wires to the starter look thick, so in my ignorance Im a wee bit nervous about how to safely test for the supply coming in?

*

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Old 08-09-2018   #105
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Re: Valeo clutch & Gearbox replacement

Hello again. Latest on this to see if anyone has any ideas. So, done the testing bit (I think) and showing around 12.8/13 volts across all of the fuses and also at the starter motor. Had the fuse/relay box out and couldn't see anything obviously broken or disconnected or out of place.
In relation to the CVPS warning, a couple of things. When the warning is showing on the dash display the red relay TO9 buzzes or click click clicks. Other thing is that the CVPS message seems to be cancelled off by switching on the main beam headlamps - weird but kind of reminded me of a message I had on Facebook from a chap who said that he had had a non start problem with an abarth (not necessarily with the CVPS thing also going on), but it had been solved by flashing the main beam when the buzzing was happening - problem was "a cross over between the starter and main beam relays", seemingly.
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