Technical Fiat Punto 1.2 (2002)Hotwire start problem

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Technical Fiat Punto 1.2 (2002)Hotwire start problem

:)

There was some method to getting the starter to work.

About 5 posters have commented this could be an earth problem. If the OP cannot work out why the starter does not work which ostensibly is an extremely simple thing to fault find then he has no hope of working thru more complex diagnostics. It is always best to keep things as simple as possible no matter how knowledgeable we might believe ourselves to be.

The OP is lost in a sea of complexity without looking at first things first.


ps. I dont think the OP's 8V car has the same kind of buzzing throttle as the 16V car has. Certainly many did not have that kind of throttle.

By the way I am 64 today which probably makes me old and cranky by most peoples standards here.
He has the 16V, at least the said so. And it seem to be the Punto sport version.


He can't crank the engine, but maybe because he has a bad battery. I don't think he tested that.
 
Hi Cranshaft/ Judder

I think that I can hear something similar as in your video...

but for what ever reason the engine does not start...

Yes all the lights etc more or less appear to still show up on the dash board..

BUT they do not all come on... as the light switch was removed when the car got damaged... yet the lights on the dash for them appear to show up..

As I have said prior.... I recharged the battery and in my opinion I thought it was sufficiently charged to have at least got the car to start even though as I have said the battery is old...

when I put it on the battery chrager... when it was run down... the needle was at the mid point but after I charged it for say 10 hrs... it moved to what I believe was the charged position.... ie to one end of the meter...

As I have also said I believe that I had reconnected the two wires... that were broke and came from the front end of the ignition barrel and went to the dash board fusebox / computer...

I also point out if I connect the rear wires that come out of the ignition... I can get the starter motor to work...but again the engine wont start just by doing that...

so I suspect there is some other probem somewhere and maybe its an earth problem or something else in the wirings..


I believe your ignition switch is working fine.
Easy way to test, when you turn the key, ignition on, but engine off.
If you go to the engine compartment, can you hear this sound from the throttle body: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdVaGUTXu8Y


Can you listen to the fuel pump working for like 3 seconds, when you turn the ignition ON, but engine off?
Lights and windows are working?

If so, your ignition switch is likely not the problem.

have you replaced the battery?
 
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Upon speaking with another mechanic today..who may be able to help me for a reasonable fee to do some basic analysis on my car issue / starting problem in which he says he can do a laptop computer multiescan test on it ...
which I may consider...

In my conversation with him...and from what I explained to him in how I thought that I had reconnected the relevant wires back... and was now led to believe that the keycode issue seemed to suggest that part was still ok as the keycode light goes out on my speedo screen dash panel ...

He also seemed to think that the car should now start ok...from what I had told and explained to him...

but he then also asked me in more detail about my battery... as as I had told him how old it was.... he suggested if the car had not been started for say over 12 months... that the battery could now easily fail to hold its charge.. even though I thought that it was recharged ok after I had charged it for 1 hours and the meter seemed to indicate it was fully charged.... (which when I have done this in previous times has always continued to start my car or fire up the engine ok)

He says if he does help me that he will bring his car and connect his battery to mine with jump leads..

As I no longer have any easy way to get my battery tested... as there used to be a car shop that offered free battery tests that unforunately has since closed down..
and I am not aware of any other similar facility in my area who would do free battery tests..unfortunately..

I may be able to get my brother to try connecting his car battery with jump leads if he is willing to help me... but when I have asked for his help previously he n longer wants to get involved and just always suggest that I get rid of the car..

or if I can find somewhere maybe a halfords or another garage who could test my battery...I may be able to put the battery in a strong bag and cycle to take it...as carrying it such a long distance for me would be a struggle..unless its within 10 mins walk...

so depending what happens... I may get lucky if I am someow able to get him to offer his battery power to at least seee if that makes all the difference with full battery power....and that hopefully will help answer if that is the problem.

but as a last resort I may consider paying the mechanic...

BUT I was also NOT sure if what Robert g8rpi had been suggesting in ref to the
diagnastic testing if maybe he was still thinking that was something that maybe had to be or should /could be done if maybe he was thinking from my explanations that he was thinking that there was some other reason why the car would not start other than it likely being a battery issue...

Unfortunately Robert has not replied back, since so far...

after writing this reply ,... I just did a quick check online to see if Halfords could d a free battery check and it seems that the say that they do..

so I think that will try to take my car battery to my closest Halfords..and ask if they think that the battery i holding enough charges to start my car.. at least say for say 1 to 5 /10 attempts...

www.halfordsautocentres.com/car-batteries/free-battery-check




g8rpi Re: Fiat Punto 1.2 (2002)Hotwire start problem
He's done so much it's hard to tell what is going on. Immobiliser light out does not mean the ECU is unlocked. Even at this late stage getting diagnostic on it is essential to find out what is going on.

Robert G8RPI.
 
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Just to update you..

I was delayed in further work on my car...

but I have now took the battery to Halfords for their free battery check...

and the results were that the battery was dead... and it would not even print out a ticket to confirm it as it just did not have enough power according to the man who checked it..

which surprised me as I had charged it and as I have said in prior recent tests after id charged it... I was at least able to get the starter motor to fire up when I connected the two wires from the rear of the ignition.

I am now going to have to see if I can get someone to give me a jump start and see if it will start using that method..
 
Just to update you..

I was delayed in further work on my car...

but I have now took the battery to Halfords for their free battery check...

and the results were that the battery was dead... and it would not even print out a ticket to confirm it as it just did not have enough power according to the man who checked it..

which surprised me as I had charged it and as I have said in prior recent tests after id charged it... I was at least able to get the starter motor to fire up when I connected the two wires from the rear of the ignition.

I am now going to have to see if I can get someone to give me a jump start and see if it will start using that method..

Please dont say you DIDNT buy a battery...
 
In ref to the battery...

So far I ave not bought a new battery...and dont really want to have to do so if I can avoid it.. at least for the time being....

As the battery failed the test. and was suggested as dead..... Yet it still did show some power as it showed lights on the dash and worked the wiper motor..

What I also realise may be a issue was due to all my issues ..and problems .. I never checked the plates of the battery to see if they were covered.. and maybe they have dried up....So I believe that I may be able to improve it if I obtain some distilled water and maybe it could hold its charge a bit better to maybe still obtain enough power to try to start it...or maybe there is some other way to try to improve its performance....or other liquids one could use to cover the battery plates..

IF not then I will maybe risk buying just a 2nd hand battery for 10 GBPs...

WHAT I WILL SAY ....is I was able to persuade my brother to give me a jump start....after I replaced my dead battery in my car after I had tested it at halfords..

and to my surprise.... I am pleased to say that it did allow my engine to start or should I say fire...

BUT it would not continue to run... and I THINK the reason is because somehow the fuel gauge now appears as if there is no fuel in it at all....

So I need to now obtain some petrol in a can and try again ...either by trying to improve my dead battery or obtain another...

I appologise if this has been a battery issue all along to those who suggested this.
.

AS you know in the end I went and got it checked after I had tried every other thing that I mentioned in this thread..

But I will say that I really just did think it still had enough power to at least fire it once I had charged it up... which I had done for 10 hours or more..

It must be that it just was unable to hold enough charge to fire up the engine..

The other thing is when I put the battery back on the charger... after I had tried the car a few times since I had previously charged it... and then later took it for the halfords test...

when I looked at the meter... it did not appear to have moved the needle on the gauge... ie it still appeared as if It was charged...

So I am not 100 % sure what may have happened...and if it was a battery issue all along..

or if after all the other things that I tried may have also rectified any other possible problems... such as wiring issues etc...

BUT fingers crossed... at least Now I THINK that I have managed to solve the starting problem...

Appologies if the thread is boring... but I may have managed to solve my main problem for now..

The next thing I need to try to obtain is cheap windows that I need to replace..
or some sort of clear plastic type window screen to at least be able to move my car and have it look like it has some sort of clear windows.. rather than just be covered with plastic bin bags to try to keep the rain out...

As I say I just initially need to get the engine to start so I can try to move it elsewhere after I was asked by the land owner to move it from its present location.

I may now try to also sell it .. even for the engine and other parts etc and at least I can show any buyer that the engine works or fires up...

Thank you all who have advised and helped me so far..!



Nikrox
Please dont say you DIDNT buy a battery..

2668G
This thread is getting boring now
Push the bloody thing in the river and be done with it
 
So to start or fire up the engine via the starter motor...

that means that the battery has to be able to hold charge and be able to hold sufficient power or ampage of at least 100 Amps from a 12 volt battery...

If a battery is old and failing to hold much power / ampage..or sufficient voltage..

is it ever possible to find ways to improve its performance...

As I think I understand... its the quality of the sulfuric acid or chemical within the battery that reacts to power the battery...along with being charged from the alternator when in normal use..

Would it be possible to try to improve it using distilled water or some other solution..
or add further acid.... if say I just wanted to continue to try and use the battery for maybe just a few further starts until I am able to drive it to another location for the time being....

I will then later maybe consider obtaining another 2nd hand 10 GBP battery at some time if I continue to decide to either keep it or get some reponse if I get some enquiries if I try to sell it..

I dont want to have to buy a new battery just to drive eh car to another location on some private land ...that is likely to cost me a min of I estmate 30 GBPs...


Not sure if there may be some easier quicker less involved ways that one could try ...to at least get the car to fire up using the worn down battery
and to find a way to replensis it at least for a short period...
How to Restore a Car Battery

If you have an old car battery that has a low voltage output, it might be time to consider a small restoration project. Reviving worn- out car batteries is an important money and time-saver – and one that could save you from hardships in the future. Below, we take a look at how to refurbish a car battery and why it is so important.
When Should I Restore My Battery?
Car batteries are types of lead-acid batteries. This means they have lead-acid cores that can suffer a condition called sulfation over time. Sulfation occurs when sulfur accrues on the lead plates that reside inside the battery casing. It can be caused by overcharging, storing a battery at temperatures above 75°F or storing a battery when it’s not fully charged. An excess of sulfur build-up on a lead acid battery plate will increase charge times and heat build-up while reducing run time between charges; eventually, it can cause the battery to fail altogether.
Luckily, if there isn’t an over-abundance of sulfur corrosion, a car battery can be restored. This is much preferred to replacing a costly battery. In order to determine whether or not you should restore your car battery, consider the following details:

  • If your battery can no longer start your car, it is time to restore it.
  • A battery shouldn’t be restored if it has any major physical defects like burnt connectors, melted plastic housings or warped battery sides. In this case, it is best to replace the whole battery.
  • Most car batteries today last an average of four years. If your battery is older than four years and/or has perpetual trouble starting your car, regardless of frequent charging, it should be restored.
  • If you check the battery’s voltage multiple times with a voltmeter and the charge is consistently below 12 volts, it has most likely suffered from sulfation and should be restored.
Note: the longer your battery has been in a low-charge state, the less likely you will be able to restore it. Being in this state for weeks or even months can lead to permanent sulfation in lead-acid batteries. You can still apply our “How to Restore a Car Battery” guide, but know that it is not always successful even if there is no other damage.
With these factors in mind, it is time to gather your materials and restore your car battery.
Restoring Your Battery
You will need the following items to perform your battery restoration project:

  • Baking soda
  • Distilled water
  • A power drill
  • Magnesium sulfate (commonly known as Epsom salt)
  • Non-metallic storage funnel
  • Non-metallic storage container
  • P lastic replacement plugs
  • Safety glasses
  • A three-phase battery charger for lead-acid batteries
  • Water
  • Work gloves
  • A wrench
The first thing to do is turn your car off and let your car battery cool for about an hour. Once the battery is cool, open the car hood and use your wrench to detach the negative battery cable first and then the positive cable. Be sure not to touch your wrench to any other metal part of the car to avoid experiencing a small jolt of electricity. Now, carefully remove the battery from the car.
Take off the plastic cell caps on the topside of the battery and find the location of the sealed cells inside the casing indicated by small marks. Put on your safety glasses and drill into the sealed cells using your power drill. Put your work gloves on and turn the battery upside down above a non-metallic storage container to drain the fluid inside. Add baking soda to the battery fluid in slowly paced increments of tablespoons to neutralize it. Once the fluid stops bubbling, close the container tightly and take it to a hazardous waste disposal site.
Now, take your Epsom salt and stir one part of it into three parts warm, distilled water until you have one full quart of magnesium sulfate solution. Insert your non-metallic funnel into one of the now-open battery cells and carefully pour some of your magnesium sulfate solution into the battery. Lightly shake the battery to evenly distribute the solution inside and let the solution sit. Repeat this step for the other cells as well.
Make sure your three-phase battery charger is off before you clip the positive lead onto the positive battery terminal and the negative lead onto the negative battery terminal. Set the charger’s dial to 12 volts and then turn on the charger. Leave the trickle charge going for at least 12 full hours before turning it off and unclipping the leads from the battery terminals. After this is done, return the caps onto their cells – or use your plastic plugs to cover up the drilled holes – and reinsert the battery into its place underneath the car hood. Once, you have reconnected the positive cable first and then the negative cable to their terminals, you have successfully restored the battery. It is best to repeat this entire process at least once a week for one whole month in order to ensure that any remaining deposited sulfur is dissolved. This way, your battery will be healthier and last much longer.
https://garage.eastwood.com/tech-articles/restore-car-battery/



https://www.instructables.com/id/How-to-revive-old-lead-acid-batteries/

Can anyone advise if its possible to obtain some clear plastic tempory windows that I can obtain cheaply...

I believe that you can get temp plastic front window screens ..bu im not sure if car shops may be able to offer side windows that are more suitable rather than just using clear plastc bag type of materials...



Lights on the dash use less than 1 Amp.

Wiper motor uses about 7 to 10 Amps.

Started motor to turn a cold engine that hasn't been started for a while will require over 100 Amps.
.
 
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I came across a few other suggestions to improve a dead battery.

Has anyone ever tried any of these methods in their pat and had any success..

Aspirins are now another suggestion to Epsom Salts..

I seem to recall having come across battery tablets some years ago..

but I dont know if they are any good generally even just for emergency starts.


s-l1600.jpg


https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Granville-0020-Bat-Aid-Car-Battery-Tablets-/273745637196



http://www.fortunebay.org/dead-vehicle-battery-give-it-12-aspirin-and-be-home-by-morning/

Signs-Your-Car-Battery-Is-Dying-624x347.jpg
Dead Vehicle Battery? Give it 12 Aspirin and be home by morning. . .

“Dead, it’s dead”, you’re angry prepper friend says.
“What’s dead?” you ask, still in a happy mood after rappelling off the cliff face.
“The battery is dead and so is the jumper pack”, he adds with obvious frustration. “We are frickin’ 14 miles from nowhere and the Jeep won’t start.”
“Don’t you carry a spare battery in your BOB*”. (Prepper TLA* for “Bug Out Bag” *TLA – “Three Letter Acronym”)
“You can’t – it’s way too heavy!! Don’t you troll the prepper forums to learn about this stuff?”, he says with obvious authority for all things ‘internet’.
You contemplate his question, then with an air of curiosity you ask, “I thought you guys prepared for anything and even tested your gear before you left the house?”
“Dang it man, I have to be home before midnight and it is a 6 hour drive!”, he pleads.
“Ok, Ok – how about a can of coke and a bottle of aspirin, Prep, do you have that?”, you finally ask.
“Come on! What is that for?”
“The headache you’re gonna give me if you don’t shut up, but I thought I would fix the battery”, you retort.
He stares at you with a perfect balance of frustrated yin and awestruck yang – then he turns and waddles away while squealing a high pitch expletive.
“Fine”, you say quietly, “I’ll find it myself”. You stroll to the back of the Jeep, wiggle out of your climbing harness and toss it on the massive pile of gear. Then you pry the top of the cooler slip a can of coke out. You plunge your arm into the pile of gear and manage to extract the small first aid kit. You unzip the kit, find the full bottle of expired aspirin and whisper, “Excellent”.
Walking around to the front of the Vehicle, you notice Prep has returned. He says, “You are the most unprepared jackass I have ever met.” You smile and prop the hood open. You ask Prep to get a screw driver and a pair of needle nose pliers.
First, you check the connection of the battery clamps to the post to ensure a good connection and no corrosion. They are tight but quite corroded. You pop open the can of coke, take a drink then pour it on the battery clamps and posts.
This is what the process looks like. . .
Prep returns with the tools, you glance at him with a knowing smile. He grimaces and looks at the fizzy mess as the corrosion melts from the posts and clamps. You check the clamps for cracks or damage. They look OK.
Now, you have to get the battery to produce enough Volts and Amps to start the vehicle. Luckily, you have packed the right tool to do just that. This tool doesn’t weigh anything, it provides its own maintenance and improvements, adds more of itself often and is more valuable than any other piece of gear that you carry . . . knowledge.
Let’s review what we know about batteries.
A battery is created when two different metals or carbon rods (called electrodes) are placed in an electrically conductive medium (called an electrolyte). Stick a penny (copper-plated zinc) and a nickel (nickel/copper alloy) into a lemon, and you have a battery. Put a copper wire and aluminum wire into a jar of urine, and you have a battery. This you know from learning the concept of a battery in 8th grade science.

Prep is now looking at you with anticipation and curiosity. You contemplate your situation while drinking some of the coke.
Different metals react at different rates (i.e., create charged particles) with the electrolyte. This means one electrode will give up electrons at a faster rate than the other, creating an imbalance of the charge distribution in the electrolyte. Bits of charged electrolyte move from one electrode to the other (direction is positive to negative) to eliminate this imbalance. When these charged bits make contact with the negative electrode, they give up their electrons, and electricity is created. As this occurs, the lead electrodes become more chemically alike, the electrolyte becomes less active, and the voltage drops until the battery can no longer deliver the necessary voltage. Stimulating the electrolyte through some form of additive adds chemical energy to the system and may provide a brief energy boost to the battery. Feeding an electrical current back into the battery restores the chemical difference between the electrodes and recharges the battery (this doesn’t work for all batteries, but it works for car batteries).
Most car batteries are “lead acid” batteries. Lead-acid batteries are made up of plates of lead and separate plates of lead dioxide, which are submerged into an electrolyte solution of about 38% sulfuric acid and 62% water. This causes a chemical reaction that releases electrons, allowing them to flow through conductors to produce electricity.

You look at Prep with resolved eyes, “all we have to do is change the acid in the battery so that it will react with the lead and create electricity right?”
Prep says, “Sure”
You continue thinking out loud, “So, recharging the battery involves either finding a way to stimulate the electrolyte, or finding a way to feed electricity back into the battery.”
Prep says, “I guess so?”
“We could pour some cola into the battery. Start the car after a few minutes. Of course, you’ll have to replace the battery because we’ve destroyed it, but at least you’ll be home by midnight.”
Prep says, “it is an old battery, it doesn’t matter much. But won’t we need a battery to run the Jeep until we can buy a new one?”
“Ah yes, Old Prep, that could be a problem”
You continue, “We could. . . Remove the fluid from the battery. The Squeeze a dozen limes in the battery.”
“We don’t have limes”, Prep adds. “Right” you respond.
“We could also drink soda and urinate into the battery. Fill the remainder of the battery with the water. Wait 9 hours and put the battery back in.”
“Gotta be home in 12 hours – 6 hour drive”, Prep responds. “Right”, you confirm.
“Saliva, potato chip brine, hydrogen peroxide all would work in theory”, you mention.
While all this does works in theory, you have three disadvantages to this basic approach.

  1. Though the “theory is sound”, it generally won’t work in practice for a variety of reasons. The main reason is getting the proportions right.
  2. You can try them, but if they don’t work, you have likely ruined the battery and eliminated any other opportunity of getting the vehicle started.
  3. Several proposed additives run a real risk of blowing up the battery.

There is, however, one additive that you took out of the first aid kit that avoids these disadvantages.
The aspirin.
We can pry off the cap, pull any rubber stopper vents blocking the cells in the battery (there are 6 cells at 2 volts each). Put two tablets of aspirin in each battery cell and wait no more than 1 hour (the acetylsalicylic acid combines with the sulfuric acid to get off one more charge.) You can pry the cell covers off with a screwdriver even on most maintenance-free batteries.
As bizarre as this sounds, aspirin will often work depending on the degree of discharge of the battery. It is a reasonably safe approach and usually good for one more engine turn. Be warned that adding aspirin will shorten the battery life, as the aspirin will react with the sulfuric acid to form acetic acid. Good for a boost, but bad for the innards of the battery. Assuming you add no more than a couple of aspirins per cell, it shouldn’t cause significant damage nor preclude additional efforts if it fails to work. So there is at least one safe, viable way to have a reasonable shot at getting the vehicle restarted by stimulating the electrolyte.
You explain this to Prep. He doesn’t seem convince, but your options are limited so he says, “Well, let’s see if it works.”
You open the battery, crush several aspirin from the first aid kit, being careful to keep them segregated so there are two crushed aspirin for each cell. Then you put the powder in the battery, and add bottled water to fill it to the proper level. The acetylsalicylic acid from the aspirin will combine with the battery acid and increase the charge in the battery, and the water will help restore the electrolyte in the battery.
You replace the caps, gather your tools, finish the coke and jump in the Jeep. Turn the key and the engine starts right up. Though, we may need a new battery soon.
Prep hops in, points the way and says, “Let go.” You look at him with anticipation and realize, he doesn’t care, he just wants to get home. You smile, turn away to laugh, push the shifter in gear and take off. Leaving Prep’s BOB at the parking area. . .
Interested in learning more about improvising in the wilderness? Expeditions need improvisation to be successful. This is the kind of knowledge you will gain at the online School of Expeditionary Sciences. Click on the link to find out more.
Til next time, remember, “Knowledge Weighs Nothing”.


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https://prepperswill.com/revive-a-dead-car-battery-aspirin-epsom-salt/
 
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I wonder if anyone could advise on an better alternative material for usinging on a cars side windows as a temporary fix until I can afford or obtain some 2nd hand suitable replacement windows from a scrap yard.

Mateirials that are strong and clear...

such as perspex or acetate clear type material that is stronger and clearer than say just clear polythene sheet or material..

Its then wondering how best to cut it to shape and how best to insert and seal it..

Such as is it an idea to make some sort of frame for the material to act as windows and to be inserted inbetween..

Not sure if maybe I could create some sort of plastic or wood or even polythene covered card board like frame and clamp it around the acetate sheet..

there are various sizes of sheets that can be obtained and I have a local printer who I visited and asked if they had some suitable materials that they maybe throwing away..

They gave me two large sheets that are about 3 x 4 feet that are sticky on one side...so it will be able to stick onto a surface of some sort..

BUT its wondering HOW best to do this and how best to stick it...

this is some egs of what can be obtained

Larger sized A0 , A1 sheets to smaller A4 size

s-l1000.jpg


https://i.ebayimg.com/images/i/222465241335-0-1/s-l1000.jpg




https://www.lloydpaton.co.uk/acetat..._a4for_stencilsoverlayprinting_etc__C152.html
 
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