Thanks Judderbar you're a star

Just wondering about the timing on the 16V. If you didn't set anything before stripping down of the engine how would you go about setting the timing correctly when you came to assembling it?

Kirok said:

Just wondering about the timing on the 16V. If you didn't set anything before stripping down of the engine how would you go about setting the timing correctly when you came to assembling it?

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You would need to rotate the camshaft until you can get the locking pin in. There is only 1 notch per 360 degrees so you don't need to worry about being out of phase here.

Then you need to align cylinder 1 and 2 to the exact same high at half their stroke by turning the crank shaft pully. I can't remember if cylinder 1 needs to be on its inlet or exahst stroke - the haynes manual tells you. It is very important you get the right stroke otherwise you could be 180 degrees out of phase with the camshaft.

Stick it all back together and follow standard timing alignment procedures using the piston position indicator tools. As it's an interference engine it's very important your timing is correct. Make sure to crank by hand for a few cycles. If your timing is off you will reach a point where you can't turn the crank anymore as a piston is touching a valve.

grapeman said:

You would need to rotate the camshaft until you can get the locking pin in. There is only 1 notch per 360 degrees so you don't need to worry about being out of phase here.

Then you need to align cylinder 1 and 2 to the exact same high at half their stroke by turning the crank shaft pully. I can't remember if cylinder 1 needs to be on its inlet or exahst stroke - the haynes manual tells you. It is very important you get the right stroke otherwise you could be 180 degrees out of phase with the camshaft.

Stick it all back together and follow standard timing alignment procedures using the piston position indicator tools. As it's an interference engine it's very important your timing is correct. Make sure to crank by hand for a few cycles. If your timing is off you will reach a point where you can't turn the crank anymore as a piston is touching a valve.

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My haynes does not describe in sufficient detail how to set the timing because it only says to set the pistons equally level. Equally level can be one of two crankshaft positions.

To make it worse this forum says in some places you time number 1. for down stroke on inlet and in other places for upstroke on compression.

The only thing that makes sense to me because of the position of the cam lobes on my locked extension with the outercams retracted is you time for number one half way up an upstroke which is either compression or exhaust. When the engine is assembled you are therefore locked half way up the compression stroke.

I will check my engine to find out!

I checked on my car. With the cam locking slot correctly positioned with two rods level in cylinders 1 and 2, the number one rod moved downwards when I pulled the car forwards in gear.

So you set the pistons level with the number one on a down stroke.

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How that fits with my memory of me doing the head extension with the lock in with only the middle valves being pressed I have no idea at all at the moment :-(

Does the engine rotate in a clockwise direction as viewed from the near side (drivers side on RHD)?

Kirok said:

Does the engine rotate in a clockwise direction as viewed from the near side (drivers side on RHD)?

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Yeah it's clockwise.

Still assembling the parts needed for this job! Takes a while here. Having trouble locating a head gasket kit. I can see those on ebay etc but am concerned about fitting a non genuine gasket. Do these pattern part gaskets do the job ok?

Kirok said:

Still assembling the parts needed for this job! Takes a while here. Having trouble locating a head gasket kit. I can see those on ebay etc but am concerned about fitting a non genuine gasket. Do these pattern part gaskets do the job ok?

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Personally I tend to stay away from eBay as the quality is a little vague with either no listed manufacturer or unestablished ones.

I've recently used an FAI kit which is still going strong. I've also used OEM ones which were good. Febi are also good quality and I think, if I remember correctly, make fiat's oem kits.

Steer clear of MLS gaskets as apparently fiat adviced not to use them on these engines.

I recommend going to Shop4parts for the kit. They sell both the oem and aftermarket kits. Might need to phone for oem.

Thanks I did check their site but they just listed an aftermarket option, I'll ask them about oem.

MLS: MultiLayerShim

Designed to work with poorly designed engines :Rover K Type, etc

Nothing wrong with the FIRE Engines

OK so I made a start and have removed the cylinder head. Went ok but I decided to remove the head with the inlet manifold attached. Also had a problem getting the belt off the aircon pump but eventually removed it by unbolting the crankshaft drive pulley and then taking off the alternator drive belt.

I didn't bother with the flat tools for the head extension and was lucky that only 5 tappets dropped out onto the cylinder head and I was able to put them back in the correct ports.

Seeing as I don't yet have the timing tools I used a couple of knitting needles in cylinders 1 and 2 to get the engine to MDC and a mirror to check the camshaft 'notch' was in the right position. I'll fit the lock when it arrives.

Looking at the head and gasket it seems that there was some transfer going on between cylinders 1 and 2, the head gasket is a bit more eroded on the underside in that blackened area on the photo.

I can't tell what make the gasket is, are there any markings I should look for to see if it's a genuine Fiat item?

Total time taken so far is about 5 hours.

Anyone have any idea of the difference between these Payen head gasket kits for the 16V engine, part numbers DY383 and CE5181

Kirok said:

OK so I made a start and have removed the cylinder head. Went ok but I decided to remove the head with the inlet manifold attached. Also had a problem getting the belt off the aircon pump but eventually removed it by unbolting the crankshaft drive pulley and then taking off the alternator drive belt.

I didn't bother with the flat tools for the head extension and was lucky that only 5 tappets dropped out onto the cylinder head and I was able to put them back in the correct ports.

Seeing as I don't yet have the timing tools I used a couple of knitting needles in cylinders 1 and 2 to get the engine to MDC and a mirror to check the camshaft 'notch' was in the right position. I'll fit the lock when it arrives.

Looking at the head and gasket it seems that there was some transfer going on between cylinders 1 and 2, the head gasket is a bit more eroded on the underside in that blackened area on the photo.

I can't tell what make the gasket is, are there any markings I should look for to see if it's a genuine Fiat item?

Total time taken so far is about 5 hours.

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Nice going! Be sure to take extra care to check the timing when you stick it all back together.

The gasket does not look like a fiat part. The fiat gasket is black and it's composite whereas yours is red and appears to have metal within - perhaps an mls. The fiat gaskets have the word alto written on them which means top. They also stamp their fiat group logo into it.

I agree there looks to be damage between 1&2. 3&4 also looks a bit suspect but I'm only going off a picture.

Be sure to properly clean the block surface but don't use anything abrasive. Will you be sending the head off for skimming?

Nice improvisation with the timing tools

Hi grapeman I'll take the head along to the garage and see what they say. They did the original job on it about 2 years ago before I had the car. They re-tempered the head and had it skimmed and lapped in the valves etc so maybe it won't need doing again. I'll put a straight edge on it and the block as well to see if there's anything obvious.
Just need to check that the Payen gasket kit I'm getting is the correct one.
I was surprised to find quite a bit of red liquid type gasket residue on the head gasket as well, not something I've seen before unless it's pre-beaded on a new gasket?

Another photo of cylinders 3 and 4 with old gasket still fitted, you can easily see the red gasket residue.

Shot of the head gasket - block face side - between cylinder 1 and 2 shows erosion of the sealing surface.

Kirok said:

Another photo of cylinders 3 and 4 with old gasket still fitted, you can easily see the red gasket residue.

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Perhaps it's an elastomer gasket. They're made of a single sheet of metal with sealing beads around key areas. I didn't know you could fit them to these engines. Anyway, if I were you, I'd stick a good quality composite back on. It's what the engine was designed for.

The head gasket turned out to be an aftermarket composite type.
The MLS (multi layer steel) head gaskets are fitted on engines from engine number 0616937 about 2004. The difference is that the block and cylinder head faces have to be very, very flat and also very, very smooth. It's recommended that these heads/block faces are only skimmed (if necessary) by a machine shop with special machines that can reproduce the very fine finish that the factory originally produced.

Reassembly tips

I had the head checked for flatness and they said it was within tolerance. They also did something called a hardness check on the aluminium of the head face.

I cleaned the block face with a razor blade and petrol and used a Guarnitauto head gasket kit for the reassembly. I fitted the inlet manifold to the cylinder head before refitting it to avoid the difficulty of getting those bolts in with the head on.

Before fitting the head I check fitted and then loosely fitted the a/c and alternator drive belts. The a/c belt is a bugger to adjust to tension as one of the bolts is well hidden behind the a/c pump down behind the inlet manifold (when it's fitted) so I made sure it was loose before I refitted the head and manifold as a unit. There are enough bolts to tension the belt up without having that hidden one to worry about later.

I used new bolts when re-torquing the head down with a No10 RIBE bit in the 3 stages mentioned in Haynes: 22 ft lbs, 90 degrees, 90 degrees. I almost buggered it up here by not making a note of where I was up to as I got disturbed half way through the re-torquing procedure. I'd recommend a piece of paper with the procedure written down so you can tick each task off as you complete it.

When refitting the head extension I used some axle grease on the tappet walls to 'stick' them in so I could fit it without having to fabricate a couple of flat retaining tools. I used a magnet to fit the bolts into the head extension and got them started in the threads before using the No8 RIBE bit to tighten them up to just 11 ft lbs.

The timing was pretty straight forward using the correct tools. To loosen the camshaft pulley I just used a breaker bar and relied on the cam lock tool which worked ok (and re-tightening to 89 ft lbs). To adjust the cambelt idler bearing I used a couple of small drill bits in the two holes and a screwdriver to tension it up. I then turned the engine over by hand twice using a socket and rechecked the tension as it says to do in the Haynes manual.

There's quite a few electrical plugs to refit and so slow and methodical is the best approach. The engine shop told me to use just water in the cooling system for 10 heat/cooling cycles before flushing and refilling with antifreeze. This gives the gasket a chance to bed in without the antifreeze attacking the gasket during this process. I don't know if this is true but I thought it sounded sensible.

This reassembly took me about 7 hours all in and so far the engine seems to be running fine, it was a bit tappety but quietened down after about 10 minutes.

Some people add sealer when fitting fibre gaskets. This can be anything from products like Threebond to Aluminium paint. Modern fibre gaskets are generally faced with sealer and adding foreign stuff can work against the gasket.
I see mention of the K5 engine aways back in the thread. If memory serves a lot of the problem with hg failure in these units was down to electrolytic corrosion. The earthing in the car wasn't very clever and it was using the coolant as a return path. If the coolant does not have enough protection the inside of the system is effectively a battery cell and it starts eating itself up any where there are dissimilar metals - heads and fire rings in gaskets for example.
I check the voltage between the coolant and battery negative. If it's more than 500 mV you have a problem and at the very least need a coolant change. Switching on various loads in the car changes the voltage and if you see a spike when a particular load is on you have a good indication that the earthing is bad on that circuit.