ballboy said:

photos attached of spark plugs, can't see that green tint on it
also attached throttle photo, at bottom of throttle chamber there was what smells like burnt oil, which I expect came in view the rocker case breather pipe, the rubber which goes on the neck of the air filter also had lots of same oil on/in it
that has been in there since yesterday as filter is off, should the pistons have suck is in to the chambers as I turned the engine over ?
I clean the oil out and sprayed it with carb cleaner, turned the engine over and that is still siting in base of the throttle chamber


turned engine over turn engine off, and pressed the petrol valve this time squirt went into the air, so yes looks like pressure is there, but its only about a teaspoon full if that, not a tablespoon full.


checked all plug leads they all spark ok, listened to the injectors all clicking

Click to expand...

My pressure release valve points to the side. I just collected the entire fuel amount into a cup and it comes to only slightly more than a teaspoon perhaps a teaspoon and a half.

Can you smell fuel at the exhaust?

Worth removing the timing cover and checking for tension on the belt - if the belt is loose it will slip and the timing will be out - the engine should be fine once the belt is replaced and correctly tensioned and timed.

This video is in a foreign language but it clearly shows the timing belt and how tight it should be.

not smelt the exhaust,
this is what I've got so far


All the leads give a spark to test spark plug
all the injectors are making a noise, (tick-tick-tick-etc)
the is petrol at the test point on the bar
I can see the cambelt turning the camshaft wheel


when I take the plugs out they appear dry, (no petrol on them)only 1 appears damp


these are just thoughts in my head
if head gasket had gone surely it would still fire but run rough ?
if timing out plugs should still be damp ?


its that the plugs aren't damp that ways on my mind,
my other cars are diesals so I can't test by taking leads off, and trying to start one of the other cars then looking at their plugs


today I plan to take rocker cover off, check the camshaft is intact,
then take off the belt covers to check the cam timing (do I have to jack the engine up to take off the engine mount, to get the covers off ??)

ballboy said:

not smelt the exhaust,
this is what I've got so far


All the leads give a spark to test spark plug
all the injectors are making a noise, (tick-tick-tick-etc)
the is petrol at the test point on the bar
I can see the cambelt turning the camshaft wheel


when I take the plugs out they appear dry, (no petrol on them)only 1 appears damp


these are just thoughts in my head
if head gasket had gone surely it would still fire but run rough ?
if timing out plugs should still be damp ?


its that the plugs aren't damp that ways on my mind,
my other cars are diesals so I can't test by taking leads off, and trying to start one of the other cars then looking at their plugs


today I plan to take rocker cover off, check the camshaft is intact,
then take off the belt covers to check the cam timing (do I have to jack the engine up to take off the engine mount, to get the covers off ??)

Click to expand...

On my 16v punto if i disconnect the cable from the injectors the car will start and run briefly. If you place a rag into the throttle body and tie it so it cannot be sucked in and put petrol on it you ought to also get it to run roughly.

Are you getting suction at the throttle body and blowing at the exhaust?. You will surely be smelling petrol coming from somewhere if the fuel is coming out of the injectors. If the valve timing is way out then petrol might not arrive in the cylinders but it has to go somewhere.

To get the bottom cover off you will need to support the engine under the sump which i have found is best done with blocks of wood once the engine is raised slightly as my trolley jack slowly deflates. On my car it is very difficult to get the engine mount out unless i lever the engine away from the side with a large bar.

Give me an hour or so and i will remove my injectors and turn the car over and video what happens if i can - its a bit of a job to take the covers off and on so relax for a while till i report back!

have not smelt any petrol, but was not trying to smell it (but it was windy yesterday so maybe blown on wind) I'm out this morning back by lunchtime, As I say can't understand if petrol is in fuel rail bar, and injectors clicking open/close, surely plugs should get wet, even if valves opening at wrong time ( ie timing out or camshaft broken)


forgot to add really big thanks for the help
as I've said before retired guy and my confidence is not as it was when I worked

only other thing I thought of last night in bed was engine earth
I've test leads with a spare plug on top of engine and connected to battery earth, if the engine earth was off or loose then spark at plugs in chambers would be poor, but would plug be wet from unburnt fuel ?

Tbh.
ithink you are best getting a compression test done.


If this has been run with a known water leak as mentioned 'o' ring
then the chances are the Headgasket Might be gone.
(worst case scenario.)


as said get a 'compression test done.
the kit is fairly cheap..or a mobile mech wouidnt charge much to do the test.

if I can't find why its not starting by checking the camshaft, and timing, or by putting earth on to the block, i'll go and buy a new compression tester, got an old one but its not got flexible pipes and its not long enough


but again my head is stuck in the not fuel on spark plugs when I take them out of the chambers, even if head gasket was gone, I must feel fuel on plugs ???

ballboy said:

if I can't find why its not starting by checking the camshaft, and timing, or by putting earth on to the block, i'll go and buy a new compression tester, got an old one but its not got flexible pipes and its not long enough


but again my head is stuck in the not fuel on spark plugs when I take them out of the chambers, even if head gasket was gone, I must feel fuel on plugs ???

Click to expand...

If the timing belt has slipped you might be blowing fuel out of the inlet manifold before it goes into the cylinder?? Ie exhaust now acts as inlet and inlet as exhaust.

I tested my cam sensor on the top of head and it has a high resistance across a few of the wires - did not think to test to ground! All back together now, But the car starts ok without it and turns on the engine management light.

Video of me fairly conclusively demonstrating what the injectors should be doing as you crank the engine! Hardest part was setting up the camera

[ame]http://youtu.be/iNwPAIKlaB4[/ame]

thanks for video, only small amount of fuel from your injectors, so I think the small amount from my test valve is right
taken engine mounting off to remove belt covers and thought, should have got a compression tester first, as now if timing ok will have to put all back together to do compression test and if test show cylinders low strip it again
just can in to get info on timing marks


just read Haynes manual, got the PDF version on computer, it says 2 different procedures depending on engine, how do I tell what one I should use, sorry to be so thick but reads manuals and stuff now not my strong suit

ballboy said:

thanks for video, only small amount of fuel from your injectors, so I think the small amount from my test valve is right
taken engine mounting off to remove belt covers and thought, should have got a compression tester first, as now if timing ok will have to put all back together to do compression test and if test show cylinders low strip it again
just can in to get info on timing marks

Click to expand...

I have started my car a few times with the covers off without the engine mount. Just make sure your sump is solidly supported with sufficiently wide blocks of wood and not in gear!

With the plugs in and turning the engine via the big nut visible inside the crankshaft pulley at the bottom - please have the battery securely disconnected when you do this - you are going to get a reasonable idea of what compression you have. It is really quite an effort to turn the car over. I use a few extensions to reach thru the wheel arch and then use one of those x shaped wheel braces so have two hands and can keep it steady and it is fairly tiring to turn the engine a couple of times thru the many compressions when you change the timing belt. Without the plugs it is much much easier. With the plugs in the air is only going to slowly leak out as you approach top dead centre unless something is wrong. Sometimes i have got so tired i have rested near TDC to let the air out before continuing. And all to avoid taking the plugs out!

I can't say it often enough, really big thanks to everyone, for your continuing help,
I live in sticks so not got anybody giving that support to do jobs


Timing looks right see photo's
notice this "yellow" cable hanging down back of engine looks dirty so think its not been connected to anything, I've lifted up to photo it
felt around but can't find any plugs for it to go into, car's not in a position for me to get under and have a look where it may fit (wonder if its for auto box or different engine/gearbox using same wiring harness)


I planning on putting it back on engine mounts to do compression test,

just been turning crank with racket, alternator belt off, turns easy, bit of push needed but not much,
looks like its a compression tester next thing to get.

ballboy said:

I can't say it often enough, really big thanks to everyone, for your continuing help,
I live in sticks so not got anybody giving that support to do jobs


Timing looks right see photo's
notice this "yellow" cable hanging down back of engine looks dirty so think its not been connected to anything, I've lifted up to photo it
felt around but can't find any plugs for it to go into, car's not in a position for me to get under and have a look where it may fit (wonder if its for auto box or different engine/gearbox using same wiring harness)


I planning on putting it back on engine mounts to do compression test,

Click to expand...

I have an unused plug in the same place and from memory it is a similar shape.

What is your information source for the timing? Your timing method is totally different to mine but from reading the forum you need that top marker plus TDC firing on number one or by using the harder to see notches looking thru the bell housing at the top - so between engine and gearbox there is an opening to see timing marks for the crankshaft.

According to this forum there are possibilities for a broken lug on the cam pulley which can mean the top timing mark has no meaning for your current timing and a new pulley is required. Dave said this and he is an expert on these cars. On my car the bolt alone holds the cam pulley against the camshaft and Dave assured me it never creates problems. Potentially a previous owner assumed that lug was not necessary for your car too if it was sufficiently tightened but Dave seems to know otherwise. @dave to come here to clarify please.

Can you confirm you have compression at almost top dead centre and it is noticeably relieved as you pass over TDC?

If your head gasket has gone with the cap off it is very likely you will see bubbles appearing in your reservoir as you turn the engine over or the level is going up and down.

I am still thinking about your lack of petrol. A pressure test would be useful - it is a pity that test point is so DIY unfriendly :bang:.

read Haynes, and my one has the marks on crank and camshaft, remember using those marks when I changed the belt about 18 months ago,


can't feel a great deal of pressure when turn crank with a racket,
just got a compression tester (£36 here, should have got Mrs to get it yesterday in Donny only £20 at screwfix)


for me its the lack of petrol on plugs that's got me

just done compression pressure test,
did test twice to ensure tester was screwed in cylinder ok
cy1 60
cy2 50
cy3 45
cy4 50


looks like its head off time, any tips re-head off job


I'll take off head and check wait is wrong before buying anything (gasket set etc)

ballboy said:

just done compression pressure test,
did test twice to ensure tester was screwed in cylinder ok
cy1 60
cy2 50
cy3 45
cy4 50


looks like its head off time, any tips re-head off job


I'll take off head and check wait is wrong before buying anything (gasket set etc)

Click to expand...

It must have got awfully hot to have ended up like that. I can only offer you the best of luck with what you find

just reading on here that head will need skiming and valves doing, re-con one is £160 on ebay, add to that cost of gasket kit, bolts, oil etc looks like at least £250 without anything else,
Car's done 114K 02 reg so not sure that is good use of £250

hang on - is it me or is that timing out on the cam?
I dont know if the image makes it look wrong or not

And tbh - its been a while since i've timed one up, but iirc it goes to the triangle cut out like such



vs what this should be like



If i am correct - this would confirm my suspicion the compression results are pure **** because the valves are open/ing on compression strokes

Ziggy

Another image showing the angle been on the triangle



Lets put it this way - even if im wrong, been the 8v its an interferance free engine, no damage done

Ziggy

the timing does look way out,belt must be to slack for it to jump,or tensioner is fubard..