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Old 1 Week Ago   #16
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Re: Fiat Punto 1.2 16V mk2b (I guess) several issues

I have seen that, but as far as I can tell I have a Fiat Punto, not a Punto rebranded as a Zastava 10. It has Fiat stamped all over the place, so I'm assuming this one wasn't made in Kragujevac.

The best I can tell, this model was firstly made by Fiat (2003-2010), then Kragujevac (2005-2008), then Fiat again after acquiring the plant in Kragujevac (2009-2011).
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Last edited by mkey; 1 Week Ago at 21:41.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #17
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Re: Fiat Punto 1.2 16V mk2b (I guess) several issues

The scuttle drains you've found, and cleared. Not sure if you've got the longer one above the alternator, as I've not got a Punto to check. But keep them clear. You said they were partly blocked. That is enough to allow the scuttle to fill and overspill into the interior, don't be fooled by the size of the cavity.

The connector you've found under the dash, that only uses a few pins, is the body computer, not the ignition ECU. The ignition ECU will almost certainly be in the engine compartment somewhere. I did hope someone else would tell us exactly where, as I've not seen it in your pics.

Thinking of pics, please try to put any future pics in the posts, not as links. The links take a long time to load, and can break later.

Replacing the battery cables is a good first step.

The ignition leads are the HT leads to the plugs. These deteriorate over time.

Display going out and clock resetting is a low voltage issue. Still comes down to connections somewhere. Could be inside if water has got in.
Another thought, ignition switch could be worn, so not always making proper contact. Is it loose? Does wriggling the key change anything. That might account for the pump not always operating. Pump should run for a few seconds when key first turned on, to build pressure, then it pumps again while cranking, and will continue once started if it gets a signal from the engine to say it is running. Pump relay is in the main fusebox near the battery. Check the whole fusebox for water ingress too.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #18
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Re: Fiat Punto 1.2 16V mk2b (I guess) several issues

The standout issue here is the pump not running every time the ignition is on.

With a long length of wire and a voltmeter it is extremely simple to isolate the pump problem.

1. The pump earth should always be connected and capable of handling many amps.

2. The pump positive can easily be traced to the engine compartment fusebox, via the relay, to the fuse and back to the battery.

These connections should be totally solid with zero problems before anything else is done.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #19
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Re: Fiat Punto 1.2 16V mk2b (I guess) several issues

Bill, the scuttle drains are two short ones, not one runs above the alternator. They are both about 12cm in length and go straight down with a slight "narrowness" on the end, as to hold dirt in.. I'll make sure to clean these more regularly. Currently, I can't find any traces of water or moisture where there shouldn't be any, anywhere under the hood or in the cockpit ECU compartment.

I thought I was doing you a favor by not including large images inline. Usually it is customary, at least in my neck of the web, to link to images as to not cause too high traffic load.

I'll refer back to images I posted before. This box is under the hood.





The two bottom left wires (red+white) go to the ventilator and one of these large connectors must go to the body ECU.

I didn't get to replace the battery cables today since work got the best of me.

What are HT leads?

The ignition lock does seem a bit loose, but it's hard for me to judge to what extent. My mechanic checked it and he said everything seemed fine with it. I know for a fact that, if I turn the ignition on and then wiggle the key a bit, I can't crank the engine, that is the key locks up in ignition position and I have to turn the ignition off, then back on and without wiggling the key I may proceed to start the engine. In fact, this is the first facet of this issue I was introduced with, not long after purchasing this vehicle. Later came the other problems, one by one. I told this tidbit to all of the guys working on the car previously, but none of them were particularly interested, even if the issue is very repeatable.

To both Bill and judderbar, I have finally payed some attention to this detail and realized that during normal operation, with my lights turned off and my handbrake lowered, the only three lights turned on on the dashboard are/should be "check engine," "check oil" and "battery charge," prior to cranking the engine that is. This morning it came to pass I finally noticed the fourth light, "key coding" was turned on and the pump sound was not to be heard. I removed the key and inserted it "more carefully" and turned the ignition on, then I could hear the pump and the "key coding" light turned off. After that point I couldn't get my car to fail starting again. On every attempt, the pump turns on, the "key coding" light turns off and the engine starts without the dashboard turning off.

Could possibly the fact I reconnected all of those connectors yesterday have changed something? Tomorrow I'll try using the spare key, even though both of these keys have behaved the same in the past so I don't think any single key is the problem, even though I guess both of them could be.

judderbar, could you elaborate a bit more? Am I supposed to locate the pump, connect a wire to its ground and then measure the voltage between the other end of this wire and the pump relay as I turn the ignition on?

I should also mention that in the past, the fact I could hear the pump, didn't always guarantee the engine would start. Also, on several occasions, I couldn't get the pump to operate, not even after half a dozen retries. Usually, after that I would try to start the engine, which would fail, but on the next attempt the pump would come back on and the engine would start.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #20
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Re: Fiat Punto 1.2 16V mk2b (I guess) several issues

Quote Originally Posted by mkey View Post
I'll refer back to images I posted before. This box is under the hood.





The two bottom left wires (red+white) go to the ventilator and one of these large connectors must go to the body ECU.
That box looks like just the main fuse and relay block, no ECU in there.
Sorry, I can't help you find the ignition ECU, I do not have a similar vehicle. Still hoping someone with one will read this and contribute.

Quote Originally Posted by mkey View Post
What are HT leads?
This is the term used for the High Tension leads, from ignition coil to spark plug. Or plug leads.
[quote=mkey;4331796]
The ignition lock .... I know for a fact that, if I turn the ignition on and then wiggle the key a bit, I can't crank the engine, that is the key locks up in ignition position and I have to turn the ignition off, then back on [\quote]
That is normal. To prevent the starter being operated with the engine running, once the key has been turned towards the 'start' position, it will not go there again until turned off. If you turn it just a bit too far initially, it may engage this function and prevent turning to start.

Quote Originally Posted by mkey View Post
This morning it came to pass I finally noticed the fourth light, "key coding" was turned on and the pump sound was not to be heard. I removed the key and inserted it "more carefully" and turned the ignition on, then I could hear the pump and the "key coding" light turned off. After that point I couldn't get my car to fail starting again. On every attempt, the pump turns on, the "key coding" light turns off and the engine starts without the dashboard turning off.

Could possibly the fact I reconnected all of those connectors yesterday have changed something? Tomorrow I'll try using the spare key, even though both of these keys have behaved the same in the past so I don't think any single key is the problem, even though I guess both of them could be.
Reconnecting can clean contacts and cure all sorts of issues.
There is an 'aerial' around the ignition lock that reads the chip in the key. These seldom fail, but getting inside the cowling and checking its connector might be a good idea.
When you first turn the key, don't rush. As the dash lights up, the key is read, if you turn it to 'start' too soon, it may refuse to start as it had not yet read the key.
Is the key damaged in any way? The chip inside is in a glass phial, and can be fragile if repeatedly dropped.
Try the spare key. Should be fine. But if problem affects both keys, aerial, connections or ECU may be at fault. ECU is unlikely. This is probably just dirty connections, requiring lots of time finding them and disconnecting and reconnecting.
Pump not running or code light lit would not usually go with dash going off and clock resetting. Still for me, to get both at once suggests poor contacts inside the switch.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #21
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Re: Fiat Punto 1.2 16V mk2b (I guess) several issues

I have a 2004 1.2 16V punto.

I have an old key without the transponder which turns on the ignition and cranks the engine with the key code light on. The fuel pump runs normally with this key even when the key code light is on.

So where are you now with this problem? Is it now fixed after reconnecting various connections?

It sounds like you had multiple problems caused by bad wiring somewhere and the most obvious cause of multiple problems is bad earths where nearly all major earths go back to a playing card shaped box just in front of and under the battery.

The engine ECU is on top of the air inlet it has two big plugs and thick wiring. The Earth on one of the 4 screws for the ECU needs to be in good condition.

The pump is under the rear seat. The fuel pump relay is the red relay nearest the wing in the engine fuse box. If you remove the relay and bridge the large connections in the fuse box which are normally under the relay the pump should run. There is a continuous positive wire from the relay connections to the fuel pump. The earth for the pump goes via an impact switch just inside the carpet in the passenger area under the glove box. So if you turn on the car and the pump does not run you can test these connections to isolate the problem. An ECU/ECU Earth problem or wiring connection that impacts the ECU will be isolated if the pump runs with the relay bridged but it does not run for a few seconds when you first turn on the ignition.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #22
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Re: Fiat Punto 1.2 16V mk2b (I guess) several issues

Bill, I don't see anything else in there having a large connector and I think I managed to account for most of the wiring.

There is a big wad of wires coming from the cockpit. It splits three ways; part of the wires goes toward the fuse box, part goes toward headlights and the last part is connected to the servo pump, or whatever that is. One of those large connectors is coming from the cockpit, the other goes toward the engine.

I have lifted the air filter from the engine top and is something I'd consider to be plugs.

Thanks for clearing up that "wiggle in the lock" issue.

There are some screws below the turning wheel, I can try taking that apart and see what I can see. Neither key I'd consider damaged, I did drop my key a few times (once on the parking lot, it went right in the middle below the car, once just now when I was returning to my apartment lol) but it's covered in quite elastic rubber so I'd wager it's somewhat shock proof.

Still for me, to get both at once suggests poor contacts inside the switch.

Which switch are we talking about?

judderbar, near the battery I have two earths, but I can't see the playing card shaped box. On previous images you can see this "main" earth, to which the negative of the battery and the gearbox (as far as I understand) are connected. This connection looks solid to me. Close to that spot, there is another grounding connection where thinner cables are connected. This connection does not look that solid and it appears to be connected to an area which has been painted over. To the right is this ground of questionable quality. I'd love getting some advice on how to improve that.

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The engine ECU is on top of the air inlet it has two big plugs and thick wiring. The Earth on one of the 4 screws for the ECU needs to be in good condition.

We're probably not thinking about the same thing. I have an air filter fitted on the top of the engine, but where is the air inlet supposed to be? The air filter has a part that is missing, looks like a plastic pipe should be fitted there but it must have been discarded when the car was repaired initially.

The pump is under the rear seat. The fuel pump relay is the red relay nearest the wing in the engine fuse box. If you remove the relay and bridge the large connections in the fuse box which are normally under the relay the pump should run. There is a continuous positive wire from the relay connections to the fuel pump. The earth for the pump goes via an impact switch just inside the carpet in the passenger area under the glove box. So if you turn on the car and the pump does not run you can test these connections to isolate the problem. An ECU/ECU Earth problem or wiring connection that impacts the ECU will be isolated if the pump runs with the relay bridged but it does not run for a few seconds when you first turn on the ignition.

I have lifted the back seat and found a plastic cover right in the middle and there's a rubberized opening through which a number of wires go somewhere under the carpet. I'd like some more explanations before following these steps you have layed out.

What does "nearest the wing" mean? What's an impact switch?

Current situation

Things worked great till this afternoon. After lunch I went down to the car to fiddle some more with it and, well, we're back to square one. I tried using both keys, no difference between them. I tried turning ignition on about 2 dozen times, turned on the engine two times. Mostly the same scenario, "key coding" light on, pump remains silent.

I tried cranking just a few times and the engine didn't start under pump off/"key coding" on conditions. I tried using both keys I have; inserted them slowly, quickly, turned them around and whatnot, no change.

On a few occasions I could hear the pump operate for just a second, shorter than usual, the "key lamp" was left on and the engine would not start.

After the engine did start, I left it running for a few minutes. Sometime during the operation the "check engine" and "key coding" lights turned on, however I did fiddle a bit around with the wiring while the engine was running. Upon turning it off and turning the ignition on some more, I managed to get the pump to function and no "key coding" light about 5-6 times in a row. After that I was back to pump off, light on.

Last note, the lights I usually get are "battery charge," "check engine," "check oil" and "key coding." During these last tests, however, I'd mostly just get "battery charge" and "key coding" while the other two would turn off while I kept the ignition off.

Once again, thank you both, I really appreciate your dedication to this crap.
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Old 6 Days Ago   #23
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Re: Fiat Punto 1.2 16V mk2b (I guess) several issues

Αfter two (2) different professional mechanics and one (1) professional electrician have worked on your car and have failed to fix it, thinking that you will fix the car by taking advice from random people on the internet does not make any sense.

I wish you luck in fixing your car on your own but I don't think it's gonna happen anytime soon.
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Re: Fiat Punto 1.2 16V mk2b (I guess) several issues

Don't put both keys on same key ring , it will cause immobilizer to not always switch off.
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Re: Fiat Punto 1.2 16V mk2b (I guess) several issues

Quote Originally Posted by mkey View Post
Bill, I don't see anything else in there having a large connector and I think I managed to account for most of the wiring.

There is a big wad of wires coming from the cockpit. It splits three ways; part of the wires goes toward the fuse box, part goes toward headlights and the last part is connected to the servo pump, or whatever that is. One of those large connectors is coming from the cockpit, the other goes toward the engine.

I have lifted the air filter from the engine top and is something I'd consider to be plugs.

Thanks for clearing up that "wiggle in the lock" issue.

There are some screws below the turning wheel, I can try taking that apart and see what I can see. Neither key I'd consider damaged, I did drop my key a few times (once on the parking lot, it went right in the middle below the car, once just now when I was returning to my apartment lol) but it's covered in quite elastic rubber so I'd wager it's somewhat shock proof.

Still for me, to get both at once suggests poor contacts inside the switch.

Which switch are we talking about?

judderbar, near the battery I have two earths, but I can't see the playing card shaped box. On previous images you can see this "main" earth, to which the negative of the battery and the gearbox (as far as I understand) are connected. This connection looks solid to me. Close to that spot, there is another grounding connection where thinner cables are connected. This connection does not look that solid and it appears to be connected to an area which has been painted over. To the right is this ground of questionable quality. I'd love getting some advice on how to improve that.

Attachment 189984

Attachment 189985

The engine ECU is on top of the air inlet it has two big plugs and thick wiring. The Earth on one of the 4 screws for the ECU needs to be in good condition.

We're probably not thinking about the same thing. I have an air filter fitted on the top of the engine, but where is the air inlet supposed to be? The air filter has a part that is missing, looks like a plastic pipe should be fitted there but it must have been discarded when the car was repaired initially.

The pump is under the rear seat. The fuel pump relay is the red relay nearest the wing in the engine fuse box. If you remove the relay and bridge the large connections in the fuse box which are normally under the relay the pump should run. There is a continuous positive wire from the relay connections to the fuel pump. The earth for the pump goes via an impact switch just inside the carpet in the passenger area under the glove box. So if you turn on the car and the pump does not run you can test these connections to isolate the problem. An ECU/ECU Earth problem or wiring connection that impacts the ECU will be isolated if the pump runs with the relay bridged but it does not run for a few seconds when you first turn on the ignition.

I have lifted the back seat and found a plastic cover right in the middle and there's a rubberized opening through which a number of wires go somewhere under the carpet. I'd like some more explanations before following these steps you have layed out.

What does "nearest the wing" mean? What's an impact switch?

Current situation

Things worked great till this afternoon. After lunch I went down to the car to fiddle some more with it and, well, we're back to square one. I tried using both keys, no difference between them. I tried turning ignition on about 2 dozen times, turned on the engine two times. Mostly the same scenario, "key coding" light on, pump remains silent.

I tried cranking just a few times and the engine didn't start under pump off/"key coding" on conditions. I tried using both keys I have; inserted them slowly, quickly, turned them around and whatnot, no change.

On a few occasions I could hear the pump operate for just a second, shorter than usual, the "key lamp" was left on and the engine would not start.

After the engine did start, I left it running for a few minutes. Sometime during the operation the "check engine" and "key coding" lights turned on, however I did fiddle a bit around with the wiring while the engine was running. Upon turning it off and turning the ignition on some more, I managed to get the pump to function and no "key coding" light about 5-6 times in a row. After that I was back to pump off, light on.

Last note, the lights I usually get are "battery charge," "check engine," "check oil" and "key coding." During these last tests, however, I'd mostly just get "battery charge" and "key coding" while the other two would turn off while I kept the ignition off.

Once again, thank you both, I really appreciate your dedication to this crap.
in your second picture there is a bundle of small black wires. Without looking at my car I am guessing these are the earth wires connected to that 'playing card' shaped block. I can check this tomorrow.

If you crash the car the impact switch turns off the petrol pump.

The left wing is the metal thing that goes over the wheel between the door and bumper. So the red relay nearest that wing is the petrol pump relay.

As for testing the pump, if you have no idea what you are doing it is going to be a bit difficult to do it. Your problem seems to be the earth wires at the front of the car. Be systematic. If you turn on the ignition and you get no petrol pump sound then pull out the red relay nearest to the left of the car when in the drivers seat and bridge the large contacts. If the pump runs then it sounds like wiring to the engine ECU is at fault.

The engine ECU is not hard to find. Follow the path of the air and you will find in one location there is a metal thing with two electrical plugs and thick bundles of wires. It is to the right of the air intake manifold .
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Re: Fiat Punto 1.2 16V mk2b (I guess) several issues

Quote Originally Posted by jackwhoo View Post
Don't put both keys on same key ring , it will cause immobilizer to not always switch off.
They are always kept separately.
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Re: Fiat Punto 1.2 16V mk2b (I guess) several issues

Quote Originally Posted by judderbar View Post
in your second picture there is a bundle of small black wires. Without looking at my car I am guessing these are the earth wires connected to that 'playing card' shaped block. I can check this tomorrow.
I don't have a block, that bit of metal plate seems to have been welded on and painted, that part of the car supposedly suffered the most in the crash. Please, do check, I can use more information.

Quote Originally Posted by judderbar View Post
If you crash the car the impact switch turns off the petrol pump.
I figured that one out later. I haven't managed to find it near the glove compartment box, though. I can't see anything in that area, there is something below the console on the co-driver side, there's a moderately exposed connector, you could kick it with your foot easily if you were so disposed.

Quote Originally Posted by judderbar View Post
The left wing is the metal thing that goes over the wheel between the door and bumper. So the red relay nearest that wing is the petrol pump relay.

As for testing the pump, if you have no idea what you are doing it is going to be a bit difficult to do it. Your problem seems to be the earth wires at the front of the car. Be systematic. If you turn on the ignition and you get no petrol pump sound then pull out the red relay nearest to the left of the car when in the drivers seat and bridge the large contacts. If the pump runs then it sounds like wiring to the engine ECU is at fault.
I fiddled around the pump today.

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Although the top of the pump is quite dusty, the connector is completely clean on the inside. The fatter yellow/purple wire is going from the pump to the cockpit fuse box, I checked that connection with my multimeter. I think the thinner blue wire is on the other connector, however I couldn't get into that tight pin to check. I'm assuming the other fatter purple cable is grounded somewhere to the chassis, but I don't know where.

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Are you saying the top left red relay is turning on the pump? I didn't want to fiddle with this on my own since I didn't know which relay does what exactly.

Quote Originally Posted by judderbar View Post
The engine ECU is not hard to find. Follow the path of the air and you will find in one location there is a metal thing with two electrical plugs and thick bundles of wires. It is to the right of the air intake manifold .
OK, I'll check again. Are you quite certain it's not in the fuse box? On the fuse box cover it says "centralina" which is Italian for "ECU". Even if it says so only in Italian lol English translation does not mention it.


Other things I did today. I tried to check the ground in the engine area on various points by measuring voltage between the positive side of the battery and various points which all should be grounded. While the alternator was charging, I measured 13.99V on any point I touched with my lead. It figures that if the ground was bad somewhere, a voltage differential should have been visible somewhere, but it wasn't.

The engine ignition acted more erratically today, the pump would barely operate and the lights selection on the dashboard varied from "check engine+check oil+battery charge+key coding" to only "battery charge" being on. I tried starting the engine a few times, it would not. However, without lingering with the key in the ignition position and proceeding directly to start the engine, it started with no problems two times in a row. From this I jump to a conclusion that this may be a racing condition of sort, which by definition has a random outcome.

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I also tried checking the aerial, which I assume is what I pointed out below the lock, but I doubt that connector is loose since I couldn't even unplug it. Is there maybe a way to disable the whole "aerial+transponder" thing and make the ECU think everything is OK with the key at all times? I ought to find an experienced car booster lol
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Re: Fiat Punto 1.2 16V mk2b (I guess) several issues

Quote Originally Posted by mkey View Post
I don't have a block, that bit of metal plate seems to have been welded on and painted, that part of the car supposedly suffered the most in the crash. Please, do check, I can use more information.



I figured that one out later. I haven't managed to find it near the glove compartment box, though. I can't see anything in that area, there is something below the console on the co-driver side, there's a moderately exposed connector, you could kick it with your foot easily if you were so disposed.



I fiddled around the pump today.

Attachment 189998

Attachment 189997

Although the top of the pump is quite dusty, the connector is completely clean on the inside. The fatter yellow/purple wire is going from the pump to the cockpit fuse box, I checked that connection with my multimeter. I think the thinner blue wire is on the other connector, however I couldn't get into that tight pin to check. I'm assuming the other fatter purple cable is grounded somewhere to the chassis, but I don't know where.

Attachment 190000

Are you saying the top left red relay is turning on the pump? I didn't want to fiddle with this on my own since I didn't know which relay does what exactly.



OK, I'll check again. Are you quite certain it's not in the fuse box? On the fuse box cover it says "centralina" which is Italian for "ECU". Even if it says so only in Italian lol English translation does not mention it.


Other things I did today. I tried to check the ground in the engine area on various points by measuring voltage between the positive side of the battery and various points which all should be grounded. While the alternator was charging, I measured 13.99V on any point I touched with my lead. It figures that if the ground was bad somewhere, a voltage differential should have been visible somewhere, but it wasn't.

The engine ignition acted more erratically today, the pump would barely operate and the lights selection on the dashboard varied from "check engine+check oil+battery charge+key coding" to only "battery charge" being on. I tried starting the engine a few times, it would not. However, without lingering with the key in the ignition position and proceeding directly to start the engine, it started with no problems two times in a row. From this I jump to a conclusion that this may be a racing condition of sort, which by definition has a random outcome.

Attachment 189999

I also tried checking the aerial, which I assume is what I pointed out below the lock, but I doubt that connector is loose since I couldn't even unplug it. Is there maybe a way to disable the whole "aerial+transponder" thing and make the ECU think everything is OK with the key at all times? I ought to find an experienced car booster lol
You need to focus on one thing at a time.

1. The first thing to notice is you have many problems where many problems are likely to be caused by one problem related to a bad earth.

2. The pump should always operate with or without the ignition on if you bridge the large contacts of the relay I have my finger on. If that does not happen it is quite simple to investigate why it does not run every single time.

3. Given the crash damage it seems possible there is a problem with the multi earth box I have put my finger on next to the lights. The wiring is possibly perfectly fine and it just needs the single earth of the earthing box connected to the metal of the car via the bolt to be in working order

4. I have my finger on the earth of the engine ECU which has the two plugs and thick bundles of wiring. That earth needs to be in good condition.
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Last edited by judderbar; 4 Days Ago at 12:08.
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Re: Fiat Punto 1.2 16V mk2b (I guess) several issues

Quote Originally Posted by judderbar View Post
You need to focus on one thing at a time.
I agree 100%.

1. I certainly hope so.

2. I'll give that a try now. I just didn't want to do it before because I wasn't sure which relay did what.

3. I don't have that earth box. As I have shown with a picture before, it's just a bolt and two bundles of wires connected together. Maybe this car model doesn't have such earth box or it was removed during the "repair."

4. I can definitively not see anything like that under the hood of my vehicle.

I'll take some more pictures and get to you in a few minutes.
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Re: Fiat Punto 1.2 16V mk2b (I guess) several issues

OK, I found the ECU, it's behind the air intake, toward the cockpit. I'm not sure what I'm supposed to check there. I removed one of the connectors, it looks clean and really solid. I'm not certain where's the ground connection on the ECU, but I guess it's the whole surface which is tightened down with a number of screws. It's a really inaccessible location.

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I removed that red relay on the right and the pump went on working without it. So, as my brother pointed it out, I looked at the schematic on inner side of the relay box cover and there it states that red relay controls the heater fan.

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Here http://fusesdiagram.com/fiat/fuses-a...t-punto-2.html it states that the fuel pump relay is a black relay on the left side, however I don't have that one. So I'm assuming that's meant for diesel engines.

I also rechecked that ground connection (post#22,) it appears to be quite tight and I can't measure any voltage drop on it.
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Last edited by mkey; 4 Days Ago at 14:35.
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