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Old 30-08-2017   #1
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Sad Punto Situation

Hello everyone,


I have been asked to help an elderly disabled couple who have had an extremely bad time in regard to their Fiat Punto. I think its a 1.1 but doesnít seem to match some of the photos I have seen here?

Anyway it was taken to a garage that went into receivership and although they got it back it wasnít running. They then had it collected by another garage who fitted 2 new coil packs and plug leads but were told the car needed a lot more spending on it than they thought but when this garage offered to give them £150.00 for it rather than return it to them they thought something was suspicious so they had the car collected and taken back to them.

This is where I came in and sadly my knowledge of these cars it limited as I am more of an X/19 man.

So far I have had a look at it and read some of the posts on here for guidance but I think I need a little more help and would be grateful for any advice and guidance so that they can have their car running once more.

So far, The air filter was left off and I cannot see a MAP sensor anywhere and I donít think it has one judging by the little valve thing in the air filter housing. Does this make it a 1 litre engine instead? I have checked that I have fuel going to and from the carb/injector unit which it has and apart from a few unplugged items such as the crank sensor which I have put back together I did get it to fire up but albeit very briefly and basically dying again as it wouldnít rev up so I think the engine timing is out.

Today I took out the plugs and saw that they were all black and sooty and not new which I was surprised at because I would have thought the garage would have fitted new ones despite the gunk all the plug washers showed some signs of rust on the washers. Anyway, got a spare set, so using them instead. I checked that I have spark at the plugs and I do which is good but I still think the engine timing is out as it still wonít start. I checked the earth cable body to gearbox.

Now this is where I need some help because the camshaft timing cover looks totally different to the ones I have seen on here and the TDC marking point again is also different to the ones I have seen on here. See Photo.

I have also checked for the timing mark on the Gearbox which I have found and set on the mark. And the crankshaft pulley dot seems to match the mark on this timing cover. ( will recheck that it is on No1 cylinder and not 4) as well as remove the cover to check if it marries up with the camshaft pulley as I cannot see any markings for it on the cover. Maybe someone can tell me?

I havenít checked the crankshaft sensor as yet although having spark must be a good sign!! Same with the ECU not that I would know what to check other than its plugged in and not making any strange noises or is hot.

Other than that I saw on the dash when cranking the red spray logo light flashing presumably this is some sort of fuel heater like a choke and there are no warning codes that I am aware of.

Donít think its overfueling as plugs not particularly wet but apart from the engine timing not sure what to check next.

I have noticed that a lot of people who have had issues havenít said what they did to get their car running again so if anyone has succeeded please let me know what else I need to look at so I can help this couple have their car running again,

Apologies for the long waffle
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Old 30-08-2017   #2
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Re: Sad Punto Situation

It'd be nice to know what the original problem was. By the look of the throttle body i'd say it was a MK1 Punto but stand to be corrected. You seem to have covered most bases, if there's a spark then the crank sensor it O.K. and generally if the timing is out then it won't start, period, but still worth checking.
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Old 30-08-2017   #3
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Re: Sad Punto Situation

It's a 1.1 so would be a mk1 punto.
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Old 31-08-2017   #4
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Re: Sad Punto Situation

Many thanks for the input, so it is a Mark 1 1,1 then as for the original problem all they can tell me is that it when to the original garage for a service and that it was running lumpy and cutting out I think that's why the 2nd garage changed the coil packs and leads.BTW I did check the oil and water just make sure that the head gasket hadn't gone and both are clear and they said they didn't have any overheating problems
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Old 31-08-2017   #5
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Re: Sad Punto Situation

Running lumpy and cutting out is an issue I experience on my 1.1 Seicento, this was down to a split vacuum hose going into the back of the throttle body.

Regarding the timing, as the engine is the same as used in the Cinq/Sei, check that sections Guides for how to replace the timing belt and that should help you get everything aligned correctly.

It will have a MAP sensor, but I'm not too familiar with the Punto layout. In the Cento it's on the offside of the engine bay, near the ECU.

Perhaps someone local can offer some assistance...

Edit: This will probably help you to find the MAP sensor - https://www.fiatforum.com/cinquecent...-pipes-go.html
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Old 31-08-2017   #6
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Re: Sad Punto Situation

Thank you very much that was a brilliant reply going to print off the link and take the picture with me and go through it. I will also read up in the cinqsei section on timing for some further pointers.
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Old 05-09-2017   #7
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Re: Sad Punto Situation

Hello everyone just an update as to what has happened so far.

Well after nearly going word blind from taking the above advice about reading through the cinq/sei section I managed to go back onto the car yesterday and checked out the following.

1 Engine timing took the cam cover off and bellhousing rubber and rechecked the TDC markings. With the flywheel mark aligned with pointer and No 1 piston at TDC the marking on the camshaft pulley looks correct to the TDC mark on the casing (Upper Mark not the BDC Mark) but the crank pulley mark looks out as it doesnít point straight up to where the cam cover would be. I think its a couple of teeth out.
However that could just be my crappy photo so will mark with a marker pen and recheck

I cannot see a marking for the crankshaft on the casing as yet despite using a torch and mirror.

There doesnít seem to be a Camshaft sensor fitted to this engine either. All I can see is a water temp sender unit.
I take it the flat section on the crank pulley is for operation of the CPS.

I checked the CPS to make sure it wasnít loose as the gap looked big but I noticed that this seats within a bevelled bracket presumably to prevent movement. Anyway cleaned it and made sure it was snug and tight. Is this a magnetic type?

2 Idle Stepper motor thought I would remove this for cleaning but the Torx screws are difficult to access and one looks like its ready to round off!!

3 I printed off a copy of the SPI unit that was kindly put up here and tried my best to solve the mystery of the missing MAP Sensor.

According to diagram the No10 outlet is where it should come out of the SPI and go to the MAP but this one looks blocked off and there is no pipe hanging anywhere. I even had another look at the air filter housing for a clue but nothing seemed to reveal itself.

The blue Pipe Outlet No 8 for the charcoal filter checks out ok and so does
No 9 the breather pipe.

4 On cranking over it again almost started but I did notice a couple of backfires could this be overfueling? And what should I look for?

5 I noticed also when cranking the battery light continued to flash (see photo) is this an immobilser and how do I check that its off and causing interference?

6 Despite no water in oil etc I am going back to the car on Thursday and I am going to do a compression test as well recheck the cps with a multimeter if there is anything else anyone can think of that I should check please let me know

Will also try to take better photos!!!
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Old 05-09-2017   #8
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Re: Sad Punto Situation

Ur cam looks spot on to me
U cant see the crank because the marking is under that wheel

Also i cant see the black "pip" in it
That marker it identify which way that phlonic wheel goes back on
Put in 120 or 240degrees out itll run like a pure bag of ****e if it does somehow managed to run

Whip it off to check timing (3 x 13mm bolts)
Also enusre the raised but actually goes back in the correct way onto the phlonic wheel

Gap seems close but as long as there is no contact its all good

Ziggy
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Old 05-09-2017   #9
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Re: Sad Punto Situation

Thanks Ziggy for the advice I will check again on Thursday
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Old 07-09-2017   #10
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Re: Sad Punto Situation

Went back today and I did the following checks

1 Connected battery just to check there were no fault codes flashing and the code key went out when cranking. All seems ok and no immobilser light.

Re-checked the cps with a multimeter that was ok and corresponded to previous tests.

3 The Big one found the MAP Sensor it was mounted in front of my face and sits upside down on a bracket. The vacuum pipe connects goes to the front of The SPI Unit. Pipe was ok no leaks and the sensor checked out ok but still not clear if this unit would prevent the car from starting???

4 Took Ziggyís advice and removed the Phlonic Wheel and rechecked the engine timing marks and all seems correct. See Photos

5 Now the Really Big One The Compression Test. I did this twice over both dry and wet and here are the results.

Number 1 Number 2 Number 3 Number 4
Dry 118 90 125 165
Wet 120 91 125 192

So despite no water in the oil and vice versa it looks like the head is buggered.

I have now explained the situation to this couple and the likely costs involved. I think the garage just plugged an OBD reader in and hoped for the best

I only have an OBD2 reader and I have read about connecting the 3 to 16 pin reader or is the other way round and using a laptop etc but after the above results I donít think it would help other than satisfying my own curiosity.

Finally I would like to thank everyone on here for their replies and advice which was invaluable in helping these people get to the bottom of the problem.
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Old 07-09-2017   #11
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Re: Sad Punto Situation

Head gaskets seem to just get old on these FIRE engines, so it is likely that a new gasket will sort it. A simple enough job on this engine, but of course, has a cost. They seem to have found a couple of garages that are not clever enough for simple things, so need another.

If they decide to sell it, will likely make a cheap purchase for someone able and willing to change the gasket.
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Old 08-09-2017   #12
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Re: Sad Punto Situation

Glad you got to the bottom of it. As above, might be an easy fix with a new gasket and a skim.
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Old 08-09-2017   #13
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Re: Sad Punto Situation

Quote Originally Posted by portland_bill View Post
Head gaskets seem to just get old on these FIRE engines, so it is likely that a new gasket will sort it. A simple enough job on this engine, but of course, has a cost. They seem to have found a couple of garages that are not clever enough for simple things, so need another.

If they decide to sell it, will likely make a cheap purchase for someone able and willing to change the gasket.
Many thanks for that I have explained to them the costs involved and their options but I think they may want to sell it on for spares rather than keep it
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Old 08-09-2017   #14
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Re: Sad Punto Situation

Quote Originally Posted by Eklipze3k View Post
Glad you got to the bottom of it. As above, might be an easy fix with a new gasket and a skim.
Me too, but the help I got on here was brilliant and very supportive glad we could help them out
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Old 10-09-2017   #15
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Re: Sad Punto Situation

Cyl 2 is low but 1 and 3 is okay
So suggest ever valve or bore issues as it didnt inprove with oil

Cyl4 had a big change with oil, indicating bore issues

Thoae figures dont say hg to me... they say engine replacement

Ziggy
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