Technical is revving the engine when its cold bad??
- Thread starter Hamada
- Start date
Currently reading:
Technical is revving the engine when its cold bad??
Yeah you shouldn't ever rev a cold engine much! As a one off it's unlikely to cause any damage unless something was weak or on it's way out anyway. The list of things it can effect is endless though.
Mechanics just don't give a damn about other peoples cars!
Especially wouldn't do it in the cold weather recently
Mechanics just don't give a damn about other peoples cars!
Especially wouldn't do it in the cold weather recently
Yup, its bad revving when cold. The oil hasn't reached all the bits it needs to reach so there is a severe chance of metal on metal contact.
Pistons will be a bit tight in the bores too.
Cheers
D
Pistons will be a bit tight in the bores too.
Cheers
D
if this did happen in may case, what symptoms that occurs as a result of what you said??
I mean does the engine sound gets louder?? oil loss ? power loss??
The increased amount of wear will not be found now without a complete strip down, it will have taken a few thousand miles of the eventual life of the engine.
Cheers
D
Cheers
D
i just wanna kill'em
i can't stop thinking about the fact that he's taken a few thousand mile of my motor
Last edited:
shaun200765
Member
i just wanna kill'em
i can't stop thinking about the fact that he's taken a few thousand mile of my motor
Hello mate
I totally understand your worries about the mechanic's ham fisted approach to his "testing" the engine but although the other guys have given you perfectly good advice I really wouldn't worry about it too much if you can.
Yes, he should have not done it and i'd feel the same as you but a one off like this will in all probability make no difference to your engine at all. I dont know the mileage of your motor but chances are its done a few thousand by now and every engine "finds" its own tolerances in the end...in other words it not going to be a tight new engine and that'll help no end.
The other thing of course is from the sounds of it the motor was being revved with the car in neutral and no load at all on the engine. This will certainly help, a free spinning engine is under much less stress than one being driven under load. From what I can gather, Fiat have made a peach of an engine and yes, its definitely bad form to rev one thats cold but I would bet you that Fiat themselves have tested the engine (as a type, not yours) by being far far rougher than any normal human being would ever do.
Without being rotten to Italians I just know that they all drive like nutters and Fiat would want to guarantee that their engines will not fail in the hands of a native
So...try not to worry mate, a one off like this probably wont make any difference at all. If you drove it like that every day for years then yes, it probably would start to complain but otherwise, you'll make yourself more poorly by worrying than the engine will ever get
Take it easy then bud
nope it wasn't in neutral
he just fixed a clutch cable and testing it by pressing clutch with first gear and after that took it for a spin and driving around like crazy
i began to think he did that on purpose , he wanted to damage my engine
it was a new engine mate the old engine has just been replaced by this one, and its not even been 2 month , and thats whats bathers me
i thought finally i made the perfect car and now this happens
I think i will either kill the guy or sell the car
Last edited:
Caravadossi
Established member
- Joined
- Mar 12, 2005
- Messages
- 1,510
- Points
- 249
Natural born car killers
If you've got a cold you can't do this. If you've got sinus problems or a history of ear, heart or circulation ailments you can't do it either. Not that driving a Ford Mondeo up a 4,000ft, one in 10 Swiss Alp is particularly dangerous. Even in searing heat, even towing a 1.8-ton six-berth caravan, the Mondeo's engine held its own in third gear at 3,000rpm and 40mph; it was not in the least bit scary. Strangely, however, a glance out of the side windows revealed not edelweiss and yodelling herdsmen, but inch-thick pressure glass and a massive steel airlock.
Five minutes previously I had been trying to start a reluctant Ford Fiesta in minus 20-degrees Centigrade with a freezing wind whipping frost off the bonnet. The Ford engineers thought it was high old entertainment - they seldom get such good spectator sport in their pressurised, temperature-controlled environmental laboratories at Ford's Dunton research centre in Essex. Mind you, the high security and the hour-long medical, including a blood test, that everyone has to go through before being allowed in the pressure chamber would put off all but the most determined sightseers.
Dunton is Ford's £4 billion torture camp for cars. A brutally oppressive place, where, for 35 years, seemingly mild-mannered engineers have been strapping motors on to electronic iron maidens to extract the truth. It's where an engine's screams go unheeded in sound-proofed cells and where, week in, week out, suspension systems creak and groan on brutal racks until, eventually, with a quiet sigh, they expire.
Torquemada-in-chief (sorry, product verification and testing manager) Richard Folkson led the lightning tour and pointed out that the most important influence on the development of new engines is emissions legislation. To meet ever-more stringent requirements, Dunton has the biggest emissions lab in Europe; just three years old and built at a cost of £25 million, with 15 rolling roads. Here Ford does the Vehicle Certification Agency testing for fuel consumption and CO2 emissions, although the latest requirements are so strict they have stopped using human drivers as they proved too variable and instead robots drive the cars through the 20-minute cycle of idling, steady speeds and acceleration, which is supposed to represent a mix of motorway and urban driving. "We are even considering scrubbing the air coming into the building, because the air blowing out over us from London is dirty enough to affect the results," says Richard. He claims that, having removed more than 90 per cent of exhaust pollutants since the 1970s, the latest legislative requirements are so marginal and expensive to meet that, "The authorities could have a much bigger effect by simply getting older vehicles off the streets. You would have to collect the exhaust pollutants from 68 Ford Focuses to match the pollutants from just one 1968 Ford Escort.”
The next set of buildings contains the environmental labs, where a car's heating and ventilation, air-conditioning and starting performance come under the spotlight. These hugely expensive test cells can be given negative pressure to simulate altitude and cooled to minus 40C or heated to more than 55C, with variable humidity to simulate driving in extreme conditions. They consume almost 10 megawatts of electricity a year (about 20 per cent of the local district's total consumption). "I'm quite keen on reducing that at the moment," says Richard, "as I have to pay for it." I mentally boggle at the chief engine inquisitor complaining about the electricity bill for his instruments of torture.
Not that these environmental test labs provide all the answers. "Before we go into production we always drive real cars in hot and cold territories, because there may be things we haven't been able to find in the labs," says Richard.
"The laboratories get the bugs out that much sooner and they allow test repeatability - in the real world you can't always get the same conditions day to day. Even so we haven't yet got such confidence in our testing that we don't need to do real-world testing. I think we will always have that final sign-off."
Dunton represents only about half Ford of Europe's research and development facilities and deals with Fiesta-based cars (Ka, Puma, StreetKa, Fusion) and the Transit - Richard is in charge of about 1,500 test engineers and technicians. The other half of the 10,000 people involved in Ford of Europe's product development work at Merkenich near Cologne in Germany and deal with the Mondeo and Focus. There are also about 350 people working at Ford's giant test track at Lommel in Belgium, which also, incidentally, provides the base data from which most of the Dunton test cycles are derived.
To ensure the cars at Dunton meet every abuse that could conceivably be inflicted on them by customers, Richard also runs a fleet of 350 fully instrumented cars permanently on test around Europe with police forces, hire companies and courier firms. His team also gets feedback from service dealers and the breakdown services and the data is used to modify test cycles. "No one is going to admit to abusing their cars, but our instruments collect data from the worst, most abusive drivers," says Richard. "We develop our cars for the 95th percentile customer in size and driving standards, so we are looking for the worst things our customers do."
The result is some strangely named tests for the 134 engine dynamometers at Dunton - the biggest engine test facility in the world. Like the RAC patrolman's test (aka the German autobahn workers' test). Patrol men and autobahn workers leave their diesel Transits idling for hours while they work, which used to result in severe carbonisation of the engine because the exhaust gas recirculation (EGR) sooted up the cylinder head. Ford's test procedures were adapted to take account of this prolonged idling and as a result the engine management was modified to cut off the EGR system after a short time of idling.
Similarly, testing of the new Fiesta showed that finely atomised rain water (such as that formed by lorries on wet motorways) could leave the engine reverting to emergency "limp-home" mode. Ford engineers noticed that the Peugeot/Citroen test cycle represented these conditions more accurately and adapted their test accordingly.
What seems staggering is just how badly people treat their cars and how seriously Ford takes such issues. "You can't de-rate engines like the commercial diesel industry, because people want power," says one engineer. "We can't go back to the customer and say, 'You shouldn't use your car like that'. We have to design our cars to do what the customers do with them. Why should we expect them to have mechanical sympathy?" Richard adds: "We expect our customers to abuse our cars. Remember, many of our drivers don't own the vehicle."
No one will identify the drunken Eskimo concerned, but repeatedly cooling engines to minus 20C then starting them, revving the nuts off them and stopping them before they get properly warm is a regular test cycle.
According to engine test cell manager Dave Nightingale, this "deep thermal shock test" (the drunken Eskimo test) seeks out an engine's propensity to wreck its cylinder head gasket and crack around the valve seats - "You can get similar effects if you repeatedly come off a motorway at 100mph and immediately turn off the engine," he says. "It's really not a good thing to do."
Or what about the district nurses' cycle? This involves repeatedly starting an engine from cold, idling it, running it for short periods, but never letting it get properly warmed up. The more sophisticated bakers' delivery van cycle adds cooler, early morning start temperatures to stress the engine further.
Richard and David both attest that one of the hardest tests is the boy racers' cycle, which involves revving an engine from idle to maximum revs and back for hour after hour. "If they survive that, our customers will find they are reliable," says Richard.
I'm left thinking only a white van driver could be that mechanically unsympathetic, but Richard assures me that some people actually do this to their cars. His engineers grin horribly when they scream a frost-covered engine on the dynamometer; they seem so happy in their work. An old favourite at Dunton used to be the "death rattle", where engineers would simply turn off the cooling water from a speeding engine and leave it to melt; they seem strangely sad that they don't do that any more.
When pressed, David cites the standard Ford sign-off test as the hardest; 250 hours of non-stop revving at half way between peak torque and maximum power. When the Boreham competition department developed the raucous engine for the Puma Racing model, chief engineer Phillip Dunabin was shocked when he learned his choice of camshafts and fuelling meant the engine would have to do this at peak revolutions; it passed.
Diesel engines bring their own special problems, particularly that of runaway, where the engine starts running on its lubrication oil, bypassing the governor and over-revving uncontrollably. Like all diesel engine makers, Ford ensures drivers will be able to switch their diesel engine off with comprehensive testing of the worst-case scenarios. These tests include over-filling the sump by 100 per cent, tilting the engine by 30 degrees in each direction and simulating complete turbocharger failure and worn-out piston rings.
Finally I ask about a Telegraph Motoring readers' favourite: starting an engine to move the car out of the garage, stopping it, cleaning the car and then starting it again to drive back into the garage. Richard winces: "Ah, the pensioner syndrome," he says. "I wouldn't advise that, it eventually fouls the plugs, it leaves moisture and acid deposits all over the cylinders and exhaust and if you do it habitually, it will kill the car."
So how far should we expect our Fords to run? Richard is guarded and talks about the Focus's recent success in the German TUV long-term tests, proving itself one of the most reliable cars over three years. "You've got to remember we are talking about the worst-case user," he says, "but we are looking at a life of at least 150,000 miles from our engines.
So have they any tips for making our engines last? Missing services is "highly inadvisable" in these days of once-a-year, or 12,000-mile service intervals, although it seems almost counter-intuitive that the quality of the oil you use is less important than that of the fuel, especially when it comes to diesel engines. "We are very conservative in our calibrations to protect the engine, but if you continually fill with the worst-case fuel in Britain, you will find problems," said one engineer.
Continuous idling and revving when cold are engine killers, as are short runs where the engine never gets warmed up.
It might also be best to avoid lending your car to drunken Eskimos, boy racers, RAC patrolmen, district nurses and clean-car-obsessed pensioners, although from what I've seen, the car killers you really want to avoid are engineers from Dunton.
Telegraph/motoring 2002/08/10
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/4757448/Natural-born-car-killers.html
If you've got a cold you can't do this. If you've got sinus problems or a history of ear, heart or circulation ailments you can't do it either. Not that driving a Ford Mondeo up a 4,000ft, one in 10 Swiss Alp is particularly dangerous. Even in searing heat, even towing a 1.8-ton six-berth caravan, the Mondeo's engine held its own in third gear at 3,000rpm and 40mph; it was not in the least bit scary. Strangely, however, a glance out of the side windows revealed not edelweiss and yodelling herdsmen, but inch-thick pressure glass and a massive steel airlock.
Five minutes previously I had been trying to start a reluctant Ford Fiesta in minus 20-degrees Centigrade with a freezing wind whipping frost off the bonnet. The Ford engineers thought it was high old entertainment - they seldom get such good spectator sport in their pressurised, temperature-controlled environmental laboratories at Ford's Dunton research centre in Essex. Mind you, the high security and the hour-long medical, including a blood test, that everyone has to go through before being allowed in the pressure chamber would put off all but the most determined sightseers.
Dunton is Ford's £4 billion torture camp for cars. A brutally oppressive place, where, for 35 years, seemingly mild-mannered engineers have been strapping motors on to electronic iron maidens to extract the truth. It's where an engine's screams go unheeded in sound-proofed cells and where, week in, week out, suspension systems creak and groan on brutal racks until, eventually, with a quiet sigh, they expire.
Torquemada-in-chief (sorry, product verification and testing manager) Richard Folkson led the lightning tour and pointed out that the most important influence on the development of new engines is emissions legislation. To meet ever-more stringent requirements, Dunton has the biggest emissions lab in Europe; just three years old and built at a cost of £25 million, with 15 rolling roads. Here Ford does the Vehicle Certification Agency testing for fuel consumption and CO2 emissions, although the latest requirements are so strict they have stopped using human drivers as they proved too variable and instead robots drive the cars through the 20-minute cycle of idling, steady speeds and acceleration, which is supposed to represent a mix of motorway and urban driving. "We are even considering scrubbing the air coming into the building, because the air blowing out over us from London is dirty enough to affect the results," says Richard. He claims that, having removed more than 90 per cent of exhaust pollutants since the 1970s, the latest legislative requirements are so marginal and expensive to meet that, "The authorities could have a much bigger effect by simply getting older vehicles off the streets. You would have to collect the exhaust pollutants from 68 Ford Focuses to match the pollutants from just one 1968 Ford Escort.”
The next set of buildings contains the environmental labs, where a car's heating and ventilation, air-conditioning and starting performance come under the spotlight. These hugely expensive test cells can be given negative pressure to simulate altitude and cooled to minus 40C or heated to more than 55C, with variable humidity to simulate driving in extreme conditions. They consume almost 10 megawatts of electricity a year (about 20 per cent of the local district's total consumption). "I'm quite keen on reducing that at the moment," says Richard, "as I have to pay for it." I mentally boggle at the chief engine inquisitor complaining about the electricity bill for his instruments of torture.
Not that these environmental test labs provide all the answers. "Before we go into production we always drive real cars in hot and cold territories, because there may be things we haven't been able to find in the labs," says Richard.
"The laboratories get the bugs out that much sooner and they allow test repeatability - in the real world you can't always get the same conditions day to day. Even so we haven't yet got such confidence in our testing that we don't need to do real-world testing. I think we will always have that final sign-off."
Dunton represents only about half Ford of Europe's research and development facilities and deals with Fiesta-based cars (Ka, Puma, StreetKa, Fusion) and the Transit - Richard is in charge of about 1,500 test engineers and technicians. The other half of the 10,000 people involved in Ford of Europe's product development work at Merkenich near Cologne in Germany and deal with the Mondeo and Focus. There are also about 350 people working at Ford's giant test track at Lommel in Belgium, which also, incidentally, provides the base data from which most of the Dunton test cycles are derived.
To ensure the cars at Dunton meet every abuse that could conceivably be inflicted on them by customers, Richard also runs a fleet of 350 fully instrumented cars permanently on test around Europe with police forces, hire companies and courier firms. His team also gets feedback from service dealers and the breakdown services and the data is used to modify test cycles. "No one is going to admit to abusing their cars, but our instruments collect data from the worst, most abusive drivers," says Richard. "We develop our cars for the 95th percentile customer in size and driving standards, so we are looking for the worst things our customers do."
The result is some strangely named tests for the 134 engine dynamometers at Dunton - the biggest engine test facility in the world. Like the RAC patrolman's test (aka the German autobahn workers' test). Patrol men and autobahn workers leave their diesel Transits idling for hours while they work, which used to result in severe carbonisation of the engine because the exhaust gas recirculation (EGR) sooted up the cylinder head. Ford's test procedures were adapted to take account of this prolonged idling and as a result the engine management was modified to cut off the EGR system after a short time of idling.
Similarly, testing of the new Fiesta showed that finely atomised rain water (such as that formed by lorries on wet motorways) could leave the engine reverting to emergency "limp-home" mode. Ford engineers noticed that the Peugeot/Citroen test cycle represented these conditions more accurately and adapted their test accordingly.
What seems staggering is just how badly people treat their cars and how seriously Ford takes such issues. "You can't de-rate engines like the commercial diesel industry, because people want power," says one engineer. "We can't go back to the customer and say, 'You shouldn't use your car like that'. We have to design our cars to do what the customers do with them. Why should we expect them to have mechanical sympathy?" Richard adds: "We expect our customers to abuse our cars. Remember, many of our drivers don't own the vehicle."
No one will identify the drunken Eskimo concerned, but repeatedly cooling engines to minus 20C then starting them, revving the nuts off them and stopping them before they get properly warm is a regular test cycle.
According to engine test cell manager Dave Nightingale, this "deep thermal shock test" (the drunken Eskimo test) seeks out an engine's propensity to wreck its cylinder head gasket and crack around the valve seats - "You can get similar effects if you repeatedly come off a motorway at 100mph and immediately turn off the engine," he says. "It's really not a good thing to do."
Or what about the district nurses' cycle? This involves repeatedly starting an engine from cold, idling it, running it for short periods, but never letting it get properly warmed up. The more sophisticated bakers' delivery van cycle adds cooler, early morning start temperatures to stress the engine further.
Richard and David both attest that one of the hardest tests is the boy racers' cycle, which involves revving an engine from idle to maximum revs and back for hour after hour. "If they survive that, our customers will find they are reliable," says Richard.
I'm left thinking only a white van driver could be that mechanically unsympathetic, but Richard assures me that some people actually do this to their cars. His engineers grin horribly when they scream a frost-covered engine on the dynamometer; they seem so happy in their work. An old favourite at Dunton used to be the "death rattle", where engineers would simply turn off the cooling water from a speeding engine and leave it to melt; they seem strangely sad that they don't do that any more.
When pressed, David cites the standard Ford sign-off test as the hardest; 250 hours of non-stop revving at half way between peak torque and maximum power. When the Boreham competition department developed the raucous engine for the Puma Racing model, chief engineer Phillip Dunabin was shocked when he learned his choice of camshafts and fuelling meant the engine would have to do this at peak revolutions; it passed.
Diesel engines bring their own special problems, particularly that of runaway, where the engine starts running on its lubrication oil, bypassing the governor and over-revving uncontrollably. Like all diesel engine makers, Ford ensures drivers will be able to switch their diesel engine off with comprehensive testing of the worst-case scenarios. These tests include over-filling the sump by 100 per cent, tilting the engine by 30 degrees in each direction and simulating complete turbocharger failure and worn-out piston rings.
Finally I ask about a Telegraph Motoring readers' favourite: starting an engine to move the car out of the garage, stopping it, cleaning the car and then starting it again to drive back into the garage. Richard winces: "Ah, the pensioner syndrome," he says. "I wouldn't advise that, it eventually fouls the plugs, it leaves moisture and acid deposits all over the cylinders and exhaust and if you do it habitually, it will kill the car."
So how far should we expect our Fords to run? Richard is guarded and talks about the Focus's recent success in the German TUV long-term tests, proving itself one of the most reliable cars over three years. "You've got to remember we are talking about the worst-case user," he says, "but we are looking at a life of at least 150,000 miles from our engines.
So have they any tips for making our engines last? Missing services is "highly inadvisable" in these days of once-a-year, or 12,000-mile service intervals, although it seems almost counter-intuitive that the quality of the oil you use is less important than that of the fuel, especially when it comes to diesel engines. "We are very conservative in our calibrations to protect the engine, but if you continually fill with the worst-case fuel in Britain, you will find problems," said one engineer.
Continuous idling and revving when cold are engine killers, as are short runs where the engine never gets warmed up.
It might also be best to avoid lending your car to drunken Eskimos, boy racers, RAC patrolmen, district nurses and clean-car-obsessed pensioners, although from what I've seen, the car killers you really want to avoid are engineers from Dunton.
Telegraph/motoring 2002/08/10
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/4757448/Natural-born-car-killers.html
KieveBuh
Member
i dno y ur worryin so much m8 it wud **** me off but i doubt it done anything i had a m8 who thrashed the tits off his car all the time and it lasted ages
- Joined
- Aug 9, 2006
- Messages
- 767
- Points
- 114
Don't worry so much, just find a different garage.
shaun200765
Member
Exactly
The mechanic who did it was a prick for doing so but your engine's going to be fine honest Try not to worry dude
- Joined
- Sep 14, 2009
- Messages
- 19,492
- Points
- 3,294
The mechanic is a bit of a t**t but the OP needn't worry so much the engine will be ok.
The post about revving the engine light is on the button, clutch down or in neutral the engine wasn't under load so while it will have been spinning fast the bearing loads will be low. No harm has been done.
Its would be far worse to (as many driver do) drive away and change up at very low revs on a cold engine. That puts heavy loads on cylinder walls and bearings all with thick cold oil that's not circulating at its best. Medium revs on a gentle throttle is best until its warmed up.
NEVER slog an engine at low revs but dont worry too much about revs.
Regarding the Italians, those in the North drive better than Brits especially regarding how they treat motorcyclists. They drive smoothly, make good progress and dont brake at every bump in the road. At the other extreme, I saw no more nutter fast drivers over there than in UK. And those I did could actually handle their cars unlike so many UK boy racers.
Rome and Naples on the other hand do drive harder but everyone does the same and while they dont worry about parking knocks there seem to be few real accidents.
The post about revving the engine light is on the button, clutch down or in neutral the engine wasn't under load so while it will have been spinning fast the bearing loads will be low. No harm has been done.
Its would be far worse to (as many driver do) drive away and change up at very low revs on a cold engine. That puts heavy loads on cylinder walls and bearings all with thick cold oil that's not circulating at its best. Medium revs on a gentle throttle is best until its warmed up.
NEVER slog an engine at low revs but dont worry too much about revs.
Regarding the Italians, those in the North drive better than Brits especially regarding how they treat motorcyclists. They drive smoothly, make good progress and dont brake at every bump in the road. At the other extreme, I saw no more nutter fast drivers over there than in UK. And those I did could actually handle their cars unlike so many UK boy racers.
Rome and Naples on the other hand do drive harder but everyone does the same and while they dont worry about parking knocks there seem to be few real accidents.
Last edited:
