Hi,

My daughter has a problem with the dipped beams on her owned-from-new and now about 50k miles Punto.

About a month ago she was heading south on the M1 in Notts and both dipped beams failed.

It was checked the next day at out local FIAT service garage and all was found to be 'ok'. They relieved her of about £64 and fitted 2 new bulbs. (Would have done it myself but there was no time to fit the job in because she needed the car .... and I also discovered the passenger side access problem ...)

Today, heading north on the M1 from London and both dips failed again.

I have not looked at since she got home but assume the bulbs may have failed once more.

Everything else is working OK.

So it's off to the service agent again tomorrow but if anyone can offer some suggestions about the cause of the problem I would be very grateful since monthly recurrence is going to be very inconvenient and expensive not to mention dangerous!

I assume it is pure coincidence that the M1 features in both failures?

Thanks in advance for any help you can offer.

Grant

when do they fail just random or when she goes from full beam back to dip? the second one is quite common an you just flick back to full then on to dip again and it all is fine

dave said:

when do they fail just random or when she goes from full beam back to dip? the second one is quite common an you just flick back to full then on to dip again and it all is fine

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Not sure. She thinks that yesterday one failed at some point followed shortly by the other. I don't think main beam came into it.

I took the O/S bulb out just now and it looks like it has indeed blown again. So it would seem to be some sort of electrical problem that only affects the dip bulbs. Sides and Main are working fine.

The car is absolutely standard except for an alternative stereo and speakers (fitted about 4 years ago) and an alarm system (fitted about 3 years ago). No electrical problems experienced until the last month or so.

Thanks for the reply.


Grant

alternator maybe kicking out more than it should

should be 14.2 volts engine running

but i would have thought this would affect other things too

maybe the dealer is saving money by fitting cheap bulbs instead of fiat packaged ones

Hi littlepip17 and thanks for the response.

So I have asked 3 people today by phone and one friend who is a commercial vehicle electrician who said he will ask around at work;

In the frame are:

1. Alternator - suggested by the service agent.

The just failed bulbs are Lucas so not really cheap?

2. Main dealer said it could be 'almost anything' but yes the bulbs do tend to fail in pairs since when one goes the other gets extra load ..! Do Euro NCAP do negative scores for stupid designs?

3. An independent suggested that it is just possible that a bulb was handled during fitting, failed and took the other one out.

It's beginning to sound like this question may have a thousand answers ...

I have fitted 2 "Ring" brand replacements H1's. They may well be not very good, I don't know, but if they are going to blow again in the next month before the car is sold I would rather be replacing bulbs at less than £10 a throw.

As for the passenger side problem I discovered that I could get at everything by simply removing the 3 obvious and visible retaining bolts for the headlight unit on the N/S and making a little more space. That way I could wiggle the cover out from the back, remove old and fit new bulb, refit cover, attempt to get something that looks like an alignment device somewhere close to whatever it is supposed to fit against in the inner wing and then refit the 3 bolts.

Seemed to work well enough. The bolts looked like they realigned exactly where they were before removal so hopefully headlight alignment will be good enough.

I may soon find out if the problem is persisting - it's out on the roads tonight.

I'm still interested in further suggestions. If anyone does know of a possibly identifiable problem I am keen to know since we don't want to sell it on with an obvious and fixable fault related to lights. On the other hand, now that we are aware that failing in pairs is usual rather than rare, the second failure, which was definitely NOT a fail at exactly the same time situation, may have a simple and non-worrying cause and attributable to bad luck.

So anything you have will be gratefully read!

Thanks for the responses so far.


Grant

2. is not true

anyone with any knowledge about electronics will tell you this

it's basically like telling you if a bulb blows in your house they should all blow

if there is a lose connection in the circuit somewhere the power fluctuation will cause premature bulb failure

this is also the reason alternators do it

touching halogen bulbs will certainly do it

and another possibility is the lamp unit is not offering enough cooling for the bulbs maybe some vents are blocked or may be the main beams are too higher wattage and are causing excess heat check all other bulbs are the correct wattage

littlepip17 said:

2. is not true

anyone with any knowledge about electronics will tell you this

it's basically like telling you if a bulb blows in your house they should all blow

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That's exactly what I thought but apparently a couple of Fiat models are prone to this or so I was told - sort of confirmed by another conversation with someone else as well.

littlepip17 said:

if there is a lose connection in the circuit somewhere the power fluctuation will cause premature bulb failure

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Indeed. Nothing obvious on the visible parts of the loom sadly and undertaking a search for the needle in the haystack could be very expensive until the problem (if there is one) becomes more evident ...

littlepip17 said:

and another possibility is the lamp unit is not offering enough cooling for the bulbs maybe some vents are blocked or may be the main beams are too higher wattage and are causing excess heat check all other bulbs are the correct wattage

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Nothing has ever been changed from new. I don;t think main beam would be used a lot. The entire system is standard, basic Punto, no spots.

She does tend to leave the light switch on at all times. I'm wondering if something is aging after 5 years and spiking at start up just enough to take the H1s out but not the side and tail bulbs. As far as I can recall the only bulb changes have been 1 tail and two brake bulbs - one each side. There may have been another rear at service or MOT (to boost the invoice no doubt.)

I have suggested that she changes her habits and actually turns the lights off when parking ... just in case it helps.

Thanks for the input.



Grant

grantp said:

She does tend to leave the light switch on at all times. I'm wondering if something is aging after 5 years and spiking at start up just enough to take the H1s out but not the side and tail bulbs. As far as I can recall the only bulb changes have been 1 tail and two brake bulbs - one each side. There may have been another rear at service or MOT (to boost the invoice no doubt.)

I have suggested that she changes her habits and actually turns the lights off when parking ... just in case it helps.

Thanks for the input.

Grant

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your right to make sure the lights ae off before starting the engine as this can easily blow the bulbs and shortens there life

I also have/had h1 bulbs on mine (now have hid) and have had two bulbs blow this year, i've heard h1's don;t last as long as h4 bulbs have had a set of these for over 7yrs and there still going strong

Hi toad101,

I'm not sure why she leaves the lights on but apparently she has been doing it for 5 years ... Something to do with the 'follow me home' facility?

The first H1's lasted from about April 02 until 31st October 2007, which is not too bad although she has not had 4 bulbs blow since 31st October in total - the originals and now two replacements.

I did hear a non-Fiat story about random bouts of poor engine running being caused by screen washer jets and just a few years ago I had a VX Omega that consumed batteries regularly, a problem that several visits to the dealer failed to diagnose correctly but that I eventually traced to front bulkhead drain holes and the location of the major components of the alarm system.

Thanks for the input.


Grant

Hi,

tell her she does not need to leave the lights on to use the "follow me home" function, it works with the stalk set to off as well! Have you put a multimeter at the bulb holder to see if the voltage is fluctuating, or tested the alternator to see if the regulator is working correctly?

Cheers,
Alan

Hi Alan,

I was sort of guessing about the follow-me-home thing. I could try asking but not sure if I will get a logical answer. I can't think of any regular circumstances for which f-m-h would be useful to her anyway.

No, I have not checked the voltage. I would hope that the service agent did that when asked to investigate the first time they blew.

Maybe not.

Yesterday I was more concerned about getting the new bulbs fitted in between rain showers and before it got dark.

If they go again before the car is sold on in a few weeks time I will check. Otherwise I think the chances of the car being made available to me to play with are very slim, certainly in the hours of daylight! (I vaguely recall being younger once and having a social life ... )



Thanks for the input!


Grant

It's an old one, but there is a Service Bulletin available to the Fiat Techs regarding " Dipped beam bulb burnout" on Mk2 Punto's, though I can't check the details as the server seems to be down at the mo.

D4nny8oy said:

It's an old one, but there is a Service Bulletin available to the Fiat Techs regarding " Dipped beam bulb burnout" on Mk2 Punto's, though I can't check the details as the server seems to be down at the mo.

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Danny,

Wow, that would most likely be very useful information.

I assume this information requires a secure access login and is not exposed to the public?

If you can get hold of the information that would be great. My main concern, apart form the cost and aggro, is that having both dips go, potentially together, is more than a little dangerous!

Thanks for the input.


Grant

grantp said:

I assume this information requires a secure access login and is not exposed to the public?

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Theres a reason why it requires secure access

T14086 said:

Theres a reason why it requires secure access

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I assumed that this would be an 'internal to Fiat' resource and so would be very surprised if it was open to all. But I could have been wrong!

I sometimes wonder (with nearly all manufacturers) whether the majority of dealers and service agents are aware of such resources or, if they are, simply don't trust them to be useful.

The thing about knowledge bases is that it is difficult to know whether a record exists because the problem is so common that someone somewhere finally just HAD to stumble across the cause or because it is so obscure that it attracted the interest of a particularly keen investigator who likes a challenge.

Mostly I suspect they contain the obvious and self evident problems and resolutions because such things are the easiest to write up and fulfill the need of the director who decided that the company must have a "Known Problems Knowledge Base".

I could be wrong.

Thanks for the input.


Grant

'known problems' can be dangerous though Grant....ok 90% of the time the 'fix' works but when you least expect it it doesn't work & whose going to pay for the parts/labour then pay again for the correct repair........the customer

Agree with knowledge base as yes it is very useful but any fault/diagnostic should be carried out individually & only when all avenues are exhausted then you can seek help.

My n/s dip beam bulb blew followed by o/s next day but since then all has been ok (I did tighten/clean relevent earth points) .....must get around to reading that service news one day

T14086 said:

'known problems' can be dangerous though Grant....ok 90% of the time the 'fix' works but when you least expect it it doesn't work & whose going to pay for the parts/labour then pay again for the correct repair........the customer

Agree with knowledge base as yes it is very useful but any fault/diagnostic should be carried out individually & only when all avenues are exhausted then you can seek help.

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I totally agree. I have the stories to tell ... but don't want to bore you.

Some years ago I worked for a software company involved with field service engineer management and one of the components of the system was a product we called Diagnostic Assistance. Very clever stuff with all sorts of probability analysis based on symptoms, potential diagnosis and actions.

The difficult things were firstly to work out how to effectively and consistently code the inputs and secondly how to get the engineers to provide the information that would make it all meaningful.

Of about 6 major clients who bought into the concept I think only one had a really good go at it (it was the only part of the system they bought) but I'm not sure they really made good use of it before they were sold off and split up.

Too difficult for most people or, if made workable, of too little value because it only tells people what they already know - the 90% not the 10%.

T14086 said:

My n/s dip beam bulb blew followed by o/s next day but since then all has been ok (I did tighten/clean relevent earth points) .....must get around to reading that service news one day

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Can you make it this month? - after that we may not have the car and I would like f possible to see the problem resolved before passing it on ...

In fact if you want a vehicle on which to test the solution this one should shortly be available ....

Out of interest, which are the relevant earth points you refer to? Certainly something I could have a go at if they are reasonably accessible.

Great input! Thanks.



Grant

grantp said:

I totally agree. I have the stories to tell ... but don't want to bore you.

Out of interest, which are the relevant earth points you refer to? Certainly something I could have a go at if they are reasonably accessible.

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Not at all...best way to learn is from other peoples experiences

Earth (multipoint) is behind n/s light on inner wing (look down) wether this was cause I cant be sure but been ok since as mentioned............shouldn't of said that,bet they blow again tomorrow

T14086 said:

Not at all...best way to learn is from other peoples experiences

Earth (multipoint) is behind n/s light on inner wing (look down) wether this was cause I cant be sure but been ok since as mentioned............shouldn't of said that,bet they blow again tomorrow

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OK, thanks for that. I'll check it out just as soon I can get at the car for 10 mins ...

As for the experiences .... I agree but some of them require a book for completeness!

I have mentioned a couple of other threads here today.

Random engine cut out due to broken earth strap from engine.

Oscillating engine revs on an old Sierra (from when it was almost new and for about 7 years after) that turned out to be a badly fitting vacuum pipe.

4 clutches and a recon gearbox on the same Sierra over about 80k miles which turned out to be simple because the original clutch pressure plate was faulty but had never been changed.

A photocopier that was being prepped for an important demo and woprked perfactly out of the box until we went to get some lunch. Came back and it was terrible. Top engineer that was working on it started diagnosis at level 4 and adjusted everything to fix the problem. 2 hours later, still terrible, I spotted a spare connector on the wireing loom (there were many spares depending on the model) that was now lying suspiciously close to a micro-switch. Had obviously been loose and dropped off giving the initial symptoms but that would have been level 1 diagnosis ...

The VX Omega that started to consume batteries. Anything over 6 months old and the battery would go completely dead over night. To the point where the central locking did not work. The key would not unlock the driver door for some reason to the only way in was through the boot. I became an expert and much more agile than I thought possible .... ended up disconnecting the battery overnight every night.

Did not need the car for 3 days so left it with the dealer for checking. Got a call at 8:15 the first morning saying their electrician had seen this before - dodgy heated screen relay, he'd changed 3 and never had a comeback. I thought it odd for the HS relay to be in play in the middle of summer but went with it. Lighter wallet and come the autumn the problem was back and another battery stuffed.

In the end I realised that this only occurred during or just after wet weather at any time of the year. And then, doing something else, noticed that the wiring to major parts of the alarm system, now being somwhat exposed due to the plastic insulating shrinking with age, were in the inner wing area right beneath the scuttle drain hole ...

Better still the siren was directly underneath a crack that had developed on the plastic scuttle trim panel so that when water was draining away it would seep througn the crack and drip right across the connections.

Problem solved with a good blast of WD40 ...


The boot access practise came in useful when the alarm started to activate randomly and refuse to go off until the battery was disconnected. Once at Midnight as I was passing a truck on the M11 having just left Stansted Airport after a long day working and travelling.

Had to disconnect every night again. I was offered 3 different expert diagnoses, all expensive for a car that by then was worth very little. Thought it best to change the car - but not until I had used it for a couple of track days.


There's material for a whole novel in the story of the engine work on the Omega which ran to 3 months and something over 1500 quid as part of what started out as a cam belt change added to a regular service.

With the Omega, and the Senator I had before that, I was doing quite a few miles so ended up at the service reception quite often dropping off or collecting.

If I had a pound for every time some poor customer with pushchair and kids in tow was told that their nova/corsa/astra/cavalier/vectra needed a new 'throttle body' I could have retired years ago.


But then my experiences with Ford dealers before that was not much better. The wife has had some interesting experiences with Citroen dealers and ... well, I could go on but I don't suppose it would be anything new to you.

Of course I regularly make mistakes in all sorts of areas along the lines of not bothering to check the 'it can't possibly be that' item, though it nearly always is! Now I try and stop myself starting anywhere on the diagnosis map other than the very start.

Shall I offer the central heating and boiler examples ...? No, too far OT and it's late.

Thanks again for the advice.


Grant

Had a look tonight- it's Service Bulletin 55.04.03 "lower beam lamps- burnout"

It involves cutting and bridging a part of the harness going to the fusebox with a supplied loom to prevent over-supply at the headlamps. It's too in-depth to describe here (plus only Fiat trained Techs are allowed to perform such mods), but it should only take approx 30mins plus the cost of the short harness at your local Fiat Dealer.

Hope this helps.