Hello, good people.

Excuse the lengthy post, but I want to jam all the details I have for your perusal, while keeping it as compact as possible. Also, some of my technical terminology is lacking, I'll try to explain as precisely and simply as possible.

I think I'm posting in the correct section, excuse me if I'm not, Fiat hasn't made it overly simple to detect these car models. I believe I have a Punto "Classic" (mk2b is it?) as shown in the following picture, the only difference being I don't have that side protection on the door and the side there and the front grille is a bit different on mine, probably not an original part.

https:// en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_Punto#/media/File:Fiat_Punto_front_20080714.jpg

Model: Punto 1.2, 8V, petrol engine
Year of production: 2008
Number of doors: 3

Some history: I had this vehicle for 3 years now, it has some 71k km. This car is used for daily commute, I do maybe 30km per day, total in 3+ years I have done some 12k km.

Previous owner stated it had one crash, left (driver's) side was quite damaged. From a later more detailed inspection from a third party it was obvious the car wasn't repaired with a great attention to detail. Some of the replacement parts that were used (front lights, the hood, probably the door too and who knows what else) are low quality, there was also some damage to the back door as well, so maybe two separate crashes happened. They cut corners on all sides. I bought it from two guys (ex colleagues) who bought it damaged and repaired it for profit. All in all, we aren't friends anymore.

The main issue: I have starting problems. When I turn the ignition on (but before starting the engine) sometimes I can hear the pump operating, at other times I can't. The front panel comes on normally. If I repeat this operation several times, after a few attempts I will hear the pump, sometimes not even after several tries. Sometimes after turning the ignition off, the front panel will stay on for a solid several seconds.

When I try to start, it most commonly fails to start from the first try. I can hear it revving, the front panel turns off (all the dials go down, the trip counter and the clock reset, background light turns off and the dials keep twitching for a few seconds, if that makes sense) and the car is "dead." When I stop revving and leave the ignition on, after a few seconds the panel comes back on. I have to turn the ignition off, and back on and typically on the second try the engine will start, but the panel will turn off and back on again. Sometimes it will start after I hear the pump, sometimes it won't.

The battery has been replaced about a year ago. This issue has been developing for a while now, basically from the start. Sometimes I can hear (while trying to start, immediately after trying and during the drive) clicking sounds coming from under the hood, presumably some relays are having a party in there.

Sometimes, the car won't start after several attempts, the same procedure all over again. After three or four attempts, I'll lift the hood and unplug the battery for 30 seconds or so. After that, the engine will start, after an attempt or two. In total, I couldn't get it to start some two times, but after coming back to the car later it will start as if nothing had happened. I haven't managed to find any correlation between this issue and the weather. Cold, hot, dark, light, 90% or 60% moisture, all the same.

Another possibly major problem: sometime after starting, the engine starts to produce quite a lot of vibration, I assume one of the cylinders fails to come on (I have some experience with larger engines and how they operate when a cylinder fails or is shut off for diagnostics.) This issue is followed by a yellow "check engine" light and I can "fix" it by pressing the gas pedal for a second or two. After it "evens out" the engine operates normally, the "check engine" light stays on. This issue started only recently and it makes me conclude this is going to get worse sooner rather than later.

Other, possibly related issues I'd consider minor: I've seen the stickies for the turning wheel red light and the faq for the airbag red light. Sometimes, after a difficult start, my servo won't work for 10-15 seconds. I don't know about the "city" i.e. softer servo since I don't use it. But, when the servo goes back to normal, it stays there. This happened maybe a dozen times.

The "key coding" yellow light comes on sometimes, as well. Sometimes, during driving, the front panel will shut down for a split second and the dials will come back again. The engine never turned off on its own, though. Sometimes, the engine temperature dial will "die" during operation and come back on, seemingly completely randomly. Sometimes it won't be on for a few days and then it comes back again.

There were some other issues in the early development of the problem, but I don't want to swamp you. Note that I use the word "sometimes" way too often, but it sadly reflects the state of operation perfectly.

Things I have tried doing: I visited two mechanics (people I somewhat trust, both have some electrical experience) and an electrician (well renowned in my area.) What they jointly did:
- connected to the ECU, changed some settings (turning wheel position needed to be calibrated, it showed odd angles,) no meaningful error messages were found, something about odd canbus errors. This was a few years back, so my memory of it isn't that fresh
- the lock was checked, no apparent issues
- there was some corrosion on the ground connection, it was cleaned
- the battery was replaced a year ago (as mentioned above, by myself) even if it maybe wasn't dead, I wasn't too sure about that, but after failing to start that morning I didn't want to risk it
- circuit breakers were checked and (part of) the wiring as well

All in all, these guys charged me a pittance for all of these operations and therefore I have to conclude nobody was trying to scam me. The electrician figured it was probably down to the cockpit ECU, which was a costly replacement, but he wasn't very optimistic about having this problem ironed out completely at any point. However, I visited this guy about 2 years ago while the issues were less frequently occurring. This week I visited the mechanic because I wanted to be reasonably certain this is not a mechanical issue before proceeding.

The last bit of info which I find worthy of note: after I replaced the battery, some of the lights were still coming on randomly, but the car started OK, for some 6 months. Then I had some problems on the technical examination (I'm not certain how do you guys call that, done yearly when extending the "permit") with front left wheel break being inadequate and my mechanic had to replace the "jaw" (again, unsure of the correct term) and after that the starting problem came back with a vengeance. It may well have been a freak occurrence, of course. He claims these two issue were not related.

Well, I think that's about it. I plan to visit the electrician during the following week. My semi educated opinion on this is that this is some sort of a grounding issue, I think there are some floating currents going on, making the ground higher than 0V and that makes the electronics go crazy. I'll try doing some voltage measurements to see how much does the voltage drop when starting, but with only a year on this battery I doubt it's the culprit.

Thanks for your time, any advice is welcome.

Your problems may all be related.
The symptoms point towards a failing battery, or the current not getting through. The battery is not old, but it is worth checking it, or swapping with a known goodone for diagnosis.
A common issue with these, and other Fiats of the same age, is the main battery earth cable corrodes inside. You've already had the terminals cleaned, which might be a clue.
The main cable, from battery, to gearbox casing and to vehicle body, corrodes inside, and can either break the connection, or create a high resistance. This would give all the symptoms you describe.
If you have jump cables, for starting from another car, connect one from the battery negative to a good contact point on the engine and see if it all works ok. If all works, this shows the main cable is at fault. Replace it.

The engine misfire could be due to the low voltage, but these also can have trouble with ignition leads failing, coils failing, and sometimes the connections at the ECU become loose.
New ignition cables are not expensive, and worthwhile. But get a good brand name, like NGK.
If an ignition coil is suspect, swapping them (remember which plug lead goes where) can move the misfire to another plug, confirming the problem.
Carefully disconnect the ECU. (Usually mounted on the battery holder, or the end of the cylinder head) Gently, very gently, prod each tiny terminal and check if it is secure. If loose, or it is lower than the rest, its connection inside is failing. Search for threads on this, but I think some have had success in taking the ECU apart and resoldering.

Hopefully, all fixable with a little time, and not too much money.

Bill, thanks a lot for your meaningful reply. I didn't consider the cables themselves would corrode, thanks Fiat.

If I took some pictures, would you have the time to point me in the right direction of what you mentioned there? I obviously know where does the battery go, but I can use some help with identifying the other parts you mentioned.

I have made a collage of various shots of the engine area here (3.2MB image)

https:// drive. google. com/open?id=1nkgT-mcbSPybkNIS92JDBbuAJlAlhgft

(pardon me for breaking the posting rules regarding links, even if these are not clickable )

I'll proceed with doing some tests.

OK, so I tried doing two things. Firstly, I measured voltages.

Clamps off battery voltage: 12.5V
Ignition on battery voltage: 12V
Starter revving battery voltage: ~10.5V (I'm not certain how quick to measure is this multimeter I used)
Battery charge voltage: 14V

Then I tried using the starting cables to connect the battery negative to several points on the chassis, but to no avail. Starts on second try on average, front panel turns off each time.

Also, another issue (which may not be an issue at all,) while the engine and ignition are off, one can hear a feint clicking sound coming from below the air filter, so I have to assume the injectors are doing something while the car is off. Are they maybe siphoning fuel back to the reservoir?

90% or 60% moisture

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Where the freaking hell do you live? Vietnam?

The only countries I've been to with 90% humidity (or more) is Singapore, Malaysia, Philippines, Thailand (ofc) and Bangladesh in the Moonsoon season.



This is where you get 90% humidity (or more).

AFAIK you don't even get 90% humidity in the Capo Verde islands in the freaking South Atlantic ocean.

I visited two mechanics (people I somewhat trust, both have some electrical experience) and an electrician

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I'd visit the Authorized Fiat Dealership (if you have one in Croatia) if I were you and ask them to fix your car.

In my experience, the Authorized Fiat Dealership mechanics are the last straw, and they send you to them when no freelancer mechanic can fix your car.

Frankly, I have never heard of a car with so many problems. If I were a mechanic myself, I wouldn't even bother. Sounds like somebody drove your car into the sea then they retrieved it and sold it off.

Compared to your Punto, my 2002 Punto has had absolutely zero issues in 16 years, and I live right next to the freaking sea myself.

Firstly, your link has spaces in it, which need taking out before it will work. After a bit of effort I managed to find the pic. Thanks for the challenge.

12.5v is minimum for a good battery, would prefer to see 12.6-12.75v. However, 10.5v cranking is ok.
Dials disappearing and clock resetting is a low voltage issue. This suggests that the starter takes all it needs, and leaves not enough for the ignition and other stuff.

The cable that needs checking for its entire length is the fatter black wire from the battery to the car body, as you've highlighted. Where it meets the body, below the battery, it has another cable going on from there, that should go to the gearbox, and that needs checking too.

The connector you ask if it is the ECU, is not. The ECU connector is much larger, and held onto the ECU with a large lever. I've had a search, but cannot find a pic. I can't see it in your pics, and am not sure where it is in the Punto. Ziggy122 might be able to help, he's quite hot on Punto issues. (Sorry Ziggy)

LeoAchaicus said:

Where the freaking hell do you live? Vietnam?

The only countries I've been to with 90% humidity (or more) is Singapore, Malaysia, Philippines, Thailand (ofc) and Bangladesh in the Moonsoon season.

AFAIK you don't even get 90% humidity in the Capo Verde islands in the freaking South Atlantic ocean.

I'd visit the Authorized Fiat Dealership (if you have one in Croatia) if I were you and ask them to fix your car.

In my experience, the Authorized Fiat Dealership mechanics are the last straw, and they send you to them when no freelancer mechanic can fix your car.

Frankly, I have never heard of a car with so many problems. If I were a mechanic myself, I wouldn't even bother. Sounds like somebody drove your car into the sea then they retrieved it and sold it off.

Compared to your Punto, my 2002 Punto has had absolutely zero issues in 16 years, and I live right next to the freaking sea myself.

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Not helpful!

portland_bill said:

Not helpful!

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On the contrary, my post is very helpful and will save the OP lots of time if he just take his car to a Fiat Authorized Dealership like I advised.

There are trained professionals in there, certified by FIAT, who will certainly fix his car.

LeoAchaicus said:

On the contrary, my post is very helpful and will save the OP lots of time if he just take his car to a Fiat Authorized Dealership like I advised.

There are trained professionals in there, certified by FIAT, who will certainly fix his car.

Click to expand...

On the contrary, Fiat dealer may well 'fix it' but probably at enormous cost, and probably by replacing things that do not need replacing, just to 'fix it'.
(been there, done that, paid for it as well!!) Quoted over £300 to 'fix it' with 'new' components, only for an 'cheap mechanic to 'find' a broken wire, repaired costing just £30 including his time!!
Fiat dealer may well 'fix it' but before diving in 'blind' at least do some basic checks before parting with 'big money' for a repair that may only be small change!! (dealers are not going to do it 'cheaply, now, are they??)

Leo, I may have overstated my relative humidity conditions, my indoor hygrometer shows 80% at times and it gets really stuffy. Living 50 meters from the Adriatic, it can get seriously humid in these parts, especially when warm winds from the sea hit the coast, it gets so humid the cars are soaking wet in the morning and we can get quite a dense fog at times. Maybe it's not 90%, but closer to 80%. Either way, quite stuffy.

Regarding the "authorized" dealerships, they are very expensive in my area. One large business holds monopoly and they are jacking prices sky high. They'd probably charge me at least 50% of what I payed for the vehicle itself, making the repair a Pyhrric victory.

Bill, my link has spaces in there because new users, those with less than 5 posts, may not post links. So I had to "hack" it, sorry for the inconvenience.

Regarding the battery, I figured as much. The second test I did, I got my friend to borrow me some battery juice. When we hooked up the cars together I couldn't get to start even after a few tries, but my front panel didn't turn off on neither of those attempts. I'm not certain what to make of that. I'm not certain on what charge level was his battery, it's a bit older, but it should have started really under such conditions, no problems, right?

Another thing I tried doing was using my jump start cable to "bridge" the cable in question, the one that goes from the battery negative to the chassis. That didn't change much, either, but considering various surface resistances it was to be expected. Also, you can't see this in the picture, but the battery negative is connected to the chassis over a metal plate which is welded to the rest of the car a bit shabbily. It appears the left side of the car, having sustained damage, probably was quite bent and those guys probably had quite a lot of welding to do. It's welded over three spots and I guess the resistance can't be an issue, but I just figured it may be worth mentioning.

I'll check tomorrow for other ECU connector candidates, could it be in the cockpit? What do you make of those clicking sounds coming from under the air filter? Where should the starter be located? I dare only assume its negative is connected to the chassis as well, making that cable a prime candidate for inspection.

Thanks again.

Ah, the clicking. Sorry, forgot on my last post.
When everything is off, I would not expect anything to be making any noises, unless the idle control valve resets after a short time. Ideally, take the air filter off, and try to determine exactly what is clicking, but I doubt this is relevant to the problems.

I would still expect to find the ignition ECU under the bonnet.

A couple of other things I've just thought of.
The scuttle, under the windscreen, can fill with water if the drains are blocked by leaves or other debris. When it drains, it can swamp the alternator, and cause electrical problems. Need to check the alternator is dry. Sorry, difficult with the aircon pump above it.
Also, if it fills too high, the water can spill into the passenger compartment. So check the floors. Get under the dash and check the edges of the carpet, as water can drain behind the carpet, and with the plastic backing, the carpet will not feel wet. Do you get condensation inside? I've seen reports of such water affecting the body ECU under the dash.
You have to get you head up under the dash.

I had a rather demanding day today, so I didn't have the time to tend to my lame vehicle. I'll reread everything tomorrow and provide more pictures and information.

The main cable, from battery, to gearbox casing and to vehicle body, corrodes inside, and can either break the connection, or create a high resistance.

I tried measuring this resistance, but it's too low for my multimeter. I also tried to measure the voltage drop on the cable going from the battery negative to the chassis, it showed something lower than 0.1V. My multimeter can measure in mV range, so I trust that measurement.

Close to that point I've shown you before where said cable is connected to the chassis, there is another ground connection where two thinner cables are grounded. That connection looks far worse, it is connected to a place where some welding may have been done and it was painted over so it doesn't look right.

If you have jump cables, for starting from another car, connect one from the battery negative to a good contact point on the engine and see if it all works ok.

I did this the day before yesterday, but I'm not that sure I had a good connection. Those jump cables seem to not form the greatest surface connection so I'm not exactly sure that worked as intended. When taking into account surface resistance, that wasn't a very dependable result.

New ignition cables are not expensive, and worthwhile.

Which cables are ignition cables? Those connected to the plugs?

Carefully disconnect the ECU.

I have located the connector you speak of. These images show the connector in the cockpit and those under the hood. I unplugged all of them and only inspected them visually. I haven't prodded them for the time being, the contacts that are used look OK. I don't understand why waste such a large connector for 7 used pins.

https://imgur.com/a/OKk4y

The scuttle, under the windscreen, can fill with water if the drains are blocked by leaves or other debris.

The scuttle seems to quite large to overflow. We did have some heavy rains during this season, but still. There are two drain openings in it (second image,) they were moderately plugged, I cleaned both. The alternator (third image) looks bone dry and the charge voltage is at 14V. There are some intakes (first image) for something above the scuttle, had it been full of water that's where it would have gone probably. Is there some pipe missing on those drains? As they are fitted now, it looks like the water drains a bit too freely in the engine area.

https://imgur.com/a/95wKB

Also, if it fills too high, the water can spill into the passenger compartment.

I do get some condensation in the car. I tried checking below the carpet, it seemed dry, but I should probably check again after we get some rain.

You have to get you head up under the dash.

This is going to prove rather impossible, because my head won't fit in there I barely managed to take a picture, which doesn't look like much. In the top left you can see the back side of that panel in the cockpit I showed previously. Nothing there looks/feels wet or moist to me, I gave it a good groping.

https://imgur.com/a/gSqdK


What I'd like to proceed with is to replace that cable going from the battery to the chassis and the cable from the chassis going to the gearbox. I'll have to see tomorrow what I can purchase to be compatible with my situation, the only issue I have with this is that the connection to the gear box is quite unapproachable. Even from below it's going to be a bitch to loosen and tighten back again.

Today I tried turning on the ignition about a dozen times, took about half a dozen cranks for the engine to start. For most of those attempts I couldn't hear the pump operating. Only after turning the ignition on and off for about 5-6 times in a row (ignition on, ignition off, remove the key, insert the key) did I hear the pump and after cranking the starter the engine started fine, even the front panel didn't turn off. Turning on the ignition and the pump does not involve the starter so I don't understand why does the pump operate so intermittently. It must be a crappy connection somewhere.

Would this be the car you have (Zavasta 10):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_Punto#/media/File:Zastava_10_1.jpg

Made under licence in Serbia by Zastava from 2005, then Fiat owned from 2009 onwards under Punto Classic name.

I have seen that, but as far as I can tell I have a Fiat Punto, not a Punto rebranded as a Zastava 10. It has Fiat stamped all over the place, so I'm assuming this one wasn't made in Kragujevac.

The best I can tell, this model was firstly made by Fiat (2003-2010), then Kragujevac (2005-2008), then Fiat again after acquiring the plant in Kragujevac (2009-2011).

The scuttle drains you've found, and cleared. Not sure if you've got the longer one above the alternator, as I've not got a Punto to check. But keep them clear. You said they were partly blocked. That is enough to allow the scuttle to fill and overspill into the interior, don't be fooled by the size of the cavity.

The connector you've found under the dash, that only uses a few pins, is the body computer, not the ignition ECU. The ignition ECU will almost certainly be in the engine compartment somewhere. I did hope someone else would tell us exactly where, as I've not seen it in your pics.

Thinking of pics, please try to put any future pics in the posts, not as links. The links take a long time to load, and can break later.

Replacing the battery cables is a good first step.

The ignition leads are the HT leads to the plugs. These deteriorate over time.

Display going out and clock resetting is a low voltage issue. Still comes down to connections somewhere. Could be inside if water has got in.
Another thought, ignition switch could be worn, so not always making proper contact. Is it loose? Does wriggling the key change anything. That might account for the pump not always operating. Pump should run for a few seconds when key first turned on, to build pressure, then it pumps again while cranking, and will continue once started if it gets a signal from the engine to say it is running. Pump relay is in the main fusebox near the battery. Check the whole fusebox for water ingress too.

The standout issue here is the pump not running every time the ignition is on.

With a long length of wire and a voltmeter it is extremely simple to isolate the pump problem.

1. The pump earth should always be connected and capable of handling many amps.

2. The pump positive can easily be traced to the engine compartment fusebox, via the relay, to the fuse and back to the battery.

These connections should be totally solid with zero problems before anything else is done.

Bill, the scuttle drains are two short ones, not one runs above the alternator. They are both about 12cm in length and go straight down with a slight "narrowness" on the end, as to hold dirt in.. I'll make sure to clean these more regularly. Currently, I can't find any traces of water or moisture where there shouldn't be any, anywhere under the hood or in the cockpit ECU compartment.

I thought I was doing you a favor by not including large images inline. Usually it is customary, at least in my neck of the web, to link to images as to not cause too high traffic load.

I'll refer back to images I posted before. This box is under the hood.





The two bottom left wires (red+white) go to the ventilator and one of these large connectors must go to the body ECU.

I didn't get to replace the battery cables today since work got the best of me.

What are HT leads?

The ignition lock does seem a bit loose, but it's hard for me to judge to what extent. My mechanic checked it and he said everything seemed fine with it. I know for a fact that, if I turn the ignition on and then wiggle the key a bit, I can't crank the engine, that is the key locks up in ignition position and I have to turn the ignition off, then back on and without wiggling the key I may proceed to start the engine. In fact, this is the first facet of this issue I was introduced with, not long after purchasing this vehicle. Later came the other problems, one by one. I told this tidbit to all of the guys working on the car previously, but none of them were particularly interested, even if the issue is very repeatable.

To both Bill and judderbar, I have finally payed some attention to this detail and realized that during normal operation, with my lights turned off and my handbrake lowered, the only three lights turned on on the dashboard are/should be "check engine," "check oil" and "battery charge," prior to cranking the engine that is. This morning it came to pass I finally noticed the fourth light, "key coding" was turned on and the pump sound was not to be heard. I removed the key and inserted it "more carefully" and turned the ignition on, then I could hear the pump and the "key coding" light turned off. After that point I couldn't get my car to fail starting again. On every attempt, the pump turns on, the "key coding" light turns off and the engine starts without the dashboard turning off.

Could possibly the fact I reconnected all of those connectors yesterday have changed something? Tomorrow I'll try using the spare key, even though both of these keys have behaved the same in the past so I don't think any single key is the problem, even though I guess both of them could be.

judderbar, could you elaborate a bit more? Am I supposed to locate the pump, connect a wire to its ground and then measure the voltage between the other end of this wire and the pump relay as I turn the ignition on?

I should also mention that in the past, the fact I could hear the pump, didn't always guarantee the engine would start. Also, on several occasions, I couldn't get the pump to operate, not even after half a dozen retries. Usually, after that I would try to start the engine, which would fail, but on the next attempt the pump would come back on and the engine would start.

mkey said:

I'll refer back to images I posted before. This box is under the hood.

The two bottom left wires (red+white) go to the ventilator and one of these large connectors must go to the body ECU.

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That box looks like just the main fuse and relay block, no ECU in there.
Sorry, I can't help you find the ignition ECU, I do not have a similar vehicle. Still hoping someone with one will read this and contribute.

mkey said:

What are HT leads?

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This is the term used for the High Tension leads, from ignition coil to spark plug. Or plug leads.

mkey said:

The ignition lock .... I know for a fact that, if I turn the ignition on and then wiggle the key a bit, I can't crank the engine, that is the key locks up in ignition position and I have to turn the ignition off, then back on [\quote]
That is normal. To prevent the starter being operated with the engine running, once the key has been turned towards the 'start' position, it will not go there again until turned off. If you turn it just a bit too far initially, it may engage this function and prevent turning to start.

mkey said:

This morning it came to pass I finally noticed the fourth light, "key coding" was turned on and the pump sound was not to be heard. I removed the key and inserted it "more carefully" and turned the ignition on, then I could hear the pump and the "key coding" light turned off. After that point I couldn't get my car to fail starting again. On every attempt, the pump turns on, the "key coding" light turns off and the engine starts without the dashboard turning off.

Could possibly the fact I reconnected all of those connectors yesterday have changed something? Tomorrow I'll try using the spare key, even though both of these keys have behaved the same in the past so I don't think any single key is the problem, even though I guess both of them could be.

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Reconnecting can clean contacts and cure all sorts of issues.
There is an 'aerial' around the ignition lock that reads the chip in the key. These seldom fail, but getting inside the cowling and checking its connector might be a good idea.
When you first turn the key, don't rush. As the dash lights up, the key is read, if you turn it to 'start' too soon, it may refuse to start as it had not yet read the key.
Is the key damaged in any way? The chip inside is in a glass phial, and can be fragile if repeatedly dropped.
Try the spare key. Should be fine. But if problem affects both keys, aerial, connections or ECU may be at fault. ECU is unlikely. This is probably just dirty connections, requiring lots of time finding them and disconnecting and reconnecting.
Pump not running or code light lit would not usually go with dash going off and clock resetting. Still for me, to get both at once suggests poor contacts inside the switch.

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