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Old 2 Weeks Ago   #31
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Re: MK1 Punto Idle Revving / High Idle

Let me add that tonight I've driven the car and couldn't repeat the revs hanging on at 2000 rpm. This afternoon it was so hot where I live (Spain, small town close to Madrid) around 40 degrees. Tonight it's still hot, 27, to be at night but not that much compared to this afternoon. Can it be related? Just trying to give you as much info as possible
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Old 2 Weeks Ago   #32
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Today I have checked all again. Baterry is charging with an external charger, maybe not related but I cannot lose anything. I've noticed that air filter box was not adjusting completely, so I've applied some Teflon (picture attached, not my car) to the seal in the throttle body. I've tightened the lambda sensor just it case, it has moved no more than 10 (visual measure). Tomorrow I'll test it, battery is still charging. Let's see if there is any improvement. If not, this is my plan b https://products.liqui-moly.com/addi...n-cleaner.html
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Old 2 Weeks Ago   #33
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Re: MK1 Punto Idle Revving / High Idle

How many total kms
Has car driven?
You may need a new catalytic converter to get through mot.
New lambda sensor first maybe cheaper.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #34
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Re: MK1 Punto Idle Revving / High Idle

355376 so far. Lambda is brand new, changed on february. I'm in doubt if a new catalytic converter will solve the issue, because CO at idle looks fine. If broken or in bad condition CO should be high in both CO idle and CO rev, shouldn't be?

I'm open to buy a new one, I found it for 95 (86). But what worries me is if I change it but problem is still there.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #35
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Re: MK1 Punto Idle Revving / High Idle

Quote Originally Posted by jackwhoo View Post
How many total kms
Has car driven?
You may need a new catalytic converter to get through mot.
New lambda sensor first maybe cheaper.
You made me think twice about the catalytic converter. because there are some symptoms that may indicates it is not in best condition

- acceleration not fluent at 2000 rpm. Maybe not enough pressure in exhaust fumes and cat is blocking them
- the temperature is exceeding the half so often, although just a bit above the half. Maybe because of previous point, fumes blocked are provoking it. On the other hand, maybe it is just normal behavior.
- very few times I've heard a metallic noise from exhaust under driver seat.

I'll check it today hitting it a bit to check if there is anything broken in the interior
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Last edited by majobusa; 1 Week Ago at 10:25.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #36
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Re: MK1 Punto Idle Revving / High Idle

Quote Originally Posted by majobusa View Post
355376 so far. Lambda is brand new, changed on february. I'm in doubt if a new catalytic converter will solve the issue, because CO at idle looks fine. If broken or in bad condition CO should be high in both CO idle and CO rev, shouldn't be?

I'm open to buy a new one, I found it for 95 (86). But what worries me is if I change it but problem is still there.
What brand lambda ntk/ngk Or Bosch?
Or Chinese no name sensor?
Yes I know what you mean about hesitating to try a new catalytic converter, I hesitated to suggest it. Don't be so sure that a cat works at idle must be fine remember a lot more exhaust gasses go through cat at fast idle so the cat has to work a lot harder. a failing cat is likely to be ok at idle but not ok with more exhaust flowing through it.

How many total kilometres has your car travelled? Is cat original Part?


The revs hanging will not be catalytic converter, but a different issue. Did you check the throttle cable has some slack when no pressure on throttle pedal?
No mat or carpet pressing on throttle pedal. Throttle pedal pivot point not stiff?

The video you posted was helpful.
The iaw interpretation of the o2 sensor uses a value (lambda correction) that I'm not familiar with , if it had shown the voltage output of the o2 sensor I would be able to say more.

Throttle position sensor reading correctly using iaw?

Can you down load the free multiecuscan software? That is very good and may help.

The iaw showed the o2 correction going up and down which looks to be a good sign.

Do you know anyone with a similar age punto that you could look at the panda correction graph and see if it is the same?

Something else check the back of the exhaust manifold for cracks a mirror may help.

Don't give up

Jack
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Old 1 Week Ago   #37
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Re: MK1 Punto Idle Revving / High Idle

Lambda is Maxgear, https://www.autodoc.es/maxgear/9963487 , the replaced one was Bosch and last 4 years only. Because of the lockdown I have it at home as well, yesterday I cleaned it so I can double check if it still works or if Maxgear is working fine


I have the Multiecuscan installed but getting some Runtime errors when connected to the car in my Windows 10 pc that I couldn't solve yet either. Anyway, checking the options in MES simulation mode IAW can do almost the same

Cat is from stock, so it has 355376 km and 25 years :0

Makes sense what you state about idle gases and cat.

Throttle cable revised several times. Also tensioned, checked as well that rubber is not blocking the cable. Carpet in its place.

Throttle position sensor is new and seems to be reading properly. Not reset when installed as workshop manual indicates, but in limits, between 0 and 14, and it is 4 im IAW. However I though to review it again.

How can be measured the voltage of the o2 sensor out of IAW? Any manual way?

Unfortunatelly I don't know anyone with same car. We had a very good group long time ago, but old cars like mine have been replaced by new ones. That's life

By the way, thanks for the encouragement and help, really appreciated
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Last edited by majobusa; 1 Week Ago at 11:18.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #38
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Re: MK1 Punto Idle Revving / High Idle

It's great you are keeping such a car running.

Try the Bosch sensor and see if the graph of lambda correction exactly the same as new sensor.

I think it is worth trying a replacement cat at that number of kms.

No problem supporting , you are doing a good job

Start a new thread about trying to run multi ecu scan with Windows 10 it may help others as well as you
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Old 1 Week Ago   #39
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Re: MK1 Punto Idle Revving / High Idle

it was my brother's first car, my first car as well. it has been from new at home and always working, while newer cars at home got broken. I've restored and improved the car with higher trims equipment. There is still work to do, painting and shocks mainly, but only if passes MOT of course. I'm very fond of it, that's the reason I keep pushing to get it solved. Actually it is still running, maybe to perfect, but running. The problem is just with MOT

I'll try today first mounting battery and checking if all I did yesterday make any difference, if not I'll try by setting throttle position sensor as workshop indicates and as well the cleaned Bosch lambda. Keep you posted.

I'll start the thread about MES, thanks for the suggestion
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Last edited by majobusa; 1 Week Ago at 13:12.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #40
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Re: MK1 Punto Idle Revving / High Idle

Love that you have had the car from new , amazing
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Old 1 Week Ago   #41
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Re: MK1 Punto Idle Revving / High Idle

Back again. Good and bad news.

Good news first

I could run MES and check more parameters

Battery now at rest is at 13v, a bit higher after charging it, and same value with engine running and warm, 13,96v.

Throttle position reset as per Workshop instruction and it works perfectly. Being at 4,2 at rest, flowing in paralel as the pedal, and always go back to rest position

Bad news. Lambda values are quite low, close to 0,90%, so poor mix what causes high CO levels. It should closer to 1, being 1 the perfect value and between 0,995 and 1,005 the optimal. I've checked it as well without air filter, just to try provide more aire to the engine. It has improved, increased to 0,93%, but still far from 1. At least I know that lambda is not correcting as expecting. Now I have to determine if it is because of the sensor itself or because of any other reason.

I couldn't drive it, so all tests have been done warm but stopped.

Next, test the old lambda sensor and see if there is any change in the values. I couldn't today either


Two videos. Sorry for the Spanish, I realized late it wasn't in English:

Lambda correction with air filter
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IINxTBdY4Y

Lambda correction without airfilter, but full box installed
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCZXlNmSQMk
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Last edited by majobusa; 1 Week Ago at 21:38.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #42
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Re: MK1 Punto Idle Revving / High Idle

More tests done.

Old lambda installed after cleaning. Se the comparison, old cleaned is Bosch, new dirty is Maxgear

Now Lambda correction value reaches 1% when revving with air filter installed, which is good and much better than before, in theory. At least we know that lambda sensor is making a difference. However, gases from exhaust smell much more like petrol, this worries me a bit

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahLGAJQ6Skw


Idle is fine, same as before. No noise of anything broken inside the cat. But discovered hte reason for the metallic noise I hear from time to time, an engine mount broken. I've found as well a leak of coolant in one of the coolant caps in the block

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CggnH405UeM


I'm thinking to apply the inyector cleaner and go to MOT now that Lambda is better, what do you think?
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Last edited by majobusa; 1 Week Ago at 17:09.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #43
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Re: MK1 Punto Idle Revving / High Idle

Quote Originally Posted by majobusa View Post
More tests done.

Old lambda installed after cleaning. Se the comparison, old cleaned is Bosch, new dirty is Maxgear

Now Lambda correction value reaches 1% when revving with air filter installed, which is good and much better than before, in theory. At least we know that lambda sensor is making a difference. However, gases from exhaust smell much more like petrol, this worries me a bit

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahLGAJQ6Skw


Idle is fine, same as before. No noise of anything broken inside the cat. But discovered hte reason for the metallic noise I hear from time to time, an engine mount broken. I've found as well a leak of coolant in one of the coolant caps in the block

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CggnH405UeM


I'm thinking to apply the inyector cleaner and go to MOT now that Lambda is better, what do you think?
Yes do that but if still doesn't pass I really think time for new catalytic converter given age and mileage of you current cat.

The coolant leaking core plug will need replacing repair when mot passed.
Good luck
Jack

The lambda correction needs to be graphed really to see the switching of the o2 sensor, I'm not 100% sure but it looks like the lambda correction looks like the o2 sensor voltage on a different scale.

If that is the case at least you can see if o2 sensor signal switching.

Don't get rid of new sensor , are there any numbers on the new sensor?
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Last edited by jackwhoo; 1 Week Ago at 18:00.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #44
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Re: MK1 Punto Idle Revving / High Idle

Quote Originally Posted by jackwhoo View Post
Yes do that but if still doesn't pass I really think time for new catalytic converter given age and mileage of you current cat.

The coolant leaking core plug will need replacing repair when mot passed.
Good luck
Jack

The lambda correction needs to be graphed really to see the switching of the o2 sensor, I'm not 100% sure but it looks like the lambda correction looks like the o2 sensor voltage on a different scale.

If that is the case at least you can see if o2 sensor signal switching.

Don't get rid of new sensor , are there any numbers on the new sensor?
This afternoon I could tested it driving. And it feels awesome! The acceleration is soooo smooth, before it was rude, not linear. Now is so pleasant. Idle is perfect, it didn't hold at 2000 or any other revs, always going down to idle when shifthing gear. So idle issue finally solved!


Now the CO levels. After 30 kms driving I came home and check again the lambda,it is always so close to 1 if not 1, so perfect. I'm gonna try tomorrow early in the morning, to get as much as possible oxygen whit lower temperatures.
Video of the Lambda reading. voltage is not available for this car, I guess because the connection is just the 3 pin cable, so "OBD1".Or I couldn't find it...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAwiVzutXJc

The newer lambda removed has these numbers, which are the model and I would say the date when manufactured. And now looks like this after cleaning it as well
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Old 1 Week Ago   #45
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Re: MK1 Punto Idle Revving / High Idle

Quote Originally Posted by majobusa View Post
This afternoon I could tested it driving. And it feels awesome! The acceleration is soooo smooth, before it was rude, not linear. Now is so pleasant. Idle is perfect, it didn't hold at 2000 or any other revs, always going down to idle when shifthing gear. So idle issue finally solved!


Now the CO levels. After 30 kms driving I came home and check again the lambda,it is always so close to 1 if not 1, so perfect. I'm gonna try tomorrow early in the morning, to get as much as possible oxygen whit lower temperatures.
Video of the Lambda reading. voltage is not available for this car, I guess because the connection is just the 3 pin cable, so "OBD1".Or I couldn't find it...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAwiVzutXJc

The newer lambda removed has these numbers, which are the model and I would say the date when manufactured. And now looks like this after cleaning it as well
I am so happy it is looking better for you ((-:

Thanks for picture of numbers on maxgear sensor they look nothing like a ntk/ngk sensor so it could confirm a cheap poorly made sensor.

I wish you very good luck for your test tomorrow.

Best wishes

Jack
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