Hi all
I have a Sedici 1.9 multijet which when running is great but if stood for 10 hours or more does not start as it should. It turns over and over and over perhaps for 20 to 30 seconds before starting. To me it seems to turn over very slow but it does try a few times in the 20 to 30 seconds before it springs to life. Anyway some history its had new Bosch glow plugs, Battery reads 12.7 volts before starting and 14.1 volts when started even when loaded with all electricals on tick over, I think the starter might be dying but would like all your thoughts on it before I spend around a £100 on one only to find no improvement at all. Is there something else it could be? Thanks Stephen.

Hi Stephenbebop,

Still having trouble with ours on cold starts now the colder weather is here. Think we have narrowed it down to VALVE CLEARANCES. (Needs shims)

Gonna get it priced up at a reliable garage. (Alfatech Ledbury)

Think the service schedule says should be inspected every 36,000 miles. (Ours is at just under 80,000 and never been checked as far as we know)

Maybe try 'honest john ' at the Telegraph?
He gives good, quick, succinct advice...

Hopefully to help other members/owners....

The valve faces can wear over time and mileage but not the valve tips (the end that is pushed down by the cam lobe) thus opening the valves for longer/further... This can create a loss of compression on the firing cycle. The compression is needed especially for cold starts.

The 8v multijet 1.9 diesel uses shims (spacers) to adjust and must be done manually.
It is a relatively straight forward job to do but needs special tools, shims and a new gasket for the rocker cover. (Shouldn't cost a fortune for a good garage to do the job properly)

Hi Chumbamoo

Don't think mine is valve problem as when I did the timing belt last year and had to turn the engine by hand before and after fitting belt , tensioners, and water pump it was very very hard to turn due to compression. Guide said to turn though 2 full revolutions to line the belt up. I was sweating after that lol. But thanks for your reply. I still feel that the starter is the problem when its stud a long time due to thicker oil etc. Think my only option is to spend the £100 on a new starter and hope it cures to problem. Hope to leave until warmer weather as its down the back of the engine and looks a bugger to get at :bang:
Regards Stephen.

The valves will still close fully giving full compression.

To explain...
On rotation the cam lobe releases the valve tip and allows the valve to close the chamber. THERE IS A GAP between the two. This gap controls how long/far the valve will open (Valve clearance).
If the gap is wrong (caused by the valve wearing into its seat) the inlet and outlet timings are wrong for the cylinder.

chumbamoo said:

The valves will still close fully giving full compression.

Click to expand...

Oops!!! Meant "good compression"

Hope the starter does the job Stephen.

I do not think you have eliminated the battery or earths and wiring generally as being the problem. A very small new battery or old large battery could give those voltages but be unable to turn the engine over very well.

The fact your battery voltage is 14.1V after a difficult starting on tick over might suggest that the battery has a poor ability to be discharged or hold a charge and therefore is easily brought to an apparently fully charged good condition very quickly. If you had bad connections something similar would be experienced because little current would come from the battery under what should have been very heavy starting currents but sufficient current would come thru the poor connection to show a good charging voltage on a battery that was not being heavily drained of power during starting.

Once winter comes a cold old battery cannot deliver the same current as when it was warmer. Additionally the colder oil means more current is needed to start.

I think you need to troubleshoot a bit more before going to the hassle of trying out a new starter!

stephenbebop said:

Hi all
I have a Sedici 1.9 multijet which when running is great but if stood for 10 hours or more does not start as it should. It turns over and over and over perhaps for 20 to 30 seconds before starting. To me it seems to turn over very slow but it does try a few times in the 20 to 30 seconds before it springs to life. Anyway some history its had new Bosch glow plugs, Battery reads 12.7 volts before starting and 14.1 volts when started even when loaded with all electricals on tick over, I think the starter might be dying but would like all your thoughts on it before I spend around a £100 on one only to find no improvement at all. Is there something else it could be? Thanks Stephen.

Click to expand...

I would "borrow" a good battery for an overnight .. just to see how much better ( if any) things are,

I take it you've already cleaned all electrical points, between alternator, battery,and earths ( starter),
as Volts is fine ,
it's Amps ( current) you need to crank effectively

Charlie

Hi Thanks for all your reply's. Varesecrazy you said its Amps not Voltage that I need so I did a little research and my manual says 12 Volt 70Ah/20HR CCA 450A and my battery is 12volt 60Ah EN 480 CCA so do you think that my battery is under powered and now the cold weather is here and my battery is older that that is why I have slow turning over ? https://www.fiatforum.com/members/varesecrazy/
Thing is Ive had the car coming up to two years now and the battery was on it when I bought it and there is no date on it to tell how old it is so now I am thinking Battery not Starter. As for borrowing one over night no one I know has one big enough so that's not an option. The battery was tested just before xmas and I was told that its 100% but if its the wrong battery then will it drain down faster when starting? Please let me know your thoughts on this.
Regards Stephen.:bang:
https://www.fiatforum.com/members/varesecrazy/

stephenbebop said:

Hi Thanks for all your reply's. Varesecrazy you said its Amps not Voltage that I need so I did a little research and my manual says 12 Volt 70Ah/20HR CCA 450A and my battery is 12volt 60Ah EN 480 CCA so do you think that my battery is under powered and now the cold weather is here and my battery is older that that is why I have slow turning over ? https://www.fiatforum.com/members/varesecrazy/
Thing is Ive had the car coming up to two years now and the battery was on it when I bought it and there is no date on it to tell how old it is so now I am thinking Battery not Starter. As for borrowing one over night no one I know has one big enough so that's not an option. The battery was tested just before xmas and I was told that its 100% but if its the wrong battery then will it drain down faster when starting? Please let me know your thoughts on this.
Regards Stephen.:bang:
https://www.fiatforum.com/members/varesecrazy/

Click to expand...

If you can't borrow a bigger battery how about sticking jump leads on it - just borrow a neighbour's car if you don't have a second. If it starts easily with the extra charge, then it sounds like the battery rather than the starter. I think we forget just what a lump of current a modern car takes to fire up, particularly when it's cold & when other components are getting older. :idea:

(Not having a pop, honest!) but the more of this type of thread I read the more it convinces me that I was right to buy the petrol version - having said that I'm sub 30mpg on my (3.5 miles each way) train station runs at the moment

Your mpg is only cause it's on choke all the time bonefish.

Think this is an ongoing fault... see previous post.

https://www.fiatforum.com/sedici/344681-slow-starting-lumpy-tickover-sometimes.html

"Slow starting lumpy tick over sometimes"

stephenbebop said:

Hi Thanks for all your reply's. The battery was tested just before xmas and I was told that its 100%.:bang:

Click to expand...

You were focusing on the starter now you are focusing on the battery.

You need to eliminate poor connections between the battery and the starter before you begin throwing money at solutions.

All it takes is a loose or corroded wire and your 100% battery will be next to useless. If the battery is good then the voltage at the battery will drop to perhaps 9-10 volts or less while the engine cranks slowly on a cold day. You should compare starting voltages at the battery on a similar car so you can diagnose what the problem is on your own car. (Normally ordinary starting is a massive strain on a battery if it turns over for many seconds without starting. So you need to wait for the battery to recover before you give it another try - the battery voltage will rise while you wait. )

If you have poor connections when you turn over the engine then the battery voltage on your car will not drop like it will on the better starting car.

Get some jump leads and work out what is going on in stages, step by step.

You should also put the voltmeter between good clean engine metal and the earth of the battery. With the ignition off it will read zero or very near to it, with the ignition on you are going to get a small voltage reading - this is the voltage drop across the wiring and is normal. Then measure the voltage drop across the wiring when you start the car. If you can arrange or enhance the wiring so the voltage drop is as low as you can reasonable manage to get it, you get the best starting opportunity. You should also do the same thing between the starter and the battery on the earth side and the non-earth side.

Thanks again for your reply's
I have a battery off my son's girlfriends Nissan Micra which seems to hold charge for 3 to 4 days so I will make sure its fully charged and try the jump lead thing next when I can find my jump leads.
It was -3 this morning when I went to start the car to take the wife to Asda it started after 25 seconds and run normally with no lumpiness once started.
It does amaze me on how slow it turns over but still kicks into life.
Only hope it continues to keep starting while I try to sort it out.:bang:
I start back to work tomorrow and need it to get there as I now do 75 miles there and back and leave at 6.45am and don't get back until 7.15pm so I really don't wont to be buggering about in the mornings or at night for that matter so will try till leave it till next weekend unless it gets warmer.
Regards Stephen.

I'd suggest fitting the jump leads to another car as you would normally - then have the other car running before you try to start yours. You are then absolutely sure your car has a proper thump of power going to it. I'd expect you to notice immediately if it's spinning faster - I run several older cars & it's amazing how much quicker it turns with jumpers on if you've got a dying battery - and they can be batteries which hold full charge apparently, so don't rely on that.

It's a 5 minute test once you've got another car next to you, so I'd do it straight away .

stephenbebop said:

Hi Thanks for all your reply's. Varesecrazy you said its Amps not Voltage that I need so I did a little research and my manual says 12 Volt 70Ah/20HR CCA 450A and my battery is 12volt 60Ah EN 480 CCA so do you think that my battery is under powered and now the cold weather is here and my battery is older that that is why I have slow turning over ? https://www.fiatforum.com/members/varesecrazy/
Thing is Ive had the car coming up to two years now and the battery was on it when I bought it and there is no date on it to tell how old it is so now I am thinking Battery not Starter. As for borrowing one over night no one I know has one big enough so that's not an option. The battery was tested just before xmas and I was told that its 100% but if its the wrong battery then will it drain down faster when starting? Please let me know your thoughts on this.
Regards Stephen.:bang:

@stephenbebop

an underpowered battery won't crank for as long ( amphours)

BUT should still spin quickly enough to reliably start an otherwise sound engine,
did this on my Ducato.. recommended battery was £120 , but the £80 smaller version worked fine
https://www.fiatforum.com/members/varesecrazy/

Click to expand...

Charlie

To keep it simple....

CCA= cold cranking amps.

Your battery is rated higher than the necessary battery for cold start.

chumbamoo said:

Hopefully to help other members/owners....

The valve faces can wear over time and mileage but not the valve tips (the end that is pushed down by the cam lobe) thus opening the valves for longer/further... This can create a loss of compression on the firing cycle. The compression is needed especially for cold starts.

The 8v multijet 1.9 diesel uses shims (spacers) to adjust and must be done manually.
It is a relatively straight forward job to do but needs special tools, shims and a new gasket for the rocker cover. (Shouldn't cost a fortune for a good garage to do the job properly)

Click to expand...

My car has also started to take longer to start from cold now. It's had the glow plugs and starer motor replaced since Christmas, and the alternator was replaced 3 or 4 months back when it failed. My local garage says the battery is fine, and also had the diesel injectors tested and replaced. For me it takes about 5 or 6 seconds for the engine to rev into life, sometimes quicker if I pump the fuel peddle a bit. I might mention this to my local garage if it's not likely to be something they would think to check?

Hello All

Here's a update.

After having starting issues for some time I leant to live with it as it always started in the end without the battery going flat.

Anyway around 4 weeks ago I drew the short straw and had to do the chippy run for the lads at work at dinner.

So went out started the car went to chippy got chips etc went to start car and NOTHING not even a click. Dash light didn't dim, starter didn't engage, So check fuse's, Give the starter a tap with the hammer still no start.

Luckily I was on a hill so bump started it.

Bought and fitted a brand new starter from Euro Car Parts (£103)

And since then the engine has started first turn of the key every time no matter how long the car has stud.

So happy days and thanks for all your reply's

Kind Regard Stephen