Technical Valeo clutch & Gearbox replacement

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Technical Valeo clutch & Gearbox replacement

re: Valeo clutch & Gearbox replacement

Hi guys
Under the "if it looks to good to be true" heading..... long story short but seems this wee car needs a new (replacement) gearbox (sounds like a tram especially in first and second, and diagnosed by the garage as a fault in the 'box). Oil leak from the bell housing likely to be crankshaft seal, so all in same area. Can get a used box off eBay for £200 (72k and 1 month gtee).....thinking of having a go at this rather than putting her back to the garage. However this would be a step up for me compared to my usual level of DIY on cars, so been looking through threads on the forum/ you tube stuff to supplement my limited knowledge, and got a reasonable idea of what and how, but wondered if there was available somewhere a guide for this (1.4 16v, 6 speed), or would be hugely and eternally grateful for any comment on doing the job (think it's pretty much like doing the clutch with the extra bit of the crank seal?), particularly doing it on my drive....
Cheers.......
 
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re: Valeo clutch & Gearbox replacement

A worn clutch is heavier than a new one.

I've never been able to work out why that is...

I've never understood why that is either. :confused:

Replaced the clutch and DMF in one of my Stilo JTDs a few years ago, and have just finished replacing them in the other one yesterday. On both cars, the pedal became harder to depress as the clutches were nearing end of life. After both replacements, the pedals became much lighter to depress. :confused:

but it could be the angle of the vertical rod inside the bell-housing

The JTD (and 1.8 and 2.4) engines have concentric slave cylinders.... so no vertical rod.

The mystery continues......
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re: Valeo clutch & Gearbox replacement

wondered if there was available somewhere a guide for this (1.4 16v, 6 speed), or would be hugely and eternally grateful for any comment on doing the job (think it's pretty much like doing the clutch with the extra bit of the crank seal?)

I've only worked on the JTD engines, but the procedure for most front wheel drive cars is the same:

1). Disconnect the battery. You may need to remove the battery, fuse box, battery box etc. and disconnect all wiring for access to the gearbox.

2). Support the front of the car on axle stands. Needs to be high enough to remove the gearbox through the left wheel arch.

3). Remove the left front wheel and wheel arch liner.

4). Disconnect the brake pad wear indicator wire and remove the brake caliper. Hang it up in the wheel arch with the hose still connected.

5). Drain the gearbox oil.

5). Disconnect the ABS sensor and track rod end from the hub carrier and remove the front left suspension (strut, hub carrier, wishbone, caliper bracket, disc, one end of the drop link and drive shaft). Lever the inner driveshaft joint out of the gearbox to clear it's retaining circlip. It will be heavy and difficult to manoeuvre, but you could leave all these components connected to each other and remove them all as one assembly.

6). Remove the starter motor. Hang it up behind the engine with the wiring still connected.

7). Unbolt the slave cylinder. Hang it up in the engine compartment with the hose still connected. Don't allow the piston to fall out.

8). Disconnect the battery earth lead from the gearbox.

9). Support the weight of the engine. Don't use a hydraulic jack because they are likely to creep down over time.

10). Support the gearbox on a trolley jack. Position the jack so you can wheel the gearbox out through the wheel arch.

11). Disconnect the gear selector cables and remove the gearbox to engine bolts, and the gearbox mounting.

12). Pull the gearbox away from the engine. I don't know what type of right driveshaft is fitted to the 1.4 engine. If it's a conventional CV or spider joint that goes directly into the gearbox, then you will need to lever it out of the gearbox enough to clear it's retaining circlip. If it's a supported extension shaft, as on my JTDs, then just pulling the gearbox will clear the circlip.


To replace the rear engine oil seal, you'll need to remove the clutch and flywheel. You'll need a tool to lock the flywheel, and a tool to align the clutch when replacing it. If you have assistance, you could probably use a large screwdriver to lock the flywheel. You could probably make a tool to align the clutch with.

1). Remove the clutch cover plate and disc. As you'll be reusing the existing clutch, unscrew the 6 retaining bolts a little at a time each so as not to distort the clutch cover plate.

2). Lock the flywheel and remove the 6 retaining bolts, then remove the flywheel. (See notes below.)

3). Unscrew the bolts holding the rear engine cover complete with oil seal. There may be additional bolts below the cover attaching it to the sump. The oil seal is only supplied complete with the cover.


Notes:

The JTD rear cover/oil seal is supplied with a rubber seal incorporated into it's rear surface where it mates with the engine, but needs additional automotive silicon sealant applied to the bottom where it mates with the sump. I don't know if the 1.4 engine one needs the same.

The JTD flywheel securing bolt holes in the end of the crankshaft are drilled through into the hollow crankshaft, so the bolts have a sealant pre-applied to their threads. I don't know if the 1.4 needs the same. I used new bolts for both of my JTDs.

Flywheel bolts are usually fitted with very high torque, so you'll need to be very careful removing and refitting them if using a screwdriver to lock the flywheel. There's also a danger of the engine moving while removing and refitting them, so be sure it's supported securely.


Was easier doing it than describing it, so I've probably forgotten something above. ;)
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re: Valeo clutch & Gearbox replacement

Wow! That's great Davren, thanks very much for putting all that down in black and white, so to speak. Must admit, didn't quite fully appreciate the extent of what's involved, but this is all good and very much appreciated. Cheers.
 
re: Valeo clutch & Gearbox replacement

Hi again
Anyone able to confirm that a (6 speed) gearbox from a 2003 5dr Stilo 1.2 will fit my 1.4 16v 2005 3dr (also 6 speeder).
Cheers.
 
Hi again
Anyone able to confirm that a (6 speed) gearbox from a 2003 5dr Stilo 1.2 will fit my 1.4 16v 2005 3dr (also 6 speeder).
Cheers.


Hi folks
Finally got on to eLearn which seems to say that the 1.2 and 1.4 use the same gear box (c514.6.13) screen photo attached. Just looking for confirmation that I'm reading eLearn right.....?
Cheers
 

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re: Valeo clutch & Gearbox replacement

Hi folks


Got this on the go now - much of it uncharted territory for me, but going along good (I think), if slow. Thinking ahead, couple of things would be grateful for comment on.


The(new) clutch is slipping due to the oil leak (thought to be from the crankseal, but more of that later) - from what I can make out oil contamination on the clutch usually means it needs to be replaced? - that seem like a logical (but unwanted) conclusion, even for a brand new clutch?


Other thing on the oil leak. Thought this was from the crank seal, since the oil looked black(ish). However, now have had a look up close and personal and oil kind of looks (altho’ not 100% sure….), quite clean (black look maybe because of the black crud around the bottom end…..?). Tie this in with the fact that when I went to drain the gearbox oil – took the drain plug out and nothing came out…… although car is quite severely jacked up at the front, so oil in box moves to the back (away from the drain hole?), still made me wonder whether this is actually oil leaking from the gearbox side, rather than from the crankseal. If so, is this sort of good news (maybe not needing to replace the crankseal after all…..)? On the other hand, I don’t have knowledge of what would be causing a leak from the gearbox – if it’s something internal to the ‘box, think that would be good news since the main purpose of this job is to replace (what has been diagnosed as) a faulty box anyway.


Any and all comments, as usual, hugely appreciated.


Cheers
 
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re: Valeo clutch & Gearbox replacement

Gearbox oil has a very pungent smell, completely different to the smell of engine oil.

If it's gearbox oil leaking from the bell housing, it could be the gearbox input shaft oil seal leaking.

If oil has leaked onto the clutch, it's only the clutch disc that would need replacing, not the clutch cover plate.
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5). Disconnect the ABS sensor and track rod end from the hub carrier and remove the front left suspension (strut, hub carrier, wishbone, caliper bracket, disc, one end of the drop link and drive shaft). Lever the inner driveshaft joint out of the gearbox to clear it's retaining circlip. It will be heavy and difficult to manoeuvre, but you could leave all these components connected to each other and remove them all as one assembly.
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Hi
In the course of doing this lots of stoopid questions come to mind, some of which i can manage to work out (eventually). But one thing i wanted to check (stoopid question No.1) - when i get to the point of removing the driveshaft, i take it that it will not simply pull away from the gearbox, but what I'm not clear on is whether it is a case of levering it out (lever between the gbox and the cup like thing?), so that all that is really required is enough force to lever it clear (of the circlip? and refit is simply the reverse?), or is there something else that needs to be removed or unbolted to allow the shaft to be pulled away, the seal flange thingy on the gbox, for example?
Thanks in advance for any comments.
Cheers
 
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re: Valeo clutch & Gearbox replacement

You don't need to remove the oil seal flange.

As you say, lever between the gearbox and the 'cup like thing'. You only need to lever it out a few millimetres, just enough to compress the circlip. You can pull it out the rest of the way.

Sometimes, you can just give the 'cup like thing' a sharp tug to get it out without levering.
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re: Valeo clutch & Gearbox replacement

Don't forget to clean oil off the flywheel and clutch pressure plate face before fitting new fiction disc. Clearly that's after curing source of the oil leak.
 
re: Valeo clutch & Gearbox replacement

Hi guys
Stoopid questions 2 and 3. Q2 - is this what i should have when the driveshaft is pulled away (pics 1 and 2)? Q3 - any tips on best (easiest?) way to remove this bolt which seems to be stuck in the metal sleeve pic 3 (rubber already trashed loosening nut/bolt off)?
Cheers.
 
.....and the pics......
 

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re: Valeo clutch & Gearbox replacement

Stoopid question number 4 - can i reuse the two heavy bolts when fitting a new wishbone (but need to use a new stretch bolt for the balljoint)?
Tyvm.
 
re: Valeo clutch & Gearbox replacement

Stoopid questions 2 and 3. Q2 - is this what i should have when the driveshaft is pulled away (pics 1 and 2)?

What happened to "lever between the gearbox and the 'cup like thing" :confused:

Q3 - any tips on best (easiest?) way to remove this bolt which seems to be stuck in the metal sleeve pic 3 (rubber already trashed loosening nut/bolt off)?

Can you lever the bolt out from below?
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re: Valeo clutch & Gearbox replacement

"lever between the gearbox and the cup like thing". Ah, well, you see, i removed the strut first and disconnected the ball joint at which point the clip retaining the rubber boot on the side nearest the box popped and the thing literally fell out. Am hoping though that i will be able to lever out the cup thingy, fill the boot up with grease again and refit the clip ready to go back in?

Re the bolt, no hadn't thought of that, but did try to lever it down from the top, alas to no avail. Will give it all another go and try the bottom levering approach as well...... ok to use these bolts again when reassembling?
Cheers.
 
re: Valeo clutch & Gearbox replacement

If there's sufficient space to remove the gearbox, then you could probably leave the cup where it is. Cover it, and the spider joint to prevent dirt ingress though.

If the threads are OK, then yes, you can reuse the same wishbone bolts.
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re: Valeo clutch & Gearbox replacement

You can remove the gearbox with the cups in place.. so you don't *have* to remove them. I used some plastic kitchen film over the end of the cup, held on with an elastic band so that dirt didn't get in. I put a carrier bag over the driveshaft spider and tied a knot on it to keep that clean.

Easiest way to drop the 'box (in the absence of a proper gearbox stand) is to use a trolley jack to support the weight while you remove the last couple of bolts.. then use the jack wheels to pull the 'box away from the engine and then lower it. You need three hands to hold the 'box and manipulate it and pull the jack... but it can be done.

I also placed a folded up cardboard box on the floor under the gearbox, since when it's clear of the engine it will drop off the jack and 32kg you have no chance to completely hold it, although sticking your leg under it (fixed later for free on the NHS) prevents damage to the bell-housing... :D

The bolt... Get an old tyre lever or flat piece of metal and lay one end on the bolt and the other end on your spare wheel tyre, which you'll have to stuff into the arch. Then belt the tyre lever as close as possible to the bolt, with a hammer. Don't try this if you have expensive alloys. It always ends badly.

I'm not a fan of re-using any bolt that has been any way tricky to remove. They're like man-eating tigers that get the taste for human flesh.. You have to shoot them or they'll do it again... :D Your bolt will be more rusty and more mangled next time you want to remove it.. i.e. today it's as easy to remove as it will ever be.

Measure it.. it's something like M10 x 50 (N.B it might be "fine" thread) and buy a new one for £1 off eBay. It'll arrive before you manage to get the gearbox re-fitted for sure.


Ralf S.
 
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re: Valeo clutch & Gearbox replacement

Hi folks

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First off, thanks very much to everybody that’s been responding to this (extended) thread – as I’ve said, I’m pretty much a mechanical novice so comfortable enough with the routine servicing type stuff and simpler repairs, but changing a gearbox is something else altogether and the comments and advice that come back on the forum really are a big help. Getting advice on the subtleties and nuances of how things work (and come apart!) is like gold.* For me, it’s a big job and it’ll take me weeks to get through it all, what with having two or three hours at it when I can find the time (and when it’s not raining or cold or both – it is the West of Scotland and it is only May………), and I do get stuck sometimes with stuff, some of which I can work out eventually and some of which I need to walk away and leave and I will come back on here for advice or will trawl the web. Of course, when things are explained to you and you understand how things work, the answer seems obvious (hence the Stoopid Question series…….)* But, actually, must admit that I’m quite enjoying it all, and I’ve been learning a lot about the car as I’ve gone along, which is good for future reference. If I can get her back on the road and running fine, there’s also the feel good factor of saving money and knowing that this wee car (which is actually a nice runner, apart form the transmission issues) would be in the scrapper otherwise.

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Ralf S – thanks for the “how to do” on pulling the gearbox out, its bits of information like this that I find invaluable – 32kg = 70lbs = 5 stone = heavy! Think I’ll enlist an extra pair of hands to help (so that would give me 4 hands…..) – my fitness fanatic son is a likely candidate (although he doesn’t know it yet……..). Having said that, I’m not that bothered if the bellhousing gets damaged since the gearbox is being replaced anyway…………….? Think also that I will leave the “cups” attached to the gearbox (seem to come away easy enough) and for the driver’s side would be one less thing to co-ordinate when pulling the box out, and then remove them when I have the box on the ground – does that sound a feasible plan? When it comes to refitting later on, any advice/tips on refilling the boots with grease – I’ve got a tub of graphite? grease in the garage which says it’s suitable for CV joints, but looks kind of black/grey in colour while what’s already in looks more yellowy/brownie coloured?

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On the “bolt” issue, I take the point about re-using difficult nuts and bolts, and tbh I did think about just cutting it off with a grinder, and getting a new one and as you say they are probably cheap enough off ebay. Problem is that I’m a bit paranoid about what strength the bolt needs to be and not sure how I would know that what I am buying is the right thing, (unless of course it says in the item listing something like “bolt for wishbone to subframe”……). Alternatively, I could go to Fiat parts counter and get the right thing there, but have a notion that it might be an arm and a leg. So on balance my thinking was that if I can get the bolt out intact, just to reuse it (altho not sure if that will be possible given that it seems to be seized in the metal sleeve?, but will try the techniques mentioned by yourself and Davren and in the meantime maybe the PlusGas will have worked some magic……).

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Anyways, thanks again for all the assistance, and hopefully you guys will be willing to respond to my further cries for help (which there will surely be!) as things progress.

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Cheers

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