Technical Valeo clutch & Gearbox replacement

Currently reading:
Technical Valeo clutch & Gearbox replacement

sorry if you already know this:
the immobiliser is generally an RFID in the keyfob, powered by a coil surrounding the ignition lock. Have you removed this coil, damaged the wiring to it, or damaged the key fob in any way?
Am also wondering if the battery failing could make the car loose the RFID code the keyfob gives out when powered by the coil, but i dont know enough to advise you
 
Mytheroo
Thanks for the reply. Yeah, was aware (from trawling the web and on here) how the immobilizer is set up. I have the two keys for the car and neither work. I haven't disturbed the coil at the ignition or damaged it as far as I am aware (haven't had the steering column cowling off until I tried wiggling about the wires under there, since I had seen something on the web where this had worked for someone). Like you I did wonder if the battery issue over the last few months when the car has been sitting idle may be the cause, since it seems that low battery strength can lead to strange electrical effects on the Stilo. My worry is that there it's no economically viable way to fix this and so she will be scrap, particularly since I've just sent a number of hundreds of pounds and lots of time replacing the gearbox.....?
 
If the immobilisor is activated you would see a "key" symbol or similar on the dash which (I think) flashes when you crank it over.

In any case, the immobilsor doesn't work by deactivating the starter... since a potential "future classic" car thief with good taste would just roll your Stilo down a hill and bump start it. Immobilisor cuts fuel and sparks.

My sister has a Renoort Megane Coope which is a third car after her hubby decided he wanted a new SuV even though they already have a Murano which he "handed down".. :D Long story and plenty of familial bickering followed.. :D but the Megane occasionally goes "flat" and loses its immobilisor code. As above, the light flashes when you crank the engine over (having charged the battery) but the beast does turn over, it just doesn't start.

As an aside, Renoort main dealer can reset the code when my sister gets the car towed the 500 yards (they won't come out... "too far" <sigh!> ) and brings the key with her. It's a PITA more than a financial disaster.

So.. no turning over at the starter is another problem. Does the starter have any supply? I'd start at the fusebox (since it's attached to the battery and the whole lot came out when you did the gearbox). There's plenty of scope for a lost/blown connection.


Ralf S.
 
Thanks again Ralph S.

*

The padlock symbol does show on the dash display, but it comes on with the ignition (ie I don't need to turn the key to the cranking position), and the dash display runs through the check sequence, including the "Check Vehicle Protection System" message. Indeed, when the ignition is on, apart from the CVPS message and the padlock symbol everything else seems normal (including what I think is the fuel pump priming?).

*

The CVPS message/padlock symbol/immobiliser thing is a bit intermittent (ie sometimes the CVPS message and padlock comes up and sometimes they don't), and while from what you say this and the non start thing may be different issues (which is badder than being the same issue ‘cos it’s two things to fathom and sort out rather than one), I did wonder if they are related since when I say intermittent, I think there might be a sort of resetting thing goes on somewhere in all of this (but not sure how I am achieving that). So starting point is turn ignition on (but not to cranking position) and there are no warning lights or messages about CVPS, I then turn the key further to activate the starter – the starter does nothing but at this point the CVPS/padlock symbol comes on. I turn ignition off and back on, even a number of times, and the CVPS/padlock is still there. Later on I turn the ignition on and the warnings etc have disappeared again – try to start the car and they re-appear, and so on. But can’t remember whether it is disconnecting and reconnecting the battery for a while, or simply just leaving things alone for a while, which triggers the “reset” (if that is what it is), I’ll try check on that later………… So, think what I’m saying is that maybe the immobiliser kicks in as the result of some problem with the starting circuit, and maybe fixing the latter will resolve the former? Probably just wishful thinking…………

*

I don’t really know, but think you are right about the starter not getting a power supply (on the basis that as far as I can make out the starter does absolutely nothing when I turn the key to crank it over). Do you think that this might be the same line of thought that Davren mentioned with the F3 fuse – and on that, am I testing the fuse the right way? Other than that what would be the way to test supply to the starter motor (at the starter motor end, if you see what I mean……and then I could track back from there as necessary……?) – those wires to the starter look thick, so in my ignorance I’m a wee bit nervous about how to safely test for the supply coming in?

*

Cheers
 
Hello again. Latest on this to see if anyone has any ideas. So, done the testing bit (I think) and showing around 12.8/13 volts across all of the fuses and also at the starter motor. Had the fuse/relay box out and couldn't see anything obviously broken or disconnected or out of place.
In relation to the CVPS warning, a couple of things. When the warning is showing on the dash display the red relay TO9 buzzes or click click clicks. Other thing is that the CVPS message seems to be cancelled off by switching on the main beam headlamps - weird but kind of reminded me of a message I had on Facebook from a chap who said that he had had a non start problem with an abarth (not necessarily with the CVPS thing also going on), but it had been solved by flashing the main beam when the buzzing was happening - problem was "a cross over between the starter and main beam relays", seemingly.
Cheers
 
a buzzing or clicking relay is either a sign of low voltage getting to the relay, or a bad relay. Have you changed any relays? Do you have 2 the same to swap test?
 
Hi Mytheroo
I did swap it over with one of the others and it was still the same, unfortunately. So low voltage to the relay - do you think that the system is sending low voltage to it because this is how the immobilizer works (this relay is in one of the ports which is identified on the battery cover with what looks to me to be a kind of engine symbol?)? Spose there is a logic to that but not sure what the relationship is between the T09 relay and the starter motor. Or do you think that there is some other cause for the low voltage which in turn is triggering the immobilizer? And still haven't a clue why the CVPS message and symbol come up intermittently and seem to be able to be cancelled by putting the main beams on (until I turn the key from ignition to crank position, at which point they come back on again).
Thanks
 
i think I'd be pulling the relays and checking them directly on a 12v supply, and also testing the input voltage to the relays if they check out fine on the bench. Ideally with them installed, and probing the contacts, but i'm not sure if that is feasible in your case.
The other weirdness isn't triggering a hypothesis in my mind, but keep posting what happens as you never know what the trigger will be for one of us :)
 
Your adventures would be quite amusing if it wasn't so serious/a right PITA.

So to recap;

1) It all used to be okay.

2) All of a sudden (while you were waiting for the wishbone to be fitted) coinciding with a flat battery, it didn't start.

3) The starter has power to it... but it doesn't crank.

4) The fuses are good.

5) The relays "buzz" when you attempt to crank it (but swapping them around makes no difference).

6) The "key" symbol comes on when you crank it... but you can clear it by flashing main beam.


I think battery power, the fuses and the starter are all okay, so no need to spend any more time on those.

The relays must also be okay, unless they all failed at the same time - which is spectacularly improbable. So don't worry about them either.

The buzzing relays could be a residual low voltage (we have CANBUS after all) reaching them instead of the full current when you crank it , since at that stage the car thinks it's "immobilised".

It may be that Stilo immobilisor works by depriving power to the starter (as well as, or in addition to other actions... ) so the starter not turning could be a symptom of the immobilisor/Vehicle Protection System.

> Out of curiosity, when you crank it with the CVPS/key symbol flashing... do you get fuel being delivered at the fuel rail? If there's nothing coming out, then that would "prove" the immobilisor is doing something.

The Immobilisor is a code in an EPROM chip that sits on the Body Control Module (behind the fuse box, under the lower right dashboard ). The BCM also controls the high beam... the signal from the stalk gets routed to the blue light, and separately to the lights themselves... so the stalk doing something to the CVPS light is not entirely strange.

It's pointing to the "problem" being on the BCM. I suspect (as with my sister's Megane) that the key and the immobilisor have become de-coupled from each other. Her Megane (which is pre-CANBUS) turns over while the CVPS light flashes but if Stilo doesn't turn over, then that may be just "a difference". The problem could be the same.

If it was me, I'd next look at getting the key re-programmed to the ECU. My sister takes her car to the local Renoort garage (a 500m tow from the friendly AA man)... but there are mobile services if your Fiat dealer can't/won't do it without a red-key/£1500 and a new lock set etc.

Some of the geezers hack the immobilisor (removing the immobilisor function) which is great for never having immobilisor problems ever again... but it leaves the car not immobilised, if you/your insurance company finds out/is bothered about such things, so check what they do before you hire one of them.


Ralf S.
 
Hi Guys

*

Just in case it makes any difference to the analysis---

*

“5) The relays "buzz" when you attempt to crank it (but swapping them around makes no difference).”* Only the red relay in T09 does the buzzy, clicky thing, and only when the CVPS message and symbol are showing and when the key is at the “ignition on” position – when I turn the key to crank position I think it goes quiet, but I would need to double check on that. There’s no buzzy clicky when the “main beams on” reset thing has worked its magic and the key is sitting at “ignition on”, at which point the dash lights up as it should and the narrative runs through the normal “Checking” routine. Its only when I then try to start the engine, so to speak, that it reverts to the CVPS narrative and padlock symbol.

*

“6) The "key" symbol comes on when you crank it... but you can clear it by flashing main beam”.** Yes, the key symbol and the CVPS narrative shows when I turn the key to cranking position (and afterwards and they continue to show until the “main beams on” reset is done). The reset is achieved by switching on the headlamps main beam for a short time – but just “flashing” the headlights doesn’t seem to achieve the reset.

*

Also, don’t know if it is relevant, but when I got this car, the remote lock/unlock function didn’t work (and still doesn’t).

*

“Out of curiosity, when you crank it with the CVPS/key symbol flashing... do you get fuel being delivered at the fuel rail? If there's nothing coming out, then that would "prove" the immobilisor is doing something”.* Can’t remember, will need to check on that one.

*

Mytheroo – for the sake of completeness, any ideas how I could go about checking the relays in situ – pulling them away from the port enough to squeeze in the multimeter pointers? Or is that just bonkers?*

*

*

Ralf S. – think you are right in that, whatever the problem with this is, it’s something that looks like it’s beyond me, even with the good guidance I’m getting on here, and I would need to get someone else to have a look at it, altho I will keep on at things and maybe someone on here will be able to come up with something. Problem is, towing to a Fiat dealer, or anywhere else, isn’t really an option (it’s 12 miles to the nearest dealer and that road would be a tricky tow at the end of a wire), so an independent mobile guy would need to be the way to go. I might sound out the ballpark cost for that. But it’s another expense to add to what was meant to be (on the back of my long term ownership of another same model Stilo, which has proved to be wonderfully reliable over the last 14 years and even now – shouldn’t tempt fate, I know)* a low cost, fairly straightforward wee bit of an indulgence/hobby. I got her on the basis that she needed a clutch (and some other stuff which I could have done on an as and when really required basis) – which was duly done, but turns out it was a gearbox etc,etc, per the earlier parts of this thread, with all the associated cost/time/work aspects, you get the picture. Not sure if I’ve got the stomach for spending more money on her, with no definite guarantee of a 100% solution (not to mention that I’ve still to get her back on the ground and see if the drive issues mentioned before in this thread turn out ok. And the MOT has now expired……). There’s also the temptation that I could use her as a spares car for my other Stilo. But she is a nice wee thing, and very pleasant to drive (altho’ I have realised that she has the 90hp engine, rather than the 95hp which my other 1.4 Stilo has, and is nowhere near as nippy, but in compensation has a more gently nature….) , only 73K miles, and Stilos are becoming a pretty unusual sight on the roads these days (round my way at least), so there’s that side of things as well. Another one to mull over.

Cheers
 
are these relays in the driver footwell? If so its probably not feasible to test them in situ, need to get access to the underside of whatever they plug into is my feeling (without going and looking).
I'm just offering that if it was me, i'd want to see if the relay was being "told" to buzz or if it was "choosing" to do it off its own back.
It's possible to wrap a wire around the 12v pin and another wire around the ground pin, making sure they don't touch any other pins, then you could plug it in and put a scope or meter on the wire.
Out of interest, cranking with the red relay removed, do you get the immobiliser light? if so, does high beam still turn it off?
 
Some long shots while you're having a cuppatea/mulling over/waiting for the key guy to show up:

Is the transponder dibber-dobber inside the steering column, that reads the key and tells the immobilisor if it's any good or not, working okay?

If you have not been anywhere near the steering column during your work then it's safe to assume that nothing has been disturbed and it's actually all okay.. (so don't waste time on it).. but if you've dismantled stuff around there, then it might be loose/disconnected or be having some other kind of problem. The transponder has a yellow plug on Punto models.. I think I've seen the same on my Stilo.

Also check the fuses inside the "right knee" fuse compartment too, in case something else on that circuit blew a fuse that supplies the reader.

On the off-chance that it's the key that has turned ginger... (you never know... :D ) do you have a spare key to try starting it with instead?

It sounds like the immobilisor is working consistently, if that's any consolation. It only comes over all moody/CVPS when you crank it, resets when you turn off the ignition or turn on the headlamps (probably re-cycling the BUS) and lets go of the relays when you're not attempting to start the car. If you're not getting fuel at the fuel rail either, then that would be perfect.

I dunno how much the mobile locksmiths cost. From memory Renoort charges my sister about £80 to re-flash her key... so it might not be tooooo severe to try it, now that you've come this far. The only good thing about problems like this is that the next time you have anything similar, you'll have a extra heap of experience to help you fix it, so it's none of it wasted... :)

Ralf S.
 
Hi guys

*

In my car the relays which I have been referring to are located on a board next to the battery along with various fuses and are housed in the so called “battery box” (there’s a picture of the set up earlier in this thread), so, in a general sense access to them isn’t a problem if you need to replace them etc. However, getting access to test them in situ might be a tad more challenging, cos the connectors are fully implanted into the board – this was my thought about pulling them away from the board just far enough to get the multimeter pointers in (but still making connection), or alternatively, as you suggest, using a temporary wire arrangement somehow might offer a bit more physical flexibility. I’ll also have a look to see if somethings do-able from the underside of the relay/fuse board.

*

Take it that I’m only really dealing here with those relays which are relevant (again see previous picture on this thread of the battery box lid which provides the key for the fuses and relays) – so that I’m looking at T02 – main beams (cos of the main beam reset thing?), T09 (which is shown as an engine type symbol and is the one doing the buzzy clicky thing, but I don’t know what function it controls, but I get the feeling that the nature of the symbol is that it’s something kind of critical system wise), T10 (which is another engine type symbol, and again I don’t know what function it controls, but again feel it’s something system related) and T05 (cos I don’t know what it is, but it might be relevant). The others as far as it seems to me I either don’t have (eg headlamp wash) or I don’t think are relevant (eg horn) – or do you think that there would be any merit in just doing them all?

*

“Out of interest, cranking with the red relay removed, do you get the immobiliser light? if so, does high beam still turn it off?” – I will try this (along with the other things suggested by Ralf S.) when its dry and I have the chance to get back to it, and report back……..

*

Just to confirm, no, I didn’t muck about with the transponder at the steering column before all of this happened. I only opened it up to wiggle things around a few days ago cos somebody on the web said that worked for them…….. I’ve also tried both keys and neither of them work. I will also check the fuses at the right knee, you never know.

*

Cheers and again thanks very much for the input and moral support.
 
so, you mentioning other fuses, is it worth taking them out etc:

If we are dealing with a low voltage to the relay (5v/7v etc) causing it to buzz, what could be dropping the voltage? Well, a semi-short in a wire, or maybe another relay could be pulling lots of current, and if the wire supplying both relays (the red one and something thats gone doolally) is thin enough, the voltage will sag.
How could you find such a thing? Thermal camera! :-D Maybe an amp clamp/oscilloscope, or maybe pulling out various unneeded relays.
Long shot, but you never know....
 
"When your garage man reassembles the strut with the new spring for you, make sure they have lined up the top cap and bearing surface like this with the point on the cap and the hollow on the top plastic bearing surface all in line with the bottom bolt mounting brackets. If not then they’ll have to do it again as it determines the angle of the top mount in relation to the bottom strut."

Hi all. The above is a quote from the Stilo guide to replacing a front strut. I've been doing a bit of work to reassemble the front left suspension including the new wishbone. However, I notice that the strut that came out (and is going back in) doesn't have the tag and space lined up. Question is - is there a way that i can adjust the set up of the strut to make it as it should be (without having to dismantle the shocker from the spring)? I did check the strut on the other side and while the tag lines up with the rear hole on the bodywork (should be the front one?) the gap isn't in line, and is may be a finger thickness further round. But can't say I noticed any problems with this when the car was on the road previously ie funny noises or strange handling characteristics?
Cheers.
 
So haven't been out at the car over the last week or so for various reasons. But decided to reassemble the front suspension yesterday, which went well (i think), although looks like i will need to refit the strut so that it is properly lined up, see last post, although it is good to have the car back on the ground after all these weeks, even if it is only temporarily. This afternoon turned attention to the non start problem, to follow up some of the comments made on here previously. Easy one first - checked all of the fuses under the dash individually and none of them are blown, all good. However, a couple of things have changed since my last "report". First, the CVPS narrative no longer shows and similarly the padlock symbol goes off when the system has gone thru it's usual "Checking" sequence - even if i turn the key to try to start (which it doesn't, of course). Second thing is that there is no voltage showing across ANY of the fuses on the tray at the battery (previously all were showing health volts). The only stuff that's happened over the last week or so is that I've not touched the car except for a couple of days ago gave the battery a wee boost (out of the car).
Looks like I'm gonna need an auto electrician or at least someone who knows what they are doing to look at it, but that'll depend on the cost side of things. Unless anyone has any other thoughts?
Cheers.
 
Hi guys
Photo of the car that's causing all the bother. Pretty little thing, really........
 

Attachments

  • 20180922_171606.jpg
    20180922_171606.jpg
    5.4 MB · Views: 11
Question is - is there a way that i can adjust the set up of the strut to make it as it should be (without having to dismantle the shocker from the spring)? I did check the strut on the other side and while the tag lines up with the rear hole on the bodywork (should be the front one?) the gap isn't in line, and is may be a finger thickness further round. But can't say I noticed any problems with this when the car was on the road previously ie funny noises or strange handling characteristics?
Cheers.

You're a glutton for punishment fella... :D

Fiat seems to have a penchant for over-long springs .. I guess to provide preload to an otherwise "soft" spring. It's all very commendable but they spoil it a bit by having a not very secure upper spring cup... which together makes fitting new springs a real Mo-Fo of a job.

At the risk of displacing the spring from the cup (spring wants to bend outwards) you can try to compress the spring with spring compressors enough to reduce the force on the cup (but not too much or the spring will try to escape). Stick some Fairy Liquid on the rubber/spring seat to make it all slippery and then (wear thick gloves and eye protection) try to rotate the top mount, although it'll be pretty hard to do. Thinking about it.. also stuff a telephone directory into your underpants. Try not to dislodge the spring from the top mount. It's VERY shallow and doesn't really hold the spring in place except by tension.

I replaced my springs (one of them had half the bottom coil missing) last weekend and it was quite a fraught affair, for all the reasons above. And I didn't have a telephone directory.. :D My notch/slot was perfect on the second damper I did :eek: but the first one just wasn't having it and the notch/slot are aligned okay but about 15 degrees "out" re. the strut mount brackets. It's too early to tell whether it's "okay" or not.. seems to clonk on rebound over speed humps.. but the top mounts, bearings, dampers, drop-links and everything else was new so maybe needs to settle before I loosen it all off and re-tighten it. I don't like the suspension on Stilo.. :D


Ralf S.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top