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Old 1 Week Ago   #46
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Re: Fiat Punto 1.2 (2002)Hotwire start problem

I have to agree with Davren, you are getting too involved in details.

This car's ignition and security system IS NOT LIKE OLDER CARS. You CANNOT bypass the security with wires. Do not remove the steering lock. A brief description of how the security works is :
1/ There is a code chip embedded in the key
2/ A coil near the lock enegises the code chip and the lock node (electronics unit) reads the code. It also (dependent on exact model) allows the lock mode to engage the starter when the key is turned.

3/ If the code is one of those programmed in the lock node it passes the code and the lock nodes own code to the body computer node.
4/ If the lock and key codes match those programmed in the body computer. it pases the key code and the body computer code to the Engine Control Unit (ECU).
5/ If they match the codes programmed in the ECU it enables igntion and fuel injection.
if any of these steps fail the car won't start. Apart from faulty units the communication (CAN) may cause problems and my be a different unit on the CAN bus. You might have a faulty instrument cluster for instance. Just losing the CAN configuration can be an issue (there is a process called Proxi-Alignment that will reset this). Or as Davren says you could have a bad battery or broken connection.


This is somewhat generalised, it depends on the exct model and electronics units fitted.


Note that the key, the lock node, body computer and ECU are ALL coded. The codes in lock node, body computer and ECU are progrmmed by the factory and must match. You can't swap individual units between cars. If you want to replace one of these you have to order it from Fiat with the security details of the car (some repair companies can clone a partially faulty unit for some items).
Making ad-hoc modifcations to the wiring is making things much more difficult to sort out.

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Old 1 Week Ago   #47
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Re: Fiat Punto 1.2 (2002)Hotwire start problem

Quote Originally Posted by g8rpi View Post
I have to agree with Davren, you are getting too involved in details.

This car's ignition and security system IS NOT LIKE OLDER CARS. You CANNOT bypass the security with wires. Do not remove the steering lock. A brief description of how the security works is :
1/ There is a code chip embedded in the key
2/ A coil near the lock enegises the code chip and the lock node (electronics unit) reads the code. It also (dependent on exact model) allows the lock mode to engage the starter when the key is turned.

3/ If the code is one of those programmed in the lock node it passes the code and the lock nodes own code to the body computer node.
4/ If the lock and key codes match those programmed in the body computer. it pases the key code and the body computer code to the Engine Control Unit (ECU).
5/ If they match the codes programmed in the ECU it enables igntion and fuel injection.
if any of these steps fail the car won't start. Apart from faulty units the communication (CAN) may cause problems and my be a different unit on the CAN bus. You might have a faulty instrument cluster for instance. Just losing the CAN configuration can be an issue (there is a process called Proxi-Alignment that will reset this). Or as Davren says you could have a bad battery or broken connection.


This is somewhat generalised, it depends on the exct model and electronics units fitted.


Note that the key, the lock node, body computer and ECU are ALL coded. The codes in lock node, body computer and ECU are progrmmed by the factory and must match. You can't swap individual units between cars. If you want to replace one of these you have to order it from Fiat with the security details of the car (some repair companies can clone a partially faulty unit for some items).
Making ad-hoc modifcations to the wiring is making things much more difficult to sort out.

Robert G8RPI.
The immobilizer seems to be working in his car.
The immobilizer light comes on, and goes off after 1 second, which is the normal behavior. If there was a problem, the light would remain on.
The engine cranks even without the code. I still think this could be a bad battery.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #48
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Re: Fiat Punto 1.2 (2002)Hotwire start problem

He's done so much it's hard to tell what is going on. Immobiliser light out does not mean the ECU is unlocked. Even at this late stage getting diagnostic on it is essential to find out what is going on.

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Re: Fiat Punto 1.2 (2002)Hotwire start problem

tbh at this stage Id be considering a second hand lockset/ecu/fusebox etc from ebay
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Re: Fiat Punto 1.2 (2002)Hotwire start problem

Quote Originally Posted by nikrox View Post
tbh at this stage Id be considering a second hand lockset/ecu/fusebox etc from ebay
But a bad battery hasn't been ruled out yet. I think we are pretty much at the first step yet.
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Re: Fiat Punto 1.2 (2002)Hotwire start problem

Quote Originally Posted by nikrox View Post
The battery may hold a charge BUT not have enough amps to turn the starter motor over..and hence the big old lump of the motor...

A battery has really got to be your first investment.

Whereabouts in the UK are you?
I totally agree...
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Old 1 Week Ago   #52
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Re: Fiat Punto 1.2 (2002)Hotwire start problem

Thank you for your reply Robert G8RPI. ...I appreciate your comments and detailed description..

Reading your replies so far.... It gives me some new details and info that was not aware about and maybe if what you suggest is correct... it may now be unikely that I will be able to resolve my problems unless I am willing to spend a certain ammount of money that I may consider could become more expensive than I am willing to spend on the car if say I was unable to deal with the thing myself and if I have to pay a mechanic to do it for me... as I suspect the computer side of analysing a car to rectify such possible faults is likely to be probably more expensive compared to what repairing an old car back over 20 years ago may had cost me if I was trying to resolve a similar ignition or starting problem..

Its times like this when I wished that I just had an older type car that I was more used to dealing with....and probably could have a chance of dealing with it myself or with an associate...

but I now get the impression that since they brought in Computers... that most car owners are now at the frustrations of having to pay more to have their or any similar related problems resolved at the hand of the garages rather than self analysis and self repair..Also that some may see it also as a type of big brother having now decided all our cars are now protected and connected by computers in one way or another...as I assume at higher costs...

unless what you suggest using the online links that you refer to can be done by Mr Average at lower cost expence.. than a local mechanic would cost to resolve or analyse ones car..

I think I get the impression that you seem to be quite knowledgable in ref to the technical side to the Computer systems now used in more modern cars over the last 20 years.

If it is some how possible for me to access Multiecuscan and the Elm327 Interface... or get or find someone who may have access to it and who would be willing to maybe use it to take a look at my car with it... (Maybe one of the Mechanics local to me could do it cheaper than main garages ) then providing what it may cost to investigate... I may consider trying that approach...but I will have to consider if it would be worth doing based upon if its economical in ref to what I think it is worth to my present situation..

if what you describe can be obtained at low costs or mainly for free... (other than my time) and if I think its somethin that I could do... I think id be willing to give it go..

but I suspect that it will need someone who has a certain ammount of Higher level Technical knowledge or abilities such as a mechanic and is likely to cost a minimum of say 40 GBPs an hr.. that I did not really want to payout ..especially in the event that I still was unable to solve the problem as it would be added costs to what may still end up as just a car worth 80 to 100 GBP scrap value..

It is now concerning that my actions to mess around with the fusebox / computer / wire connetions etc may now have created further problems...
I did not realise that such actions may or could have created such further such concerns / issues ...


---------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------

I must admit to not having read the whole thread, but what you NEED to do is get decent diagnostics on the car to see what the various computers on the car "think" is going on. The security system is not in one box, it is in several modules and they must all have access to the validation data for the car to start. This is an electronic system, disconnecting, jumpering or shorting around modules like the "fuse box", actually the body computer, is likely to cause damage. It is quite possible you have more than one fault now.
You cannot "hot-wire" this car.

For diagnostics I highly recommend Multiecuscan (MES) www.multiecuscan.net
You also need a Elm327 usb interface and a laptop.
An interface that works is

www.ebay.co.uk/itm/compatible-Fiat-Alfa-Lancia-diagnostic-ELM-327-OBD2-interface-fits-Multiecuscan/281166266540?

You cannot keep the car on the road or in a public car park unless it is taxed and insured. It has to be on private land. This has always been the case in the UK. If the police or the DLVA don't give you a ticket your local council is likely to tow it away and crush it.

Robert G8RPI.

---------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------

Your reply does seem to give me a good description as to how the Keycode computer system works compared to my prior basic understanding of how the older ignition starting systems worked...

Yes it does seem rather a much more complex system in todays more modern cars in comparision to the way the older cars could be analysed or ascessed and repaired or corrected in ref to getting the
ignition and starting system to become rectified and to get back working again...

For myself as much as I appreciate the security aspects on the cars modern computer systems.... It really does concern me just how now that to get ones car repaired or working again...
that it is no longer something any of us can do without having to involve using specilised equipment and having high technical knowledge..

I assume generally it is now much more expensive to resolve a cars damaged issues to do with ignition and starting problems compared to the older systems we had prior to computers came in..

but on average how the costs actually could compare... I am unsure...

or would you maybe disagree and say that there are still ways to rectify such problems as my present issues at a relatively low costs if you know how best to go about it and have access to
the required equipment to achive it such as laptop and software / interface etc...


-------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------------

I have to agree with Davren, you are getting too involved in details.

This car's ignition and security system IS NOT LIKE OLDER CARS. You CANNOT bypass the security with wires. Do not remove the steering lock. A brief description of how the security works is :
1/ There is a code chip embedded in the key
2/ A coil near the lock enegises the code chip and the lock node (electronics unit) reads the code. It also (dependent on exact model) allows the lock mode to engage the starter when the key is turned.

3/ If the code is one of those programmed in the lock node it passes the code and the lock nodes own code to the body computer node.
4/ If the lock and key codes match those programmed in the body computer. it pases the key code and the body computer code to the Engine Control Unit (ECU).
5/ If they match the codes programmed in the ECU it enables igntion and fuel injection.
if any of these steps fail the car won't start. Apart from faulty units the communication (CAN) may cause problems and my be a different unit on the CAN bus. You might have a faulty instrument cluster for instance. Just losing the CAN configuration can be an issue (there is a process called Proxi-Alignment that will reset this). Or as Davren says you could have a bad battery or broken connection.


This is somewhat generalised, it depends on the exct model and electronics units fitted.


Note that the key, the lock node, body computer and ECU are ALL coded. The codes in lock node, body computer and ECU are progrmmed by the factory and must match. You can't swap individual units between cars. If you want to replace one of these you have to order it from Fiat with the security details of the car (some repair companies can clone a partially faulty unit for some items).
Making ad-hoc modifcations to the wiring is making things much more difficult to sort out.

Robert G8RPI.
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Last edited by Puntog; 1 Week Ago at 22:03.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #53
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Re: Fiat Punto 1.2 (2002)Hotwire start problem

Hi Robert,

I may take me a bit of time to read up and research the website links that you have given me.. which I thank you for and appreciate....as it may offer me some hope.

On a quick initial browse.. I note that there seems a FREE copy f Multiecuscan ..

Can I ask do you think that I may be OK using the free version to at least try to do some initial basic analysis...

and would that ebay ELM 327 item likely be compatable for my Fiat Punto as it seems to refer to a Fiat Alfa Lancia !

If I struggle to get a suitable laptop...(I dont have any local electric supplies near where the the car has been parked and my main laptop I use has a damaged battery...but I do have another laptop that maybe ok but I am not used to using it and I think its windows vista where as I am used to using Windows XP on my main laptop ).

I wonder if I can maybe use an I Phone....I note that the website has this message on it..

Multiecuscan 1.1 is now available on App Store for iPhone/iPad devices!


In ref to the other things that you refer to...Tax / Ins

Yes I am aware of those things...

Presently I am on a SORN and have the car on Private Land... that initially I thought that I had the right to park my car on... but have recenly been asked by the owners to remove my car..

But as it was Unfortunately damaged ...on that land... I am now unable to start the car due to the problems that I have described in the thread..

I have tried to find an alternative place to take it to to park it..nearby. and ideally wanted the get my car at least to start again and I am willing to drive it to a new location if I am able to park elsewhere somewhere...where I would drive it their when its most quite at night time maybe or early morning...

BUT I have also tried to ask my council for places that I could park ...as at one time they used to offer some guidence...when I had similar things occur in the past..
BUT NOW hey no longer will tell me other than tell me that I have to ask permision fron any private land owner or try to find someone who will letme park it on their drive way ... ie thse sort of things...

otherwise they said if someone reports it.. or they find it where is is not allowed to be on public land.. that they will tow it away or clamp it and fine me.. etc

seems there is little places anymore that some one can park a SORNED car without having to do a lot of messing around trying to find a suitable place...

If I am unable to resolve things soon... I may well have to give in and let the scrap yard take it away..



Quote Originally Posted by g8rpi View Post
@Puntog

I must admit to not having read the whole thread, but what you NEED to do is get decent diagnostics on the car to see what the various computers on the car "think" is going on. The security system is not in one box, it is in several modules and they must all have access to the validation data for the car to start. This is an electronic system, disconnecting, jumpering or shorting around modules like the "fuse box", actually the body computer, is likely to cause damage. It is quite possible you have more than one fault now.
You cannot "hot-wire" this car.

For diagnostics I highly recommend Multiecuscan (MES) www.multiecuscan.net
You also need a Elm327 usb interface and a laptop.
An interface that works is

www.ebay.co.uk/itm/compatible-Fiat-Alfa-Lancia-diagnostic-ELM-327-OBD2-interface-fits-Multiecuscan/281166266540?

You cannot keep the car on the road or in a public car park unless it is taxed and insured. It has to be on private land. This has always been the case in the UK. If the police or the DLVA don't give you a ticket your local council is likely to tow it away and crush it.

Robert G8RPI.
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Last edited by Puntog; 1 Week Ago at 22:09.
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Re: Fiat Punto 1.2 (2002)Hotwire start problem

Thanks for your thoughts on if the thread reply you made may work with my Punto..

I was considering trying to take it off as I can not seem to find a way to remove what I thought was the KEYCODE section from the Ignition...

The Two front wires (that got cut from whee they go into the fusebox computer )on the ignition for example do not seem to be removable without cutting them off...
if that is part of the keycode...

I say this as one mechanic did suggest that I replaced the keycode section.. that I thought he was referring was on the ignition key barrel section ..

that I thought was inside what you see in the image below..inside the barrel itself ...

but I am not sure that its easy to remove as I can see two bolts but they dont sem to easy to get a suitable spanner on to undo the bolts..

BUT as I now seem to be advised NOT to remove anything further... at least until I have managed to get a Multiecusan scan done... then I will avoid doing this for now..

I may try to see if another local mechanic who I have spoken with if he maybe able to advise me or maybe offer me some guidence as what I maybe able to try if I cannot manage to deal with the scan myself..



Quote Originally Posted by Davren View Post
I'm not familiar with the Punto, but it's very likely to be the same method to remove the steering lock as I posted the the Uno thread you've quoted.

Can't help thinking that you are getting way too involved with this before you've accertained that the starter motor, battery and thier wiring are working correctly.
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Re: Fiat Punto 1.2 (2002)Hotwire start problem

That may be another consideration I may opt for Nikrox...

Thanks for your suggestions..

Quote Originally Posted by nikrox View Post
tbh at this stage Id be considering a second hand lockset/ecu/fusebox etc from ebay
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Old 6 Days Ago   #56
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Re: Fiat Punto 1.2 (2002)Hotwire start problem

Quote Originally Posted by Puntog View Post
Hi Robert,

I may take me a bit of time to read up and research the website links that you have given me.. which I thank you for and appreciate....as it may offer me some hope.

On a quick initial browse.. I note that there seems a FREE copy f Multiecuscan ..

Can I ask do you think that I may be OK using the free version to at least try to do some initial basic analysis...

and would that ebay ELM 327 item likely be compatable for my Fiat Punto as it seems to refer to a Fiat Alfa Lancia !

If I struggle to get a suitable laptop...(I dont have any local electric supplies near where the the car has been parked and my main laptop I use has a damaged battery...but I do have another laptop that maybe ok but I am not used to using it and I think its windows vista where as I am used to using Windows XP on my main laptop ).

I wonder if I can maybe use an I Phone....I note that the website has this message on it..

Multiecuscan 1.1 is now available on App Store for iPhone/iPad devices!


In ref to the other things that you refer to...Tax / Ins

Yes I am aware of those things...

Presently I am on a SORN and have the car on Private Land... that initially I thought that I had the right to park my car on... but have recenly been asked by the owners to remove my car..

But as it was Unfortunately damaged ...on that land... I am now unable to start the car due to the problems that I have described in the thread..

I have tried to find an alternative place to take it to to park it..nearby. and ideally wanted the get my car at least to start again and I am willing to drive it to a new location if I am able to park elsewhere somewhere...where I would drive it their when its most quite at night time maybe or early morning...

BUT I have also tried to ask my council for places that I could park ...as at one time they used to offer some guidence...when I had similar things occur in the past..
BUT NOW hey no longer will tell me other than tell me that I have to ask permision fron any private land owner or try to find someone who will letme park it on their drive way ... ie thse sort of things...

otherwise they said if someone reports it.. or they find it where is is not allowed to be on public land.. that they will tow it away or clamp it and fine me.. etc

seems there is little places anymore that some one can park a SORNED car without having to do a lot of messing around trying to find a suitable place...

If I am unable to resolve things soon... I may well have to give in and let the scrap yard take it away..
Hi Yes, try the free version of multiecuscan first. The interface I listed will work with your Punto for this (And most other Fiats & Alfa Romeos.With different software it will work with many other cars too.)
MES will work with XP or any newer version of windows. I've not tried the Apple version as I don't use Apple computers.


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Re: Fiat Punto 1.2 (2002)Hotwire start problem

Forget about diagnostics until you can operate the starter from the ignition switch.

The ignition switch should operate the starter motor even if the electronics are destroyed.

Fault find the starter problem first.
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