Daughters Stilo again.

Daughters car was slow to start yesterday morning. Went out and found a small puddle of diesel on the floor after she drove away. This morning car wont start at all. A few puffs of white smoke out the exhaust and a strong smell of diesel, looked under the car and saw diesel running down the side of the sump on to the floor when she tried to start it..

Think its deffinately the high pressure side as it doesn't happen when the ignition is on(low pressure pump running) but not cranking the engine.

Took the engine cover off, had a quick look but couldn't see any leaks.

So, ideas anyone?

I think the low pressure pump only runs for a few seconds when you first turn the ignition on. If the engine isn't started within a few seconds, it switches off again. So the leak could still be from the low pressure side. Try switching the ignition on for 5 seconds then off again several times. May show where the leak is.

If it's from the high pressure side running at up to 1300 bar with the engine running, I would think any leak would be very obvious. Be very careful when dealing with a high pressure leak. It's more than enough pressure to penetrate human skin.
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Already tried the ignition on for 10 seconds, then off, then on for 10 seconds repeatedly. No sign of fuel leak. But crank the engine and within 3 seconds fuel is p*ssing down the side of the sump onto the floor. Pretty sure its the high pressure side, just not sure where to look, couldn't see anything obvious when I took the engine cover off.

High pressure leak can only be from the outlet of the high pressure pump to the fuel rail, or the injector pipes. I read a post recently where a nut that holds an injector pipe to the injector had cracked causing a leak.

Looks like I'll have to push it onto the ramps and have a look underneath, can't see anything from the top. Maybe it is leaking from the top of the engine somewhere but with 1300 bar its spraying and hitting something lower down making it look like its leaking from lower than it really is..

This car is starting to get on my nerves, problem after problem just lately.

Shadeyman said:

This car is starting to get on my nerves, problem after problem just lately.

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I know what you mean... but try not to make the mistake of selling it the moment that everything's fixed - then the next owner gets all the benefit...

-Alex

Can't think of anything else to suggest. Diagnosing a leak from a distance is always difficult.

i had this.... (well not a puddle more of a stain) it turned out to be a loose diesel filter, somehow it had worked it self loose, tightend it up and all was good again

rat20v said:

i had this.... (well not a puddle more of a stain) it turned out to be a loose diesel filter, somehow it had worked it self loose, tightend it up and all was good again

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Unlikely to "dribble down the side of the sump" if it's from the filter on the bulkhead.
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Davren said:

Can't think of anything else to suggest. Diagnosing a leak from a distance is always difficult.

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Do you think MES would show up a drop in fuel rail pressure if it is the high pressure side? I'm guessing it would because the car wont start.

rat20v said:

i had this.... (well not a puddle more of a stain) it turned out to be a loose diesel filter, somehow it had worked it self loose, tightend it up and all was good again

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Good to know it might be something simple. I'm sorry I'm no help on this - a diesel Stilo was never sold in NZ, so I've never seen one. Would quite like one as an alternative to a 2.4 petrol though!

-Alex

Davren said:

Unlikely to "dribble down the side of the sump" if it's from the filter on the bulkhead.
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Oh.
So, meanwhile, is the high-pressure pump engine-driven? Is it likely that's sprung a leak? I've seen them changed on Citroens of the same age.

-Alex

Shadeyman said:

Do you think MES would show up a drop in fuel rail pressure if it is the high pressure side? I'm guessing it would because the car wont start.

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Possibly, but would you know what the pressure should be at certain engine speeds, loads etc. to compare the MES reading with?

I think with any leak of anything, you've just got to get your hands dirty.
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Davren said:

I think with any leak of anything, you've just got to get your hands dirty.
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Was doing my best to avoid doing that again, bl**dy car ...

alexGS said:

Oh.
So, meanwhile, is the high-pressure pump engine-driven? Is it likely that's sprung a leak? I've seen them changed on Citroens of the same age.

-Alex

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Yes... it's driven by the timing belt, but as it's purely a high pressure pump, it doesn't need to be timed.

Don't know why I didn't think of the pump leaking earlier, especially as only a month ago I helped a friend repair one on a BMW engined Rover 75. The pump looked very similar if not the same as the JTD one. There are several rubber seals and washers in each of the 3 chambers of the pump. It's a known problem on the 75 and well documented on the Rover forums. They only leak when the ambient temperature is low, and stop leaking as it gets warmer. My friend bought a kit of seals for it and we replaced them. Needed a special tool to hold the timing chain in place while the pump was removed on the BMW engine, but it would only need the belt removing on the JTD.
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Just been out to it again.

I'm 99% sure the fuel is leaking from the high pressure fuel pump, running down the block, onto the sump and onto the floor. Its not a slow leak, its almost pours onto the floor. Put my hand around the back of the engine and under the pump to wipe it dry. Cranked the car for 3 or 4 seconds and the bottom of the pump was soaking with fuel.

Don't really want to strip it all off until I have a rough idea of what I need to do to fix it.

So, ideas anyone?

If I knew that pump fitted to the BMW engine was the the same as the JTD, a kit of new seals is available. Very fiddley job fitting them though. That's why my friend asked me to help him. He's got chubby fingers.

Second hand JTD fuel pumps seem to be "2 a penny" on eBay.

EDIT: Not sure if you can get the pump off without taking it's pulley off first. You may need to make a puller to get the pulley off, It's probably a taper fit onto the pump spindle..
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Davren said:

If I knew that pump fitted to the BMW engine was the the same as the JTD, a kit of new seals is available. Very fiddley job fitting them though. That's why my friend asked me to help him. He's got chubby fingers.

Second hand JTD fuel pumps seem to be "2 a penny" on eBay.

EDIT: Not sure if you can get the pump off without taking it's pulley off first. You may need to make a puller to get the pulley off, It's probably a taper fit onto the pump spindle..
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Would the bearing pullers I use for the rear bushes do the job?

I'm hoping its just a loose pipe or nut ..

Shadeyman said:

Would the bearing pullers I use for the rear bushes do the job?

I'm hoping its just a loose pipe or nut ..

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If the pulley has to come off before removing the pump from the car, your rear bush puller will probably be too big to fit in the available space. If the pump comes off with the pulley, I'm sure you could adapt it to do the job.

When we did the BMW/Rover pump, we had a special tool that held the timing chain in place while the pump was removed and it also acted as a puller (pusher actually) to push the pump spindle out of the pulley. It didn't require much pressure to push it out, so I don't think it would be too difficult to make something for a puller.

EDIT: I think the pulley has 2 threaded holes in it to accomodate the Fiat puller. There was one on eBay cheap a few months ago, I thought no.... I'm never going to need that.
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Time to get my hands dirty I guess.

Thanks for the advice guys.