This is the situation.

I drove 60 miles down the motorway to my dads works to change the engine over because i had a worn out cam shaft on my engine.

I drove down with no problems at all, and used only £5 worth of fuel so clearly no problems.

We took the engine out swapped the components over from my original engine, sensors, leads, plugs etc.

Fitted the 2nd hand engine which i knew was a good engine as i herd it running before. It was from the same year, same model and even same colour car.

Fitted the second engine, connected all the sensors and timed it up correctly with a new belt and tensioner. Doubled checked everything and started the car. It started on the button and ran for a good few seconds without a problem.

I turned the engine off, checked the engine level oil, restarted the engine and ran ok for a few seconds. Then it developed a slight mis-fire and ran quite un-even.

Turned the engine off, doubled checked the timing which was spot on. The tension on the belt felt the same as before.

We ran it again, it started fine though it had a mis-fire. The longer it ran, the worse it became. No matter what we did to the engine we couldn't eliminate the problem.

It started to puff out white smoke quite badly. So we suspected it had a internal mechanical fault. With that it started getting more and more juddery and cut out on us (After being running for around 1 hour, whilst trying to eliminate faults)

With that we fitted my original engine (Which we knew would work as i drove down using it) using my original components. The engine started fine then developed a mis-fire and again gradually got worse the longer it ran. It then conked out on us (just like the engine i put in earlier)

We don't know why this is happening. All the plugs are fine, new HT leads and coil pack is fine too. The alternator belt is nice and tight with a new alternator and we again checked all sensors.

Can someone tell us what we're doing wrong?

Thanks

Which car is it?

Any warning lights?

White smoke might indicate a blown head gasket: compression test.

Otherwise, back to basics. Pull one lead off in turn to isolate the cylinders that are not firing (the engine won't respond).

Problem (with old engine) is likely to be a simple HT leak/coil issue: run the car in the dark, look for blue flashes.

If MPI, phonic re-learn.

When it conks out check for spark at plugs, fuel past the injector(s). If neither, our old friend the TDC sensor.

This run on twin coil packs/waisted spark system?

If so for two too be playing up my money is on a coil pack, but I could be wrong.

Most Easterly Pandas said:

This run on twin coil packs/waisted spark system?

If so for two too be playing up my money is on a coil pack, but I could be wrong.

Click to expand...

I highly doubt its the coil packs as i've tried both, and i have the same problems.

I've also took the plugs out and turned the engine and they all spark to (incase a faulty wire somewhere)

Its a Mk1 8V S reg ('97 iirc?)

I had also disconnected the ecu + batterie over night to allow it to re-set but it had no effect.

There were NO warning lights (which i thought was odd). When the car runs juddery the interior light goes bright and dim, thus telling me it's a electrical problem?

The white smoke i could only guess was all the old, crap oil being burnt up as i did have the engine on its side to clean up manifold gaskets etc before applying my original manifold.

I've taken out all the plugs one by one and put them back in one by one while the engine was on (juddering) but this made NO difference at all.

Should i be able to hear the fuel pump priming when i turn on the ignition?

And a white fuse, under the bonnet at the bulk head of the car, near the SPI. Dose that control fuel? If so i can hear it clicking over sometimes.

My other concern is. There was a black sealed box at the front right (Drivers side) just behind the head light, next to the rad. I turned this upside down, and lent it on the wing when removing and replacing the engines to give some more space. I've checked the connections etc and all are good but i believe this controls fuel vapour? It has also charcoal in too? Would me tipping it up side down effected anything inside this sealed black box?

As I say, when it conks out, check for fuel past the injector and spark. Obviously it's firing the rest of the time or you'd not have a misfire!

The interior light may indicate a poor earth. Try a single jump lead from battery -ive to somewhere near the coil pack.

The white box is the master relay, clicking is not unexpected.

You should briefly hear the fuelpump.

The box thing is the charcoal cannister. Check you've not disturbed the connections to the solenoid. Otherwise, unlikely to be a problem.

Check -- there's a picture in the Cinq/Sei Guides section -- that the connections to the TB are in place.

My money -- the misfire is obviously random -- is on the TDC sensor. When the fault is intermittent, you get a random misfire. When it becomes semi-permanent, the engine cuts. That's why you need to check for fuel past the injector and spark when it dies.

fingers99 said:

As I say, when it conks out, check for fuel past the injector and spark. Obviously it's firing the rest of the time or you'd not have a misfire!

The interior light may indicate a poor earth. Try a single jump lead from battery -ive to somewhere near the coil pack.

The white box is the master relay, clicking is not unexpected.

You should briefly hear the fuelpump.

The box thing is the charcoal cannister. Check you've not disturbed the connections to the solenoid. Otherwise, unlikely to be a problem.

Check -- there's a picture in the Cinq/Sei Guides section -- that the connections to the TB are in place.

My money -- the misfire is obviously random -- is on the TDC sensor. When the fault is intermittent, you get a random misfire. When it becomes semi-permanent, the engine cuts. That's why you need to check for fuel past the injector and spark when it dies.

Click to expand...

Its not coil pack or any TDC sensors as we tried the new sensors then we put back the original sensors as we knew they worked. Because i dorve the car less then 24 hours earlier.

Like i said. both engines decided to run for a while before they chose to mis fire.

Its only now that i put my original engine back in and start the car again it ran a bit juddery after a few minutes of smooth running. Which makes me think its a electrical fault somewhere as i can NOT hear the fuel pump priming when the ignition is on (And where is the pump located?) and i can hear a white click from that white relay.

All earth's have been doubled too.

Thanks

Fuel pump is in tank. There is only one TDC sensor. The wiring to them is shockingly delicate.

If it's only running rough, try re-setting the ECU. Which ECU is it, BTW?

Make a check list, run through it. It'll be something really silly. Make no assumptions.

fingers99 said:

Fuel pump is in tank. There is only one TDC sensor. The wiring to them is shockingly delicate.

If it's only running rough, try re-setting the ECU. Which ECU is it, BTW?

Make a check list, run through it. It'll be something really silly. Make no assumptions.

Click to expand...

Its in the tank Great!. Now i might have 5 gallons of fuel to drain

The ECU (Which i can only assume is the problem) is Magnet Marell - IAW 16F .E3

Do you need any more information?

If it was the ECU. Dose the fuel pump need a signal from the ECU to pump fuel fumes into the vaporiser (black charcole box) then take the reading to start the car?

if it was a spiked ECU, is it deffently a new one? Are there any tricks to see if it is a bad ECU.

Thanks All!!

Fuel pump relay shouldn't be clicking all the time- when ignition is switched on it should click 'on' and prime the pump for a few seconds then click 'off'. With the engine running it should click 'on' and stay on until you switch off.

If it's clicking more often, then it indicates an earth issue at the ECU or the relay connector block.

That ECU is nigh on bulletproof. They simply don't do wrong.

No need to drain the tank -- access to the pump is through the top, but check for 12v to it. Again, they're incredibly reliable.

There's a Haynes on rapidshare.

The pump will only prime if the pressure in the system is low, so I'd not expect that to be an issue. May be a red herring.

As far as I can tell, the charcoal cannister is pretty irrelevant. I'd discount it. People have blocked off the lines to it from the TB and no ill effects. Wierdness can occur if the connectionsare on wrong, though.

You might try new relay, but I'd ask why -- if that's what's happening -- it should decide to work sometimes: you're obviously getting fuel, sometimes.

I'd go for wrong connections to TB or TDC sensor.

fingers99 said:

That ECU is nigh on bulletproof. They simply don't do wrong.

No need to drain the tank -- access to the pump is through the top, but check for 12v to it. Again, they're incredibly reliable.

There's a Haynes on rapidshare.

The pump will only prime if the pressure in the system is low, so I'd not expect that to be an issue. May be a red herring.

As far as I can tell, the charcoal cannister is pretty irrelevant. I'd discount it. People have blocked off the lines to it from the TB and no ill effects. Wierdness can occur if the connectionsare on wrong, though.

You might try new relay, but I'd ask why -- if that's what's happening -- it should decide to work sometimes: you're obviously getting fuel, sometimes.

I'd go for wrong connections to TB or TDC sensor.

Click to expand...

Thank you very much, your being a great help.

As the car is Now 65 miles away in Heathrow, Its not a simple case of go out side and check.

The car will be towed home on Wednesday i think so i can double check then.

You say about the TDC sensor. I've replaced this with the old one, then resorted back to my original one as i knew it would work. Are they fragile?

And as for the ECU, the possibility of it being spiked are slim?

I'll check the picture in the Cinq/Sei Guides section -- that the connections to the TB are in place.

I like DanyBoy's post, #9 too. Easy peasy way to check that out is run a single jump lead from battery negative to the coil pack body.

I'd do that before trying the TDC sensor. (An earth strap is cheaper than a TDC sensor.)

It's the wiring rather than the sensor body that seems delicate -- they just don't like being disturbed.

I've yet to (touch wood) see a spiked SPI ECU. The only thing I think that's likely to wreck it is attatching the earth lead from a welder very close to it and sparking up.

fingers99 said:

The pump will only prime if the pressure in the system is low, so I'd not expect that to be an issue. May be a red herring.

Click to expand...

Once the engine is running, the pump runs continuously. There's no fuel pressure sensor to tell it to cut in and out.

fingers99 said:

You might try new relay, but I'd ask why -- if that's what's happening -- it should decide to work sometimes: you're obviously getting fuel, sometimes.

Click to expand...

Maybe the bad earth is causing a high resistance, causing heat build-up over time, which leads to higher resistance, leading to a higher heat build-up, etc, eventually leading to an open circuit.

dannyboy- either lift the rear seat and remove the cover to listen to the pump or monitor the fuel pump relay to see if the pump stops before the engine runs rough or cuts out. Be aware that once the engine stalls, the pump will normally stop running a second or so later anyway. You just need to establish if the pump is stopping as a cause of the problem, or because of it.

fingers99 - I cant find the guide to the T/B on the Sinc/Chinq forum.

I'll be changing the earth thats connected to the ECU and move it to its under a bolt on the body, so the earth is not touching the ECU.

I'll also check tb and manifold connections again (With the guide)

Thanks all!!!!

Expect another post from me in the next 48 hours that its not solved anything lol.

Earth touching ECU is right. I'd just run a supplementary earth to the wing, but undo, clean up and vaseline the existing earth while you're at it.

The diagram is here.

could be the injector, sounds similar to the problem i had with mine,
https://www.fiatforum.com/punto/220234-1999-mk1-60s-idle-misfire-problem.html?p=2345044

I'll check the injectors and all earth's. Like i say, i'm using my original SPI / T.B what ever you would like to call it so i can only see it got damaged when we took it out of the car and may had got knocked on the floor.

One thing i did notice in the SPI was it was covered in petrol and oil. I'm not sure if that makes any odd's?

On my old car, Citreon Saxo. The SPI was very very clean inside, looked like new.

I'll then change my TDC sensor and try again!

If that fails, I'll have to get it to a garage and for them to hook it up on a ECU reader to read the codes? (£££££££££)

Many thanks all!

Also i've seen some threads saying "use the red key"?

What is the red key for? And how many times can it be used?

fingers99 said:

Earth touching ECU is right. I'd just run a supplementary earth to the wing, but undo, clean up and vaseline the existing earth while you're at it.

The diagram is here.

Click to expand...

I realised this morning that my original SPI and my doner engine (with a SPI on) are quite different. The connectors are in different places.

I'll take my original engine out (again) and put the 2nd hand engine back in (again). I'll then check all sensors etc.

If that fails and i toe it home, would getting someone out to do a check on my ECU be suitable? (Would the ECU hold the error codes?)

i there me radiotor is leaking near my oil filter any way i can stop the leak