Register Login
Save up to 15% with Adrian Flux insurance!
Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 08-04-2017   #31
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 73
Thanks: 2
Trader Rating: 0
Finland 
Re: Rough running at idle and serious judder at low RPM in gear

Garage said that removing the fuel tank to look would cost 100's as the bolts and brackets etc are rusty.

Looks like I'm stuck with the leak.

Anyone have any idea why using electrics would make the engine run slightly smoother when idling ?

Paul
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

PaulTobiasx1/9 is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 10-05-2017   #32
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 73
Thanks: 2
Trader Rating: 0
Finland 
Re: Rough running at idle and serious judder at low RPM in gear

Fuel pump replaced, unfortunately didn't cure the rough running at idle and juddering.

Not sure what to try next. No fault codes and don't really know what to look at using OBD connector.

Paul
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

PaulTobiasx1/9 is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 10-05-2017   #33
`
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 6,118
Thanks: 183
Trader Rating: 0
flisko has donated!
United Kingdom 
Re: Rough running at idle and serious judder at low RPM in gear

well next step is measuring compression, does it also misfires when its hot?
you sure this light isnt on?

bottom right
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	hqdefault.jpg
Views:	321
Size:	10.6 KB
ID:	180309  
__________________
.
flisko is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 11-05-2017   #34
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 73
Thanks: 2
Trader Rating: 0
Finland 
Re: Rough running at idle and serious judder at low RPM in gear

Definitely no light, and it works because it illuminates when I remove for example the throttle position sensor cable.

It misfires (at least I think it's a misfire) when hot, both at idle and when giving it throttle. It feels like it 'skips' a couple of times a seconds if that makes sense, and this causes a judder. At idle it maybe does this once every 2 seconds or so and causes a stall eventually.

I could try and get hold of a compression tester kit, what will it tell me if there is a problem in one of the cylinders ? Piston rings ?

Cheers,

Paul
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides


Last edited by PaulTobiasx1/9; 11-05-2017 at 07:51. Reason: missed a bit
PaulTobiasx1/9 is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 11-05-2017   #35
`
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 6,118
Thanks: 183
Trader Rating: 0
flisko has donated!
United Kingdom 
Re: Rough running at idle and serious judder at low RPM in gear

could be head gasket
did you check ht leads at night?
dirty throttle body?

bad coil pack or engine ecu or injector would throw a light so its not that
__________________
.
flisko is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 14-05-2017   #36
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 73
Thanks: 2
Trader Rating: 0
Finland 
Re: Rough running at idle and serious judder at low RPM in gear

I checked at night, didn't see anything but changed the leads anyway. I think there's a slight improvement.

Maybe I shouldn't have fitted cheap Bosch spark plugs ?

How possible is it to change a head gasket at home, with minimal tools, knowledge or competence ?

And does anyone know how the hell I can stop fuel leaking out of the top of the tank, considering I've bought a new fuel sender unit, locking ring and gasket as well as the special tool to do the thing up ? Is there some special procedure I'm not seeing regarding lining up the locking ring or something ?

This car is a living nightmare.

Paul
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

PaulTobiasx1/9 is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 14-05-2017   #37
`
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 6,118
Thanks: 183
Trader Rating: 0
flisko has donated!
United Kingdom 
Re: Rough running at idle and serious judder at low RPM in gear

top plastic nut isnt tight enough and it leaks, or you didnt put that rubber round seal on good enough

for head gasket you can do everything at home apart from head resurfacing, better to bring it to a shop

never did it at home but still



but first find out what the compression is on the cylinders
__________________
.
flisko is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 14-05-2017   #38
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 73
Thanks: 2
Trader Rating: 0
Finland 
Re: Rough running at idle and serious judder at low RPM in gear

Alright cheers, I think if it's the head gasket I'm probably screwed as no way to get head skimmed, do people normally remove the whole engine then and take in another car to garage ?

Paul
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

PaulTobiasx1/9 is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 19-05-2017   #39
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 1
Thanks: 0
Trader Rating: 0
United Kingdom 
Re: Rough running at idle and serious judder at low RPM in gear

Hi there. I'm new here and was just reading through your post. I have the exact same problem with the car juddering really badly when at low revs or taking my foot off the accelerator! Have you managed to find out the problem?
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

Kristianstatham is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 19-05-2017   #40
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Ashington, Northumberland
Posts: 295
Thanks: 25
Trader Rating: 0
United Kingdom 
Re: Rough running at idle and serious judder at low RPM in gear

Sorry to butt in guys - I have a Cinquecento. The misfiring/kangaroo petrol/stalling took me a few days to suss out. There were no error codes ..

Disconnect the electrical connector on the MAP and run the car. If the symptoms disappear or seem to have 'eased' .. suspect the MAP.

As a rough rule of thumb, worn piston rings burn oil and leave a cloud of smoke behind when you accelerate. A burnt or split exhaust valve can cause what feels like a misfire. A compression test followed by a 'wet' compression test can help identify the problem

** Before anybody rushes off and pays lots of money to have a new head gasket .. try one of the modern head-fix additives. I'm told that the 'steel seal' is excellent.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_odkw=punto+map&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid =p2045573.m570.l1313.TR6.TRC0.A0.H0.Xcylinder+head +fix.TRS0&_nkw=cylinder+head+fix&_sacat=0
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides


Last edited by glenn2602; 19-05-2017 at 21:41.
glenn2602 is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 29-05-2017   #41
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 73
Thanks: 2
Trader Rating: 0
Finland 
Re: Rough running at idle and serious judder at low RPM in gear

Quote Originally Posted by glenn2602 View Post
Sorry to butt in guys - I have a Cinquecento. The misfiring/kangaroo petrol/stalling took me a few days to suss out. There were no error codes ..

Disconnect the electrical connector on the MAP and run the car. If the symptoms disappear or seem to have 'eased' .. suspect the MAP.

As a rough rule of thumb, worn piston rings burn oil and leave a cloud of smoke behind when you accelerate. A burnt or split exhaust valve can cause what feels like a misfire. A compression test followed by a 'wet' compression test can help identify the problem

** Before anybody rushes off and pays lots of money to have a new head gasket .. try one of the modern head-fix additives. I'm told that the 'steel seal' is excellent.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_odkw=punto+map&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid =p2045573.m570.l1313.TR6.TRC0.A0.H0.Xcylinder+head +fix.TRS0&_nkw=cylinder+head+fix&_sacat=0
Problem still not fixed. Have not managed to get a compression testing unit yet, new throttle body has not fixed the issues (so new Throttle position sensor and idle air control valve came with.)

Tried a new MAP sensor at the scrapyard and the problem did not improve.

The oil is getting used up fast, but not seeing particularly much of anything coming out of the exhaust.

I wonder if the exhaust valve you mentioned could be it, how easy to change ?

Paul
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides


Last edited by PaulTobiasx1/9; 29-05-2017 at 16:51.
PaulTobiasx1/9 is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 29-05-2017   #42
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Ashington, Northumberland
Posts: 295
Thanks: 25
Trader Rating: 0
United Kingdom 
Re: Rough running at idle and serious judder at low RPM in gear

You have a new throttle position sensor and air idle valve, so they can't be at fault. However, try disconnecting the battery for 20 minutes to see if the air idle valve (also sometimes called a stepper motor) will reset itself.

To change the exhaust valve(s) you have to remove the cylinder head. You would also have to remove all valves and bits and pieces from the head before taking it to an engineering shop to have it skimmed. It isn't a difficult job removing and overhauling a cylinder head - just time consuming and slow.

Having said that, your cylinder head may not actually need skimming. Because of its shape a cylinder head warps - bends upwards in the middle - banana shaped. This is due to heat in the centre and cooler air around the outside.

If the car hasn't overheated, the head may not be warped. You can check it yourself by holding a steel rule lengthways along the head. You can clean and polish a cylinder head by sticking medium grade abrasive paper onto a sheet of glass or wood and rubbing the head across its width .. not along its length. Then give it a polish with fine abrasive paper.

Though of course there's no point in removing the head unless you suspect something is wrong. You say the oil is getting used up fast but you can't see any visible smoke. You're absolutely certain that there are no oil leaks?

If there are no oil leaks the engine is burning oil. The oil will be either trickling down the valve guides into the bores whilst the car is standing - this is usually due to worn valve guides/stem seals. At start up from cold you may get a cloud of blue smoke which quickly disappears.

The alternative is that the piston rings/bores are worn, allowing oil up into the combustion chamber.

Check your spark plugs - are any of them blackened or oiled? An oiled or burnt plug can cause a misfire.

You need to do a compression test to find out the state of your engine. That's a dry compression test followed by a 'wet' test. If you're not sure what to do, let me know.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	plugs.png
Views:	18
Size:	312.9 KB
ID:	180898  
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides


Last edited by glenn2602; 29-05-2017 at 17:26.
glenn2602 is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 30-05-2017   #43
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 73
Thanks: 2
Trader Rating: 0
Finland 
Re: Rough running at idle and serious judder at low RPM in gear

Quote Originally Posted by glenn2602 View Post
You have a new throttle position sensor and air idle valve, so they can't be at fault. However, try disconnecting the battery for 20 minutes to see if the air idle valve (also sometimes called a stepper motor) will reset itself.
I'll try this today but don't hold much hope, it was probably unplugged for 20 minutes anyway when I was replacing the throttle body.

Quote Originally Posted by glenn2602 View Post
To change the exhaust valve(s) you have to remove the cylinder head. You would also have to remove all valves and bits and pieces from the head before taking it to an engineering shop to have it skimmed. It isn't a difficult job removing and overhauling a cylinder head - just time consuming and slow.

Having said that, your cylinder head may not actually need skimming. Because of its shape a cylinder head warps - bends upwards in the middle - banana shaped. This is due to heat in the centre and cooler air around the outside.

If the car hasn't overheated, the head may not be warped. You can check it yourself by holding a steel rule lengthways along the head. You can clean and polish a cylinder head by sticking medium grade abrasive paper onto a sheet of glass or wood and rubbing the head across its width .. not along its length. Then give it a polish with fine abrasive paper.
Sounds hellish (for someone like me) if the head is warped, I wouldn't have thought the car had over-heated since I've never seen a warning light. That said my Punto is so cheap there isn't even a temp gauge to see if it's running hot often.

Quote Originally Posted by glenn2602 View Post
Though of course there's no point in removing the head unless you suspect something is wrong. You say the oil is getting used up fast but you can't see any visible smoke. You're absolutely certain that there are no oil leaks?

If there are no oil leaks the engine is burning oil. The oil will be either trickling down the valve guides into the bores whilst the car is standing - this is usually due to worn valve guides/stem seals. At start up from cold you may get a cloud of blue smoke which quickly disappears.
I think at least a little bit of oil, is leaking out of the rocker cover gasket round the back, (right where the spark plugs are). It doesn't look particularly significant though.

Quote Originally Posted by glenn2602 View Post
The alternative is that the piston rings/bores are worn, allowing oil up into the combustion chamber.

Check your spark plugs - are any of them blackened or oiled? An oiled or burnt plug can cause a misfire.
I'm not sure if it's cyclinder 1 or 4 but the one on the far left, from the point of view of sitting in the car gets a bit of oil on it somehow.

Quote Originally Posted by glenn2602 View Post
You need to do a compression test to find out the state of your engine. That's a dry compression test followed by a 'wet' test. If you're not sure what to do, let me know.
Compression test impossible unless I buy a compression thingy. I'm tempted to just try and get rid of the car ASAP

Paul
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

PaulTobiasx1/9 is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 30-05-2017   #44
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Ashington, Northumberland
Posts: 295
Thanks: 25
Trader Rating: 0
United Kingdom 
Re: Rough running at idle and serious judder at low RPM in gear

No1 spark plug will be nearest the timing gear.

The plug is getting oiled up - oil on the electrode?
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

glenn2602 is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 30-05-2017   #45
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 73
Thanks: 2
Trader Rating: 0
Finland 
Re: Rough running at idle and serious judder at low RPM in gear

Quote Originally Posted by glenn2602 View Post
No1 spark plug will be nearest the timing gear.

The plug is getting oiled up - oil on the electrode?
Yes there has been oil on the electrode, I would guess then that it's number 4? I'm assuming the timing gear is on the right hand side from the point of view of sitting in the car, where the crank sensor, alternator etc is ?

Paul
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

PaulTobiasx1/9 is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Reply
Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump
Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
(T) Poor running at low rpm and low mpg.... mick_with_cinq Bravo 4 12-02-2013 19:26
(T) Rough idle , low mpg 5APPH1R5 Multipla 12 20-09-2012 23:40
(G) To low rpm at warm idle, RPM sensor? Migaard Marea 13 29-05-2007 15:47
To low rpm at warm idle, RPM sensor? Migaard Newbie Central 2 25-05-2007 18:26