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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #1
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1.2 16v to 1.4 16v swap, Help!

Hello everyone, my girlfriends sporting's engine has died so as I could not find an replacement 1.2 16v engine, went for the 1.4 16v Stilo engine. The engines are identical and the swap was pretty straight forward but when I wanted to start the new engine it just turns over and does not start. The fuel and spark are there but does not start at all. The old engine did not have the cam sensor so I just left it unplugged. Used the old wiring loom and ecu. Any suggestions would be appreciated, thanks in advance!
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #2
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Re: 1.2 16v to 1.4 16v swap, Help!

Quote Originally Posted by noDi View Post
Hello everyone, my girlfriends sporting's engine has died so as I could not find an replacement 1.2 16v engine, went for the 1.4 16v Stilo engine. The engines are identical and the swap was pretty straight forward but when I wanted to start the new engine it just turns over and does not start. The fuel and spark are there but does not start at all. The old engine did not have the cam sensor so I just left it unplugged. Used the old wiring loom and ecu. Any suggestions would be appreciated, thanks in advance!
1. The cam sensor is only used to help the engine start in fewer starter motor rotations so that change can be ignored.

2. The fuel descriptions inside the 1.2 ECU memory cannot be exactly correct for the 1.4 engine but that might not be a huge problem as regards not starting.

If you have a tachometer it should read about something like 200 revs per minute when starting. I forget. either 150 or 250 revs when starting. It may be necessary to install the 1.2 crankshaft sensor to ensure you do not have an electronic mis-match between the currently installed 1.4 sensor and the different 1.2 ECU. But since you have a spark that does not seem to be the problem.

Otherwise I am assuming you would get the engine at least to do something other than do nothing.

You need to follow standard troubleshooting otherwise. Do you have any fault codes? presumably not. you need to check for OBDII codes anyway.

Did you see the 1.4 engine running or know its history?
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Last edited by judderbar; 4 Weeks Ago at 12:30.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #3
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Re: 1.2 16v to 1.4 16v swap, Help!

First of all, thanks for the reply! Today I tried replacing the crank sensor and pulley and still no signs of life. There are no obd fault codes stored, checked with an generic obd tool. The problem is i did not see the 1.4 engine run, took it out of a crash damaged Stilo that supposedly was running a month ago. Starting to think the engine itself is at fault but it should show at least some signs of life. The old engine was burning a litre of oil per week and was working on 3 cylinders but fired up right away. 😐
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #4
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Re: 1.2 16v to 1.4 16v swap, Help!

Quote Originally Posted by noDi View Post
First of all, thanks for the reply! Today I tried replacing the crank sensor and pulley and still no signs of life. There are no obd fault codes stored, checked with an generic obd tool. The problem is i did not see the 1.4 engine run, took it out of a crash damaged Stilo that supposedly was running a month ago. Starting to think the engine itself is at fault but it should show at least some signs of life. The old engine was burning a litre of oil per week and was working on 3 cylinders but fired up right away. 😐
Potentially the valve timing via the rubber belt driving the camshaft could be altered by the engine stopping suddenly in a crash. So check the valve timing.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #5
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Re: 1.2 16v to 1.4 16v swap, Help!

Quote Originally Posted by judderbar View Post
Potentially the valve timing via the rubber belt driving the camshaft could be altered by the engine stopping suddenly in a crash. So check the valve timing.
The timing marks on the cam and crank are dead on, the belt looks new. Overall state of the engine seems really good, it was obviously well maintained. I'm starting to run out of ideas . Wanted to send a p.m to a few members here who I guess did a similar swap but can't... Probably because I'm a newbie... @m20b25 and @dave
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #6
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Re: 1.2 16v to 1.4 16v swap, Help!

Quote Originally Posted by noDi View Post
The timing marks on the cam and crank are dead on, the belt looks new. Overall state of the engine seems really good, it was obviously well maintained. I'm starting to run out of ideas . Wanted to send a p.m to a few members here who I guess did a similar swap but can't... Probably because I'm a newbie... @m20b25 and @dave
On a 16v engine there are not timing 'marks' as such. the timing can be wrong when the cam is correct and the pistons are level.

I am not now sure if number 1 piston needs to be on the down stroke or the up stroke. I think on the down stroke.

Potentially the engine could be incorrectly timed and then sold because of failure to start when it just needs to be correctly timed

Either way on the 16V there are no official crankshaft timing marks
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Last edited by judderbar; 4 Weeks Ago at 12:05.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #7
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Re: 1.2 16v to 1.4 16v swap, Help!

Quote Originally Posted by judderbar View Post
On a 16v engine there are not timing 'marks' as such. the timing can be wrong when the cam is correct and the pistons are level.

I am not now sure if number 1 piston needs to be on the down stroke or the up stroke. I think on the down stroke.

Potentially the engine could be incorrectly timed and then sold because of failure to start when it just needs to be correctly timed

Either way on the 16V there are no official crankshaft timing marks
Just talked to a local engine swap "guru". He says that I need to put crank pulleys on both engines, put the first piston in tdc and then count the number of teeth from the pickup to the "0" on the pulley. He says that it wil probably be off/late by 2 or 3 teeth so I will need to widen the bolt holes and adjust accordingly. Does that make sense? The engine does give the symptoms of late ignition...
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #8
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Re: 1.2 16v to 1.4 16v swap, Help!

Quote Originally Posted by noDi View Post
Just talked to a local engine swap "guru". He says that I need to put crank pulleys on both engines, put the first piston in tdc and then count the number of teeth from the pickup to the "0" on the pulley. He says that it wil probably be off/late by 2 or 3 teeth so I will need to widen the bolt holes and adjust accordingly. Does that make sense? The engine does give the symptoms of late ignition...
The small hole in the crankshaft pulley should be over the raised 'dimple' in the crankshaft. There is no 0 on the pulley. I suppose you are talking about the area without teeth


Why does your guru think the crankshaft pulley could be incorrectly positioned by a few teeth? What logic is he using to believe it is possible?

The crankshaft pulley is correctly positioned for the ignition timing. The pulley under the crankshaft pulley is correctly positioned for valve timing when using the approved fiat method that does not use the position of the crankshaft to set the timing!

Why do you have late timing symptoms? You said you had no firing?

>>He says that I need to put crank pulleys on both engines

Why do you not have crank pulleys already on both engines??
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Last edited by judderbar; 4 Weeks Ago at 12:34.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #9
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Re: 1.2 16v to 1.4 16v swap, Help!

Quote Originally Posted by judderbar View Post
The small hole in the crankshaft pulley should be over the raised 'dimple' in the crankshaft. There is no 0 on the pulley.


Why does your guru think the crankshaft pulley could be incorrectly positioned by a few teeth? What logic is he using to believe it is possible?

The crankshaft pulley is correctly positioned for the ignition timing. The pulley under the crankshaft pulley is correctly positioned for valve timing when using the approved fiat method that does not use the position of the crankshaft to set the timing!

Why do you have late timing symptoms? You said you had no firing?

>>He says that I need to put crank pulleys on both engines

Why do you not have crank pulleys already on both engines??
By 0 on the pulley I mean the part that has no teeth. I removed the pulley from the old engine to compare them but found very little diffrence. Tried starting with each one with same results. The crankshaft does not have a dimple but a 3-4mm hole that alignes with the same hole on the pulley. The engine occasionaly "backfires" through the throttle body... Btw thanks for replying so quick
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #10
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Re: 1.2 16v to 1.4 16v swap, Help!

Quote Originally Posted by noDi View Post
By 0 on the pulley I mean the part that has no teeth. I removed the pulley from the old engine to compare them but found very little diffrence. Tried starting with each one with same results. The crankshaft does not have a dimple but a 3-4mm hole that alignes with the same hole on the pulley. The engine occasionaly "backfires" through the throttle body... Btw thanks for replying so quick
And you are sure you know how to correctly do the valve timing?
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Re: 1.2 16v to 1.4 16v swap, Help!

Quote Originally Posted by judderbar View Post
And you are sure you know how to correctly do the valve timing?
I myself did not interfere with timing on any of the two engines. Did a bit of reading today so if you can confirm this; the 1. and the 2. piston have to be mid-stroke and the slots on the intake and exhaust cams have to be in the middle of the holes in the side of the head. That means the engine is timed correctly? Am aware that there is a special tool kit involved and I won't be adjusting the timing without it. The up side of all this is it will make it easier for me to do the timing belt replacement on my Giulietta MA
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #12
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Re: 1.2 16v to 1.4 16v swap, Help!

Quote Originally Posted by noDi View Post
I myself did not interfere with timing on any of the two engines. Did a bit of reading today so if you can confirm this; the 1. and the 2. piston have to be mid-stroke and the slots on the intake and exhaust cams have to be in the middle of the holes in the side of the head. That means the engine is timed correctly? Am aware that there is a special tool kit involved and I won't be adjusting the timing without it. The up side of all this is it will make it easier for me to do the timing belt replacement on my Giulietta MA
Your timing instructions are not complete (as i mentioned earlier) You can have the mid stroke of 1 and 2 before top dead centre or after top dead centre. It is possible, as i said, for the previous owner to have failed to start the engine because he incorrectly timed the engine and then gave up and sold the engine.

The highly regarded Haynes manual fails to mention which of the 2 different piston positions is required. Many people have timed the engine with it 180 degrees incorrect. Number one must be half way down on the down stroke.
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Last edited by judderbar; 4 Weeks Ago at 15:59.
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Re: 1.2 16v to 1.4 16v swap, Help!

Yes that was the one thing bugging me, Haynes just says mid-stroke. If the timing is really rotated 180 degrees could it mean damage to the valves? And could the engine be started by switching the ht leads (1-2, 3-4)?
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #14
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Re: 1.2 16v to 1.4 16v swap, Help!

Quote Originally Posted by noDi View Post
Yes that was the one thing bugging me, Haynes just says mid-stroke. If the timing is really rotated 180 degrees could it mean damage to the valves? And could the engine be started by switching the ht leads (1-2, 3-4)?
The engine is not damaged if 180 degrees incorrect. Changing the ignition leads cannot help the situation.

All you have to do is turn the engine with somebody looking thru the cam lock hole at the front of the car till the flat slot on the camshaft appears. Number one should then be half way thru the down stroke.
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Last edited by judderbar; 4 Weeks Ago at 17:31.
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Re: 1.2 16v to 1.4 16v swap, Help!

Quote Originally Posted by judderbar View Post
The engine is not damaged if 180 degrees incorrect. Changing the ignition leads cannot help the situation.

All you have to do is turn the engine with somebody looking thru the cam lock hole at the front of the car till the flat slot on the camshaft appears. Number one should then be half way thru the down stroke.
Get it, thanks for your time! Tomorrow I'll be spending some quality time with the punto and will post the results...
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