Hello people,

I'm on a information gathering hunt on the 1.2 16VPunto engines so I can get lots of details for a potential engine swap in the summer, if my cash savings are big enough.

I'm after a 16V 1.2L to "drop" into the Sei, and am looking for any manuals that will be of help.

I see eBay has the FIAT manuals for mk1/mk2 and mk3, so they will be of use, and will probably just buy all three

Are there any other manuals such as haynes or porters that cover this model engine?


Also, is there a thread with the design and technical differences between the mk1/mk2/mk3 engines around here (seen the general sticky), covering engine mounts, ECU, Ignition systems etc. I did do a search but came up without much useful info.

I'd be particularly interested if anyone has a mk3 engine in mk2, or mk2 in mk1, etc, and if they had any problems doing the swap.



Any help would be great or input would be great



Cheers peeps


Kristian

you'll need to drop th engine and gearbox down quite a bit in a sei to allow the head and inlet manifold to fit under the bonnet. so custom mounts or a set of old mounts with a 2-3" drop welded in some how (although I think mounts are aluminium?).


either way you've got your work cut out for you.


also the mk1 1.2 16v (found in sportings and '85sx' 85elx) is the most powerful (?) in the mk1, 86bhp. in the mk2 they are only 80, and the mk3 grande I have no idea. its down to emmisions and the quest to get more mpg's.

also from what I've heard on here mk1's are the least prone to throttle position sensor syndrome. and the wiring loom is the simplest and will mate up with a cinq's/sei's instruments withou much modification.

the mk2 had an extra mount at the top of the engine so i doubt it will fit into a sei.

The mk3 (grande) did not feature the 1.2 16v, it was dropped for some unknown reason.

The mk1 will be your best bet, it has more power (86bhp) but much worse mpg (about 6mpg on average).

Best combo would be a mk1 engine with the mk2 6speed gearbox!

maybe not enough width in a sei for a mk2 6speeder. I know they can rub with std wheels and tyres (sporting) on the mk1 6speeder (avoid unless you like 3600rpm at 60 in 6th).


didn't know about the 3rd engine mount (maybe be worth incorporating one to keep the engine and box in the right place, since space will be at such a premium you don't have space for te engine to move around atall).


6mpg!!!! is that with 4 1100cc bike throttle bodies attached.

Mk2 does have slightly more torque though, but yer mk1 lump will be cheaper to source.

Cheers for the information guys

Oldschool said he did a 16V and it just dropped in no problems with regards to height etc. Perhaps I should ask him which he used.

If the mk2 has an extra engine mount, its out of the picture, as i don't really want to start fabricating a new mounting position on the chasis if I can avoid it The fact that there was never a mark 3 is a great help, it leaves me with just the one option, the mk1

I'll grab the mk1 manual of eBay right now

I'm going to stick with the current gearbox, as I know its in good condition, and I have heard issues with wheel rubbing, and it is designed for 14" wheels as well I believe, with my 13", the ratio of the box doesn't really suit, or so I've heard. There is the cool factor of having 6 speed, but i don't think its warranted with regards to the extra effort.

I presume the gear boxes are all interchangeable?


The 16V ECU, is it the same as the 8V? as the valves are not ECU controlled, I'm hoping they are interchangeable (to a certain extent, remapping for the massively different torque and power outputs. If that is the case, I can merge my 8V mpi ecu, with the 16V wiring loom and not have to worry about imobillisers, codes, etc. Or will I have to source a 16V ECU, code box etc? If so, thats gonna be a major PITA!


Thanks again guys, you've all been a great help, and now I know I need the mk1 sporting/85 engine, I can start to traul this forum for more usefull information

Kristian

faster4_tec said:

6mpg!!!! is that with 4 1100cc bike throttle bodies attached.

Click to expand...

??

I am not sure what you mean, but the mk2 1.2 16v is 6mpg BETTER than the mk1. I can vouch that the mk2 engine is very economical.

I presume the gear boxes are all interchangeable?

Click to expand...

Yes, all FIRE gearbox's are interchangable. If it came from a FIRE engine (16v included), it will fit.

Cheers Ransoman, you have been a great help

I have a mk1 manual on order, but am still curious about a mk2 due to the better mpg, and the chance of them being in better shape generally (age/mileage). I don't want to buy the mk2 manual just to see where the additional mount is, but can't find a decent pic in the forum. Anyone have an ePer or workshop screen shot of the mk2 mounts, or a good photo?

If the other mounts are in the same position, it may be worth looking into.

I will be using my 8V mpi ECU, remapped, that features the knock and cam sensors on it, so a mk2 would be easier in this respect, I won't need to have a mk2 cam cover on a mk1 engine, and the mk2 has an official knock sensor mount The only other downside of the mk2 is the electronic throttle module, but I can probably swap that over easy enough

Its just a case of weighing up the pros and cons really If the engine is the same size and the other mounts are in the normal positions, then i see no reason why i would have to use the additional mount.

Cheers,

Kristian

Is this what your looking for?:

Cheers ChrisUK,

That looks like 6 components, but 3 mounts.

Compared to this (which i think is the other side view of my pic)...:




....there will obviously be some adapters needed, but they are roughly the same area, so it may all be OK

What software is that you have, and that's defiantly the MK2?

Cheers,

Kristisan

Yep its definatly the mk2 it covers the 1.2 8v, 1.2 8v BIPOWER, 1.2 16v, 1.8 16v, 1.9 JTD, 1.9 MD. The software is called DTE from what I understand the software is standard it just depends what data is loaded with it, it looks exactly the same on the Alfa's just different data.

you NEED the 16v ecu AFAIK.

as the mk1 8v's are spi mainly, with the exception of the 75, which is tempremental (tell me abou it).


also the fueling is different I would imagine.


and regarding fuel economy I knew the mk2's were generally more frugal, but didn't know it was quite as good as that!!

Looking here it has been done before with an 8V ECU, so I should be fine.

My 1.1 is MPI, its not the exact same ECU as the 75 as it has the extras the 1.2 16V has, cam sensor and knock sensor, both of which the 75 didn't have, hence baring throttle and possibly mounts, it will be an easier job.

The fuel economy is a big plus, probably at least partially down too having the knock sensor.

The mk2 engines are more money, but i think my mind is set now. MK2 here I come. Time for another ebay manual and a fair bit more saving


I'll update how it goes and undoubtedly ask you guys for more help

Cheers everyone,

Kristian

kritip said:

Looking here it has been done before with an 8V ECU, so I should be fine.

My 1.1 is MPI, its not the exact same ECU as the 75 as it has the extras the 1.2 16V has, cam sensor and knock sensor, both of which the 75 didn't have, hence baring throttle and possibly mounts, it will be an easier job.

The fuel economy is a big plus, probably at least partially down too having the knock sensor.

The mk2 engines are more money, but i think my mind is set now. MK2 here I come. Time for another ebay manual and a fair bit more saving


I'll update how it goes and undoubtedly ask you guys for more help

Cheers everyone,

Kristian

Click to expand...

I can send you a copy of the manual PM! .

kritip said:

Cheers Ransoman, you have been a great help

I have a mk1 manual on order, but am still curious about a mk2 due to the better mpg, and the chance of them being in better shape generally (age/mileage). I don't want to buy the mk2 manual just to see where the additional mount is, but can't find a decent pic in the forum. Anyone have an ePer or workshop screen shot of the mk2 mounts, or a good photo?

If the other mounts are in the same position, it may be worth looking into.

I will be using my 8V mpi ECU, remapped, that features the knock and cam sensors on it, so a mk2 would be easier in this respect, I won't need to have a mk2 cam cover on a mk1 engine, and the mk2 has an official knock sensor mount The only other downside of the mk2 is the electronic throttle module, but I can probably swap that over easy enough

Its just a case of weighing up the pros and cons really If the engine is the same size and the other mounts are in the normal positions, then i see no reason why i would have to use the additional mount.

Cheers,

Kristian

Click to expand...

is this any help?:

This a mk2 engine bay:


This is a mk1 engine bay:



You can see the extra top mount on the mk2.

From a conversion point of view the mk1 would be the easiest because it has a cable throttle. The mk2 is fly by wire so you would need to upgrade the pedal too.

faster4_tec said:

and regarding fuel economy I knew the mk2's were generally more frugal, but didn't know it was quite as good as that!!

Click to expand...

The official figure from parkers:

mk1:

bhp: 86
0-60: 10.2
top speed: 110
MPG combined: 40

mk2:

bhp: 80
0-60: 10.6
top speed:107
mpg combined: 44

Fiat claim the mk1 is only 39mpg combined (iirc)?

The Mk2 1.2 16v SuperFIRE was replaced by the 1.4 16v in the Mk2b, which was then replaced by the 1.4 16v Starjet in the Grande for emissions reasons. Also the Starjet is apparently a similar weight to the 1.2 16v and super-reliable

I've watched you guys faff about with this so lets get some real details.

The Mk1 or 176 has a totally different inlet manifold(50% Plastic) , larger throttle body, cable operated, different cam carrier, double valve springs, and a totally different header system.

The MK2 or 188 runs, a smaller throttle body, fly by wire, 100% plastic one piece inlet, cam sensor in the cam carrier, single valve springs, single and twin lambdas (later models have twins), a nasty manifold.

From whaat I have seen you need a mk1 engine with a MK2 carrier to run the 16v in a MPi Sei. It can also run the MPi ECU with mapping, but this can be confirmed shortly.

Personal opinion is the 176 had more money spent on it, but not much. The 188 has more torque. I prefer the 176 cable throttle, as the wire unit is unresponsive and when you are feathering the engine with high life cams it makes live very uncomfortable.

I hope this helps.

Ransoman said:

is this any help?:

You can see the extra top mount on the mk2.

From a conversion point of view the mk1 would be the easiest because it has a cable throttle. The mk2 is fly by wire so you would need to upgrade the pedal too.

Click to expand...

Being a dumbass, I can see the mount on the left, but i can't clearly see the others

I know it has fly-by-wire but I don't understand what this is I iwas hoping i could use the parts from the SEi, or a mk1, to convert the mk2 to cable.

H2DaE said:

The Mk2 1.2 16v SuperFIRE was replaced by the 1.4 16v in the Mk2b, which was then replaced by the 1.4 16v Starjet in the Grande for emissions reasons. Also the Starjet is apparently a similar weight to the 1.2 16v and super-reliable

Click to expand...

I'd love to try a 1.4, but i think the comlications will be greater again, plus they are hard to find and very expensive!

JamesMK2 said:

I've watched you guys faff about with this so lets get some real details.

The Mk1 or 176 has a totally different inlet manifold(50% Plastic) , larger throttle body, cable operated, different cam carrier, double valve springs, and a totally different header system.

Click to expand...

OK

JamesMK2 said:

The MK2 or 188 runs, a smaller throttle body, fly by wire, 100% plastic one piece inlet, cam sensor in the cam carrier, single valve springs, single and twin lambdas (later models have twins), a nasty manifold.

Click to expand...

My 8v engine/ECU has cam sensor and also has 2 lambda sensors, which i would have to retain to keep the ECU happy.

JamesMK2 said:

From whaat I have seen you need a mk1 engine with a MK2 carrier to run the 16v in a MPi Sei. It can also run the MPi ECU with mapping, but this can be confirmed shortly.

Click to expand...

carrier meaning?

JamesMK2 said:

Personal opinion is the 176 had more money spent on it, but not much. The 188 has more torque. I prefer the 176 cable throttle, as the wire unit is unresponsive and when you are feathering the engine with high life cams it makes live very uncomfortable.

I hope this helps.

Click to expand...

If i can convert the mk2 to cable throttle, and fit/ignore the additional mount, it may be the better option.

However, If i can easily fit the cam sensor to the mk1, it should be easier/cheaper.

The two lamda on my car don't matter either way, as i may need custom and can just have a boss put in the new one after the CAT.


The lower power of the mk2 is fine, it's MUCH more than the 54bhp of the 1.1 8v and the economy will be nice.



Cheers guys, your all being a great help but you are making my choices harder

you won't notice a power difference between the two, so forget anyone ever told you that.

The engine is made of 3 sections, Block, head & cam carrier. You want a mk1 engine but you need a MK2 cam carrier for the cam sensor. You need the MK1 for the inlet and cable throttle. Otherwise you will spend a fortune in buying odd parts.

The MK2 probably could be converted but you would need a mk1 inlet manifold, and throttle body etc.