oldhammer said:

the timing does look way out,belt must be to slack for it to jump,or tensioner is fubard..

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You think the same?

Ball boy - for the cost of just readjusting the timing yourself, *couple of hours max from start to finish*

i'd try it - i think its jumped
As to why - i dont know

Ziggy

it will cost Nil.to try Retiming it.


*if the timing has jumped id be looking at the belt for any missing teeth &
check tensioner.


and see if waterpump is intact.


only other thing is..if any of the cylinders as filled up with water at speed itd lock the engine..and couid cause the belt to jump.

Think it may just be the photo was taken, as I could not get camera in there on the level,
just put car all back together now as well, But as you say its only my time to recheck it again, so that's easy enough, belt felt ok when I twisted it, I will take it apart again tomorrow or on Friday,
If the belt has jumped why would it jump ? been ok for 18 months or so, trouble is, as I don't drive the car & daughter doesn't live here I only see/hear the car as they pull up in the drive so don't know if anything has been wrong/going wrong with the car
maybe because my mind was thinking "timings ok, its got to be the head gasket" maybe I didn't look at cam marks right, well a re-check will sort it either way

ballboy said:

Think it may just be the photo was taken, as I could not get camera in there on the level,
just put car all back together now as well, But as you say its only my time to recheck it again, so that's easy enough, belt felt ok when I twisted it, I will take it apart again tomorrow or on Friday,

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Others have suggested a straight edge because it is so difficult to line it up with the engine in place. One way is to rotate the timing mark so it points straight up and then put a line across the width of the belt where the pulley notch is and then rotate back to check?

Can the pressures really be so low and so equally low??

been looking at photo again, I've uploaded the photo with red circle around the timing mark, now it does not look that much out and that could be just camera angle
the timing marks are the ones I've used before, changed the twice before last time around 18 months ago, I did the compression tests twice, first time I got on cyl's 1 & 2 only 30 lbs, second time I got 60, 50 lbs, Like I say maybe its me, but I think I've done it right.
in the photo that ziggy has added the lines too, the timing mark on the engine case is just above the black line, with the mark on the cam wheel below the black line, but that could be just angle of camera, photo not square so ziggy's line will not be square

ballboy said:

been looking at photo again, I've uploaded the photo with red circle around the timing mark, now it does not look that much out and that could be just camera angle
the timing marks are the ones I've used before, changed the twice before last time around 18 months ago, I did the compression tests twice, first time I got on cyl's 1 & 2 only 30 lbs, second time I got 60, 50 lbs, Like I say maybe its me, but I think I've done it right.
in the photo that ziggy has added the lines too, the timing mark on the engine case is just above the black line, with the mark on the cam wheel below the black line, but that could be just angle of camera, photo not square so ziggy's line will not be square

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Either way without the top part of the engine more or less beginning to melt the various plastic parts i am struggling to see how the metal of the head gasket seal could have so comprehensively failed so evenly on all 4 cylinders. Maybe the others can tell me it is normal though

I am really wanting to believe you still have a possible easy fix ahead of you!

trouble is its my future son in law that uses the car to get to work, he needs a car next Thursday, it has to be reliable, as he can't do any jobs with his hands, so I have a few days to fix it, I've read that once head gaskets gone you have to skim head and replace/seat new valves etc =recon head, on ebay are £160, to get head done somewhere maybe cheaper but longer time frame, add to that cost of gaskets, oil, filters etc, looking nearly £250 for 02 reg 114k on clock, if you could just clean heads like the old days I would just change head gasket, but ?

only thing I can think of is, they were in big traffic jam just before they came to be last weekend, with that dripping water from the O ring at back of the water pump, maybe there was air lock trapped in cylinder head, and head has over heated and warpped ? when they left here they broke down about 25 miles away

did it "overheat" / go HOT.. or just die at the side of the road..??,

the 8V engines are easy for a Head Gasket change, bolts are re-useable,
so it's a £10 / £15 job,

I've never skimmed one yet,and always holds fine for the years I keep the cars :worship:

TBH do the timing.. as I've no reason to suspect anything other than poor timing will lead to a "backfire"

the 8V's will run acceptable @4 teeth out of time..,
but not run at 7..!!,
been there done that

Charlie - Oxford

It should be higher up on the black line of my image I think
Not the red circle u have added


Ziggy

Finally found the thread wherre dacr posted up the timing marks for a fiat punto

https://www.fiatforum.com/punto-ii/19733-photos-timing-marks-8v-f-i-r-e-engines.html


Im almost sure your images tell me its timing is out


Ziggy

I think the problem Ballboy is having with the idea the timing is wrong is that he last did the timing, feels he knows what he is looking for and he cannot now believe it is wrong.

If it is a £15 job to confirm the head gasket was fine he may as well take the head off and then do the timing and see if it starts

If he had compressed air he could do some tests for a failed head gasket but he is retired and out in the sticks - perhaps it just easier to take the head off??

I'm sure its lined up to the right mark, it is the only indent on the body of the engine
I'll recheck it again today


when it broke down they said it lost power, so they pulled onto hard shoulder then as they stop smoke poured out of the front of the bonnet
when I got there I lifted the bonnet there was a lot of oily water on inside of bumper below where the head lights fitted drivers side, (coated with this oily water, he has been putting in rad seal with water to reduce the water leaking from the O ring, so maybe that is why water was oily) there was same water on chassis where rad sits but not as much, when I looked at it I thought it was oil that had shot out, but when I got home I saw it was oily water
it had not rain for a few days so not rain water,

As far as i can tell this engine is timed at or near number one TDC firing. If so both cams will be pointing straight up or near so when the cover comes off and you can assume that you will need to take the head off. These engines lean forwards in the engine compartment though so straight up is a relative term.

To be honest i get the impression you know what you are doing anyway and just need the moral support to get it done.

I do most of the repairs on my cars always have, just need that advice/tips from those that have done job before, and as I say just need that confidence boost, as I say I have time (I'm retired) but its the cost, and the time to get spares/fix for next Wednesday

ballboy said:

I do most of the repairs on my cars always have, just need that advice/tips from those that have done job before, and as I say just need that confidence boost, as I say I have time (I'm retired) but its the cost, and the time to get spares/fix for next Wednesday

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What i said about the cams cannot be true on a single cam. Evidently you do know what you are doing - more than me i am thinking.

just re-done compression test
all spark plugs out
cy 1 60
cy 2 50
cy 3 60
cy 4 60


plugs in tested cy4 & 1 only (easy to get too, and just to give example of plugs in)
cy 1 40
cy 4 45


this time when I took out the tester there was black oily/petrol on the end of it, same on the plug of cy 1, which was last test,


maybe turned engine over a bit longer on each of these tests,


now not sure if I should take head off or not,
will recheck timing, as that would be part way to removing the head,

just re-checked the timing, photos attached
using a mirror (hard to get head in there) the cam lines up with the nic
in photo cam 2 taken from a slight angle marks are 1/2 teeth out, in photo cam 2-3 taken from other side looks miles out,
but with mirror in font of cam wheel looks ok


so now think with those compression test results there must be major gasket damage,

ballboy said:

just re-checked the timing, photos attached
using a mirror (hard to get head in there) the cam lines up with the nic
in photo cam 2 taken from a slight angle marks are 1/2 teeth out, in photo cam 2-3 taken from other side looks miles out,
but with mirror in font of cam wheel looks ok


so now think with those compression test results there must be major gasket damage,

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with description of oily water , it's pressurised the cooling water and pushed it out of rad. cap,

so HG almost a certainty

plenty of guides on here of the changing procedure,

make sure you get the cause sorted - before rebuild

new o-ring on rail,
flushed/ replaced radiator( choked with poisonous "radweld" :bang

check flatness of head,

rebuild

Ballboy, To answer your PM, I have never tested for head gasket failure using compressed air but for sure other people here will have and can advise.

However to test for a head gasket failure using compressed air you need to.

1. Put the cylinder under test at TDC firing - the idea being the valves of the cylinder are closed and it will be hard for the piston to be pushed down from a stationary position when pressure is applied.

2. Hook up your existing compressed air to just the hose of your compression tester. The hose is going to have a valve in it which you will need to unscrew so likely you will need to make your own tool or go to a garage able to fix a tyre



The obvious first thing to test for is a flow of air between the cylinder and cooling system, with the cooling system full of water you look for air coming out of the reservoir - you could also mix up a soapy water foam and paint it around the head gasket join where you can get to it. If you get no flow into the cooling system you can put oil into the cylinder to stop air passing the rings and listen for leaks from the oil channels, and listen to leaks passing into the other cylinders - maybe a tube down the spark plug hole of the other cylinders or oil channels with the other end near your ear is going to make it easier to locate the noise.

You need to be careful of the amount of pressure you use so you dont spin the engine if your hands are near the moving parts.