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Old 22-03-2017   #16
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Re: Rough running at idle and serious judder at low RPM in gear

Quote Originally Posted by flisko View Post
bad coil pack would turn on engine light, but still if you wont scan for errors you are just guessing, without another car for parts its not that easy
It's not that I won't scan but...

1) I think it's not even OBII on a 2000 punto correct? Have no idea which scanner to get.

2) I thought that since I actually get no engine warning light there would be no code anyway?

Paul
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Old 22-03-2017   #17
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Re: Rough running at idle and serious judder at low RPM in gear

you got obd2
either get bluetooth adapter + phone app torque or elm cable + laptop +mes
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Old 23-03-2017   #18
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Re: Rough running at idle and serious judder at low RPM in gear

Why are many people saying the 2000 models are not OBD2 compliant then ?

As I understand it the law only changed in 2001 forcing the OBD2.

See these for example;

https://www.zasttra.com/pages/list-o...le-fiat-tested

https://www.fiatforum.com/punto-ii/1...reg-punto.html


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Old 23-03-2017   #19
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Re: Rough running at idle and serious judder at low RPM in gear

I've ordered the bluetooth thing to connect, and have a demo copy of alfa obd on my phone which might just work if I'm lucky.

Paul
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Old 26-03-2017   #20
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Re: Rough running at idle and serious judder at low RPM in gear

download torque phone app its good
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Old 27-03-2017   #21
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Re: Rough running at idle and serious judder at low RPM in gear

Don't beleive it will work but I'll try anyway if it's free.

One of those links I posted before they are specifically talking about how the torque app would not work with a 2000 punto.

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Old 27-03-2017   #22
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Re: Rough running at idle and serious judder at low RPM in gear

Bluetooth ELM327 dongle doesn't even light up ? XXXXXXX

Edited....

Okay I got it to work now.

This is some log that I did, plenty of fault codes which I cleared and have not come back since;

https://jpst.it/Wh-G

Car still running badly but does not seem to stall even with the throttle position sensor plugged in, but it still feels like it would really like to.

Weirdly I found that putting the rear window heater on seemed to stop the chokes at idle but this still didn't improve the driving judder. Could this mean there is some kind of over voltage problem affecting the ignition circuit maybe ?

Gf tried a bit of monitoring whilst driving using the graphs in alfaobd. Found that

Injection time varied between 1-10 milliseconds
Lambda sensor cycled between 19 - 800 mv

Anything significant ?

Can anyone suggest things to look at now it seems like I actually can ? I wanted to check the fuel pressure but can't actually see anything for it in AlfaOBD. Will try the torque app and anything else I can find but I'm expecting from what I've read that only Alfaobd program is likely to work.

Cheers,

Paul
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Last edited by PaulTobiasx1/9; 27-03-2017 at 16:57. Reason: update
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Old 27-03-2017   #23
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Re: Rough running at idle and serious judder at low RPM in gear

Quote Originally Posted by PaulTobiasx1/9 View Post
Bluetooth ELM327 dongle doesn't even light up ? XXXXXXX

Edited....

Okay I got it to work now.

This is some log that I did, plenty of fault codes which I cleared and have not come back since;

https://jpst.it/Wh-G

Car still running badly but does not seem to stall even with the throttle position sensor plugged in, but it still feels like it would really like to.

Weirdly I found that putting the rear window heater on seemed to stop the chokes at idle but this still didn't improve the driving judder. Could this mean there is some kind of over voltage problem affecting the ignition circuit maybe ?

Gf tried a bit of monitoring whilst driving using the graphs in alfaobd. Found that

Injection time varied between 1-10 milliseconds
Lambda sensor cycled between 19 - 800 mv

Anything significant ?

Can anyone suggest things to look at now it seems like I actually can ? I wanted to check the fuel pressure but can't actually see anything for it in AlfaOBD. Will try the torque app and anything else I can find but I'm expecting from what I've read that only Alfaobd program is likely to work.

Cheers,

Paul
For reference the early puntos 1999 / 2000 were obd2 compliant

However 2001 - 2006 were different in the sense that they used a different protocol to communicate
They had yellow emls for exanple and early had red

Silly thing but they are compliant and do worm fine!

As for injection variance should be occouring depending on the other sensor inputs, which is a good sign its actually controlling fuel inputs

Lambda should fluctuate, the car is striving to reach perfect burn (lambda one or stiometric ratio 1)
As a result it riches and leans the fuel.mixture and u should see a peaking and troughing of lambda on a pre cat sensor

Ziggy
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Old 27-03-2017   #24
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Re: Rough running at idle and serious judder at low RPM in gear

Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy122 View Post
For reference the early puntos 1999 / 2000 were obd2 compliant

However 2001 - 2006 were different in the sense that they used a different protocol to communicate
They had yellow emls for exanple and early had red

Silly thing but they are compliant and do worm fine!

As for injection variance should be occouring depending on the other sensor inputs, which is a good sign its actually controlling fuel inputs

Lambda should fluctuate, the car is striving to reach perfect burn (lambda one or stiometric ratio 1)
As a result it riches and leans the fuel.mixture and u should see a peaking and troughing of lambda on a pre cat sensor

Ziggy
But I thought the whole point of what OBD2 means is the protocol?

And yes I have the red engine management light meaning I have something older which I already knew.

I'll try the torque app tomorrow, at least it might help others to know what might / might not work on a 2000 punto.

I should add that I removed a resistor labelled R4, though I'm not completely sure I needed to. The reason for doing it was that I thought that maybe the unit wasn't working due to something i'd read about needed to remove a resistor that was between pins 6 and 14. Anyway it luckily still worked when I realised I hadn't initially pushed the dongle thing in far enough.

Looks like nothing abnormal seen yet then. There's almost too much data now and plenty of driving symptoms as well. I can actually smell fuel a bit now so I'm concerned I have a fuel line leak. That's part of the reason I would have wanted to check fuel pressure.

Symptoms are, to summarise;

-Rough Idle but didn't actually stall earlier even with throttle position sensor plugged in.
-Horribly jerky at low revs or when taking foot off accelerator.
-Slight smell of fuel outside the car somewhere.

Paul
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Old 27-03-2017   #25
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Re: Rough running at idle and serious judder at low RPM in gear

Look at the obd2 protocol as been a sort of irish,scotish,american, british versions of the "English language"
All same thing - but slight variations

Most generic obd2 scanners can talk to them
I did havenissues with a 2000 pug x reg but thats probably cause its french tbh...

Ziggy
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Old 27-03-2017   #26
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Re: Rough running at idle and serious judder at low RPM in gear

Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy122 View Post
Look at the obd2 protocol as been a sort of irish,scotish,american, british versions of the "English language"
All same thing - but slight variations

Most generic obd2 scanners can talk to them
I did havenissues with a 2000 pug x reg but thats probably cause its french tbh...

Ziggy
Okay thanks, I'll try some other apps tomorrow then see if I can get a fuel pressure reading. Maybe it's just not possible on my ECU ?

If anyone has any suggestions on what data to look at or log regarding this I'd be most grateful. I've tried new plugs, leads, coilpacks, MAP sensor so I don't believe any of these to be the issue. I'll see if any new fault codes come up in the next couple of days since I've now cleared the old ones. Not expecting anything though as I have not actually had the engine light come on other than when I have myself removed a connector to MAP / TPS.

Paul

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Old 27-03-2017   #27
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Re: Rough running at idle and serious judder at low RPM in gear

Quote Originally Posted by PaulTobiasx1/9 View Post
Okay thanks, I'll try some other apps tomorrow then see if I can get a fuel pressure reading. Maybe it's just not possible on my ECU ?

If anyone has any suggestions on what data to look at or log regarding this I'd be most grateful. I've tried new plugs, leads, coilpacks, MAP sensor so I don't believe any of these to be the issue. I'll see if any new fault codes come up in the next couple of days since I've now cleared the old ones. Not expecting anything though as I have not actually had the engine light come on other than when I have myself removed a connector to MAP / TPS.

Paul

Paul
Multi ecu scan should do what u need on free version
If 20mins aint enough time restart the software and go again
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Old 28-03-2017   #28
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Re: Rough running at idle and serious judder at low RPM in gear

Okay,

Multi ecu scan works but the torque app doesn't. With torque it connects and then tries to find the correct protocol but it never does and consequently it just hangs on 'connecting to ECU' or whatever it was.

Couldn't really see any issues in multi ecu scan, but again, I don't really know what values are good or bad. I suspect the idle control valve isn't moving as fast as it should. Now I've meddled around a bit its idling at much higher rpm but still judder when driving, though potentially not as much.

All this aside I've now noticed the bottom of the fuel tank is wet so it's going to have to go to the garage anyway to look at that first.

Could a fuel leak explain the other symptoms ? I can't be really sure where exactly the fuel is coming from.

Paul
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Old 28-03-2017   #29
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Re: Rough running at idle and serious judder at low RPM in gear

you sure thats fuel?
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Old 28-03-2017   #30
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Re: Rough running at idle and serious judder at low RPM in gear

Quote Originally Posted by flisko View Post
you sure thats fuel?
Very sure as it also smells like fuel.

Why what else do you think it could be ?

I have no idea where exactly it's coming from, I know it's going to cost though !

Paul
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