tessiedog said:

Davren - thanks for that. I will check the size of the flywheel bolts later, but in the meantime it occurs to me that when I removed them they did come away fairly easily ie they were nowhere near as tight as I thought that they would be (I had envisaged a bit of a struggle, but a shortish handled wrench was enough for all of them). So maybe the 4.4 daNM could be right enough?

Click to expand...

Yes, these flywheel bolts are M8, that ties up with eLearn in that respect. So, on that basis, think the 4.4 is what to go with.
Cheers

Nearly in.....

Hi guys
Got the gearbox back in (all the bellhousing to engine bolts are in but still to secure it to the two mountings). But I'm a wee bit worried that I've cocked something up. The lever thing shown in the photo which is operated by the slave cylinder(? again apols for the non tech speak) has little or no resistance when i move it back and forth (I've not got the slave cylinder back on yet). Tbh, think when i took the slave off before removing the old gearbox the lever was like that also, but can't remember for definite, and i can't quite work out whether it should or shouldn't be like that. Very much appreciate any comment on this.
Cheers.

Hi folks
Replacement gbox in, filled up with oil and all the ancilleries connected up and so on. But I'm a bit worried. Car is still up on axle stands cos still to refit left hub and suspension. Started up, which was fine, but first thing I noticed was that i didn't need to depress the clutch to move the gear lever through the gear positions. Pressing the clutch and moving the gear lever through the gear positions does seem to have some effect in terms of what i think is some extent of gear selection - the left side driveshaft housing on the gbox which is still exposed seems to show some reaction to moving through the gears (using the clutch) including spinning in the opposite direction when reverse is engaged. Got a wee video of this but can't seem to upload it. Bit out of my depth here, but something doesn't seem right. Something to do with the clutch, but dont know what - it was a brand new clutch (again) and refit of this and the replacement gbox seemed to go fine. So, again hoping that someone on here will be able to offer some words of wisdom.
Cheers

When you start the engine, do the wheels turn?

Also, when you put it in gear (with or without using the clutch) does letting the clutch out make the wheels turn (i.e. as you would expect)?

You did remember to re-connect the gear cable linkages again, didn't you?

Ralf S.

Hi Ralf S
Thanks for the reply. Yes, the gear linkages have been reconnected and the changing of gears bit seems to be working ok, I think.
The one wheel which is still on (driver's side) doesn't turn at all under any of the scenarios which i described. I'm on holiday at the mo so can't double check things, however, from the best off my recollection, the driveshaft housing on the passenger side does turn (fairly slowly) when the car is in neutral and idling. When i depress the clutch pedal to change gear it stops turning and when i let up the clutch pedal to engage first gear (as u normally would) the housing will again turn but at a faster rate than when in neutral. Same for all six forward gears. When i select reverse its the same ie depress clutch and the housing stops turning, select reverse gear, let clutch up and the housing turns but in the opposite direction (which in itself is all very logical). Thing is, can't be right that gear selection can be done without using the clutch, and also when drive is engaged (per above) it seems not to be that strong (if that makes sense.....). So seems to be engaging drive to some degree but not much, so think that means that the clutch is operating at least to a degree? I did wonder whether i had not reconnected one or other of the gear/ clutch linkages, but TBH not sure what i would particularly be looking for in that respect. Any ideas or suggestions v. much welcomed before I pull it all back out again to see if i can work what's gone wrong.
Cheers

Hmm.... if the clutch and gearbox went on okay and you connected the gear linkages to the gearbox, then it all sounds normal.

You can't really connect the gear linkages badly or incorrectly.. they tend to fit one way and work or not. You can change gear (and see a difference) so they sound fine.

Gearbox we'll assume is fine, since it's changing gear and not making any noises.

So.. in the dock is the clutch. The symptoms are that the clutch is still partially engaged rather than it's not working. I presume the clutch you got looked exactly the same as the one you removed (just newer) and that you fitted the driven plate the right way round (there would have been something written on it such as "Lato Motore" ... which means "Engine side".

If that's all good, then the actuation system might be in the frame. If the release bearing and the rod (inside the housing) are mated together okay, what about the lever (the one that is connected to the slave) that actuates the rod?

It looks like it's fitted to the rod on splines, and secured with a circlip. Is it possible that someone moved/rotated the lever round on the rod (e.g. to make it fit with an under/oversized slave)? You might be able to see some scrape marks on the circlip ears etc.

If it's all dirty and rusted together that it obviously hasn't been touched for 15 years, then this idea might be a red herring. Hopefully you have the same part on the old gearbox for comparison (you haven't chucked the old box away yet, have you?) If you bought a new slave and it all fits with the rod perfectly then that would also cancel out this idea.

If it all looks okay, then before you unmantle anything, it might be easier to assemble it enough to put the wheels on the ground to see how it works. I can't be 100% sure .. but I vaguely remember that I could change gear without the clutch on my old beast (and on the Younger Mrs S's Cinquecento). It could be that with the car in the air and no load anywhere the pieces just move around and don't need the clutch. I would jack mine up and give it a try but my workshop is my old mum's garage and I won't be back there for a few weeks.


Ralf S.

Hi Ralf S.

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Thanks again for the comments.

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Re the clutch – yes pretty certain that the friction disc is correctly placed (basically, the flatter side towards the flywheel and the side which protrudes facing into the pressure plate, which I think is the right way).

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The lever connected to the slave seems to work ok. I used the one that came still attached to the bellhousing, and the slave and the lever seem to be acting as they should (or at least they seem to be doing the same thing as the same parts in my other Stilo are, at least on the exterior of the bellhousing – handy to have a running car for comparison purposes………..). It all seems to fit and move as I think that it should.

*

Strangely though, things seem to have changed a bit. The car has been sitting for a week when I was away on holiday. When I came back and tried it all again, I’m now finding that I can engage 5th and 6th gears and reverse only by using the clutch. Gears 1 to 4 still the same in that I can slip it into these positions without the clutch. Altho’, as before, when in any gear (at least I think it’s in gear……..), there is no hint of stalling at any time when I lift my foot off the throttle (but not sure if that’s something related to the lack of load/resistance – see rambling below).

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I was especially interested in the comments in your last paragraph. The problem I have is that, TBH, I’m really not sure how drive is distributed according to load/resistance (?) between the front wheels (or if indeed that is even thing…..), or how all of that actually works. I did wonder whether all of the drive would go to the side offering the least resistance and so the passenger side with only the inner driveshaft housing attached would get all the drive, and the driver’s side with the wheel, driveshaft and hub still attached getting nothing, which would explain why the driver’s side wheel isn’t rotating at all? Similar to yourself it also crossed my mind that with maybe all of the drive going through the left side with the very low load/resistance factor (?), this could result in me being able to slip through the gear positions without using the clutch. However, no idea what the logic would be behind all of that, and maybe just wishful hoping. And that’s the problem – I don’t really know, and didn’t really want to go ahead and either dismantle it all again when I didn’t have to, or worse still, re-assemble the hub and suspension etc, and find then that it didn’t work with a then even bigger dismantle job. On balance, though, think I’m tending towards the latter, trusting to luck and see what happens.

*

I did think about jacking up the front end of the other Stilo to see how it behaved, but it occurred to me that this wouldn’t be a genuine simulation, cos even if I took the wheel(s) off, that car would still have the driveshaft, hub etc attached, which would offer up a degree of load/resistance?

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Thanks very much again for the input.

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I'm fairly sure you can trust your work. It doesn't sound like anything weird happened when you re-assembled it, so in theory it should all be like Fiat intended it.

You're not that far off being able to check it... Just the driveshaft and the damper to connect up... You don't even need to do up any bolts - just hook the hub/driveshaft back onto the wishbone, stick the damper back bolts in and then it should be able to support itself enough while you to check the gears with the wheel on the ground.

You don't need to re-attach the brake caliper, track rod and wishbone bolts (easy job to just put the pieces where they'll go but not attach the nuts), wheel arch liners, battery box, inlet pipes etc. just to do the test.

I would stuff a big screwdriver handle in between the brake pads though, since you won't be able to resist driving it forwards a few inches and then brake...

I do remember I managed to pop out a brake piston once... probably doing this same test. How I laughed...


Ralf S.

Ralf S.

Thanks for the reply and the practical (and moral!) support, once again.

As you say, I don’t think that there is obviously anything not right with what I’ve done so far, so in theory it should be ok, but s’pose lack of experience is undermining my confidence a bit. But we’ll see how things go when she’s properly back down on the ground.

Unfortunately, I trashed the wishbone to get it out (altho’ the balljoint(?) rubber was well gone so the arm would have to have been replaced anyway for the next MOT, since on mine the balljoint is machined into the arm), so am waiting for a new one to come through before I can re-assemble, but from what you describe, looks like the re-assemble lite option will be reasonably straightforward to enable me to try out. Here’s hoping.

Cheers.

Hi folks
Got another prob with this motor. Altho she's not back on the ground yet, I've been starting her up and running the engine from time to time, but today she wouldn't start. The battery is ok, but the starter motor didn't even turn, not even a little bit. Only activity when I turn the key was what sounded kind of like the intermittent chirp of a grass cricket from what I think is the area of the battery/ fuse box area.
Any ideas,anyone?
Thanks in advance.
Cheers

When you pulled the starter motore out, to remove the bell-housing, did you loosen it and not tighten the electrical cables (particularly the earth)?

Or did you just unbolt it and not touch the electrics? It's worth a check that when you pulled the starter away from the housing that a cable didn't get bent, de-ranged or shorted out against the engine block (the latter would have blown a fuse though).

The starter is controlled by a relay.. so that may have decided to just pack up.. but that would be a bit coincidental.

Meanwhile, I looked up what the chirp of a "grass cricket" sounds like. I presume you mean a Roesel's bush cricket... rather than a Meadow Grasshopper, in which case that does point at the noise coming from a relay.

The relay itself could be knacked or it could just be not actuating well/fast enough because of a weak battery. I'd charge up the battery even if it's reporting 12.3V... it could have lost some cranking power, even if the volts are still holding up.

Ralf S.

Thanks Ralph S.
I will check the electrical connections to the starter motor, altho I had dismissed this a bit because I hadn't disconnected the wiring from the motor when doing the gbox, just unbolted it and put it up out of the way, plus she's been firing up fine every time since the re-assemble.
I didn't actually test the battery as such, when I say that it is ok, that was from the point of view that all of the electrics seem to be working a they should - instrument panel showing fine and headlights nice and bright, and so on. Plus, initially I did think that there might possibly be an issue with this, so did the jump start thing, so should have been getting enough power?
From what you say might be the relay? Yes, it would be co-incidental, but its strange how often co-incidences do occur. Plus I've been severely rasselling about with the battery box, fuse tray and all of that recently, so don't know if that would have had some effect.
Cheers and thanks again.

Apart from the solenoid mounted on the starter motor, there are no relays in the starter circuit.

Check that the large black cable from the battery -ve terminal is clean and tight where it bolts to the top of the gearbox. If it's loose, it could produce an arcing sound from below the engine fuse box.

City boy.... so I've no idea what insect noise that would sound like.
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How folks.
So the connections to the starter motor and the battery earth at the gbox all seem fine. Took the battery out and gave it a charge up, so the green light is showing on it, so that's ok. But things have gone from bad to worse - put the battery back in, still not starting but everything else as it should be. The buzz/ clicky noise was coming from the two relays (?) near the battery - the red and the black ones shown in the picture which correspond to T09 and T10 on the battery box lid and show a diagram which looks something like the engine management light on the dash. But now there seems to be some sort of almost total electrical failure - even when I open the door the courtesy lights don't come on and the dash doesn't come to life. The only sign of life at all is when I turn the key the airbag fault light comes on, nothing else happens at all, apart from that everything is totally dead.
Any ideas, anyone, at all?
Cheers.

Have you replaced the black master fuse board on top of the battery? According to the wiring diagram, there should be a red 125 Amp fuse next to the orange 150 Amp one. It looks as though there's never been one there in your picture.

The 125 Amp fuse supplies the ignition switch (H1) via the 20 Amp maxi fuse (F3, the large yellow one in the grey fuse box). If there's no power to the ignition switch, then the starter motor won't engage and turn.

Check that you have 12v both sides of fuse F3 with or without the ignition switched on. There are test points on top of the fuse, so you don't need to remove it to test for 12v.
.

Blimey! Where's all your wiring gone?

I seem to have a billion, if not thousands more wires in my battery box. They hardly fit.
Gerrard is an Active Air (which is ironic, since it's not "active" at all) JTD though...

Ralf S.

Hi Davren

No, haven’t done anything with the black master fuse board at all (except rumble it about a bit, along with all the other gubbins in that area, when taking out/putting back before/after replacing the gbox). So, given that the car was running fine without the additional fuse to which you refer, before she was taken off the road and after re-assembly, I was surprised that this might be a thing, but I will certainly do the tests that you recommend. I’ll also have a wee swatch at what’s on the other Stilo, which might give me a clue as to what should be. TBH, anything’s worth a try.

I’m also going to try a different battery in it (I’ve got a bigger, newish one in an old Volvo I have), to see if that will make any difference. The one that is in this Stilo is less than a year old and I’m fairly confident that its well charged up since the green light is showing on it and when I had it on the mains charger after a few hours the charger showed negligible charging input. But, who knows, over the last few months there have been extended spells when the battery has not been in use, so you never know, and I am aware that strange things can happen with Stilo electrics when the power input is a bit not what it should be.

In relation to my previous post, do you think that the clicky/buzzy noise from the two relays (which has now stopped, along with everything else), has anything to do with things? And if so, I was thinking that I could maybe swap them over with what I’m pretty sure are the same relays in other stations on the same board to see if that has any effect – on the basis that the two that were making the noise are located in ports which are designated on the battery cover lid with an engine management type symbol are important to the core functioning of the engine/system (?), whilst others are for less vital operations (for the purpose of this exercise, at least), like fans. Does that sound like something I could try, do you think, or am I way off track and talking bo*****s (as usual)?

Cheers

It was the battery which was responsible for the "total electrical failure"- tried a bigger one from the old Volvo which I made sure was fully charged, and things have come back to life. I was duped into thinking that the old battery which was in the car was fine cos the green light was showing on it (and I had had it on the charger for a while). It was a cheapie off eBay, so lesson learnt. Unfortunately, while that in itself is very much a relief, the starter is still not turning, so back to the start (or not as the case may be!) on that side of things.......
Cheers

Hi guys
Apologies, back on again about the non start issue. Have swapped the starter motor, but still not a sniff of an attempt to turn over, which didn't really surprise me since it doesn't feel like a starter fault. To add to that I'm now getting the "check vehicle protection system" message on the dash. It's intermittent but even when not showing there's still no attempt to turn the starter. Did a wee bit of mooching around the web on the VPS message thing and sorry to say haven't seen anything where anybody has found a clear solution to this issue which as far as I can understand is an immobilized problem. Any ideas anyone? Electrics wise everything else seems fine since the battery thing was sorted. Must admit, now feeling a bit dumped by it all, particularly given all the work I've put into this wee car to replace the gearbox over the last few months.

Davren - I can't detect any voltage across the F3 fuse (take it that the test is to place the multimeter pointers on the circular holes on the top of the fuse?).
Grateful for any comments at all.
Cheers