Register Login
Lamps by Post - For all your lighting needs
Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2 Weeks Ago   #16
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Oxford - UK
Posts: 16,084
Thanks: 558
Trader Rating: 0
varesecrazy has donated!
United Kingdom 
Re: Using MES after timing belt change (phonic wheel)

Worth mentioning to the 'experts' who charged plenty for the cambelt change..
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

varesecrazy is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 1 Week Ago   #17
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Edinburgh Scotland
Posts: 41
Thanks: 1
Trader Rating: 0
United Kingdom 
Re: Using MES after timing belt change (phonic wheel)

Quote Originally Posted by varesecrazy View Post
Worth mentioning to the 'experts' who charged plenty for the cambelt change..
Been very busy with other stuff for the last few days so haven't been thinking about the Punto. However something has happened which made me remember - The timing tool kit has arrived! Yipee! So now everything is in place to get on with my boy's car. The only fly in the ointment is that we had planned to do it during his recent leave days, that's gone now due to the delay (the order went in, via eBay, on Oct 19th. Due to abortive shipping attempts, I took delivery on the morning of 7th Nov). He works unsociable hours with very little notice of when his shift times will be so it may be a wee while before I get my hands on it which, as it's a 2012 car with about 4500 miles on it, is making me slightly twitchy!

Anyway, I've just been catching up on the thread and Charlie's post about the cost of a cambelt change set me to thinking that some of you might be interrested in the research I did whilst trying to decide whether to let a "professional" do it or do it myself. Bearing in mind I worked as a mechanic in the late '60's, '70's and '80's I was not too concerned with physically doing the job. But how did the expenses stack up? Tools and potentialy expensive parts needed to be bought and I only had my VCDS (VAG-com, as it used to be) generic scanner which I've never tried on a Fiat and anyway it wouldn't do a service reset on it let alone anything more technical. Besides, I really really would like my own Multiecuscan! So I started ringing and visiting workshops and exploring the internet possibilities. Herewith a sumation of the results:-

First off I rang a couple of large (Posh showroom type) Fiat dealer service departments:-
To renew timing belt and water pump inclusive of fluids etc. 426
Major service (special price) 169
Total cost 595
Both dealers, not surprisingly, quoted virtually identical prices. I'm not sure what the special price on the service is all about. I was offered it without asking or any particular explanation of why I qualified for it so it was probably that months "special". Stupidly didn't ask what the standard price would be! Both wanted to know why I wanted to renew the water pump. They suggested that it is often not necessary, that it would normaly be checked during the procedure and only changed if necessary! I was told it would save a worthwhile amount if it didn't need changing. Now I don't know about you, but I don't know how you can "check" an installed pump and predict that it is going to outlast the new belt which you are about to fit? On installations where the pump is part of the timing belt drive train (as it is on this Punto) I would always renew the pump. (seen too many with collapsed or seized bearings and the very annoyingly expensive results) in fact I would always renew the pump even where it wasn't an integral part of the drivetrain but was so buried on the engine that to change it would require the timing belt to be removed for access.

So, sweating at the prospect of that expense, I approached quite a few smaller independant workshops. Generally speaking they were all very friendly and prepared to talk and answer questions. (I think they were a bit surprised at this "Old Boy" who actually seemed to know what they were talking about!) As we know this family of engines turn up in quite a few makes of car and these smaller garages were all familiar with it. I chatted with most of them about how they would do the job. Nearly all said they would automatically buy a belt kit which included the water pump unless the customer specifically said they only wanted the belt fitted on it's own. Not one of them could produce a locking tool kit, although two said they could rent one from a trade source if needed (My local factor rents them out to trade sources only). Several said, however, that they've done them in the past by tipp-exing the pulleys and never had a problem. None said the cam cover needed to be removed, knew what a Phonic Wheel Relearn was, why you would want to do it, and only had generic scanners (Bosch, Snap on, etc). All considered it an "easy job" and were happy to take it on. Several were familiar enough with parts prices to quote on the spot with the others saying they would like to check the cost of the belt kit but knew they could "knock spots" off the Main Dealer price. These quotes were verbal and varied a bit so I've averaged them out for comparison:-
To renew timing belt and water pump etc. 235
Major service (There was about a 30 variation here) 185
Total cost 420

Then I looked at Multiecuscan and decided that, if I could justify it, the Multiplexed version with its bluetooth capability, single interface, multi device instalation, etc, was the one I'd like. Whilst making my mind up I pestered Mike West at Gendan on many occassions with what he probably found to be "stupid" questions. He was very patient and answered all my concerns very fully. I can strongly recommend this company. The other piece of equipment I didn't have was a kit of locking tools. There is a large selection, widely varying in price on eBay. The cheapest come from China directly, and would have saved me around 10, but I decided to buy from a British supplier as I felt that it would be easier to communicate if something went wrong (Boy was I glad!) I bought a Neilsen branded CT3395 kit and it looks robust and well finished. So here are the prices I actually bought things for:-
Multiecuscan Multiplexed version. (Don't tell the wife!) 234.95
Neilsen Timing Tool kit 45.00
Fuchs Titan 5w-40 engine oil (5 litres) 22.95
Gates Timing Belt kit (with water pump) 61.92
Air Filter 6.40
Oil Filter 2.60
Cabin Filter 4.28
Cam Cover Gasket 10.40
Spark Plugs (4 off standard type) 16.00 approx.
Antifreeze mix 10.00 approx.
Total cost 414.50

So. Wow, I can do it myself for the sort of money an independant is going to charge and end up with a set of locking tools and a multiplexed version of MES to "play" with when I've finished! So it was no contest. I ordered everything up. The only thing that fell apart was the delivery on the timing tools which took two abortive attempts and a change to another delivery service before it got to me. I live in Edinburgh and have never had a problem before so what went wrong this time? well who knows.

As a wee follow up to the main dealer recommendation it may interrest you to know that during my investigations I turned up a very nice, but overpriced, 2010 Dynamic Eco Panda - a model I'm looking for for my wife - I contacted the dealer, who was another branch of the dealer network that gave me the "Dealer price quotes" you see above to get details of service history etc and to ask if there was any proof of the cam belt having been done. Didn't know but would ring me back. 20 minutes later a phone call to tell me "Yes it has been done by us as part of the sales preparation" and was the water pump done as well? Another wait and the information that was "NO, it didn't need one"??!! Oh deary me! I despair!

Anyway folks, hope you found the above interresting. I feel I could have probably got some of these prices down by playing one against the other, especially some of the smaller workshops, but I think the above comparissons are valid and realistic. It would be interresting to know how these prices compare with other parts of the country if anyone has recently done any costing.

That's all for now folks I'll keep updating as the Punto timing belt and service work progresses. Especially the comparison I want to do between the accuracy of using the locking tools and doing it with Tipp-ex marks on the pulleys/belt/engine casings.
Please do let me know if all this is just too boring and I'll stop. In the meantime, good night, I'm off to bed!
Likes varesecrazy liked this post
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

Pugglt Auld Jock is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 1 Week Ago   #18
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Edinburgh Scotland
Posts: 41
Thanks: 1
Trader Rating: 0
United Kingdom 
Re: Using MES after timing belt change (phonic wheel)

Quote Originally Posted by bigshineybike View Post
At last, I think mine is fixed.
In my new to Fiats opinion Italian tune up cannot be done without the Multiecuscan.

I tried that and nothing happened. So I bought the kit from Gendan following a helpful phone call. The lead and software came to around 100. (They confirmed that the OBD lead I use for my Triumph motorbike is VAGcom and so not the same chip set or something).
I did struggle setting up the laptop I wasn't reading the paperwork accurately enough beware and tread carefully. I set the com 4 port to 9600 baud, also in settings my lead was called OBD link usb/bluetooth rather than any of the other suggestions which made more sense to me.

And so with the lead connected to the car and recognised etc I was able to go into a menu which resets parameters. choose 'Phonic wheel learn' and delete the existing parameters. An instuction and warnng panel flashes on the screen describing and warning of the need for the previously spoken of Italian tune up. once we tap that button; the engine MIL lamp, the warning triangle and the stop / start lamp all began to flash.
Took the car for a drive away from neighbours and a chance to warm it up. rev the knackers off it three times holding it for a few seconds each time and then all the warning lamps went off.
I turned off the engine counted slowly to ten and took it for a test drive.
for now it all seems to be fixed.

to keep my story together here is a brief history. Fiat 500 2012 500l 8v
routine service by Alfa main dealer, they changed cam belt and told us they had detected a misfire and that we should consider a new coil pack. didn't spot the connection. In regular use the car was fine.
On the motorway some months after that service the MIL light came on. Rac called and suggested coil pack. P0300, P0304 P0301codes recorded
we swapped coil pack, plug leads spark plugs.
Came to fiatforum and heard about Phonic wheel. Bought MES software.
See above.
Hi bigshineybike. I intended to thank you, in my last post, for detailing your experience with your 500. I find it very interesting that it did not respond to the "Italian Tune Up" without any preparatory work. Having read quite a number of posts on the subject some people seem to have had success but they seem to report flashing lights etc before attempting the proceedure so maybe the ECU was already in mode to accept it? Others, with older cars, say to disconnect the battery for a while to reset it. ( I can understand that working). However on later model vehicles, like my boy's Punto, there does seem to be the need to use Multiecuscan to set the ECU up to accept the new values. I seem to have gathered though that not all engines need this reset, the 16valve engines being a case in point? Or am I mistaken? Anyway, won't be long now and I'll be discovering all about this for myself!

Interesting also to hear of the configuration problems you had (baud rates etc.) Although my Multiecuscan is successfully installed on my laptop, I haven't yet had the chance to connect to my boy's Punto as he's always working. Something to look forward to!

Not sure if I like the term Italian Tune Up? In my workshop days an Italian Tune Up would mean getting a car nicely warmed up and then driving it hard, but not dangerously, - the idea being to stress the engine so as to burn out all the gungy deposits. We did not do it often but it could work well on a vehicle that had spent it's life toddling a couple of miles down the road to the shops, sitting a while and then toddling home. Quite probably without the temp gauge even moving off it's stop! Luckily I was seldom asked to do it as the younger mechanics were always happy to oblige!
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

Pugglt Auld Jock is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Reply
Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump
Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
(Tu) change phonic wheel on iaw16f grofone Cinquecento / Seicento 2 14-11-2016 20:59
(G) Timing belt change? ElectronicFur Stilo 16 27-01-2012 22:37
(G) Cam Belt/Timing Belt Change Just to be Safe quaffle Punto (Mk2/2b) 12 31-03-2011 16:51
(T) Timing belt change Rustbucket Barchetta 2 19-02-2010 16:49